Installing extended Bow Roller? Which ground tackle rig?

M

Major Tom

New member
Hi, my initial question is, if I get a longer bow roller that extends 2"-4" further past the bow, is that OK, or will the extra leverage when weighing anchor cause problems?

My new-to-me 22 has what I believe to be the stock bow roller (15 3/8"), and the boat came with a rather small fluke anchor, maybe 8 lbs. (and 125' of unmarked 1/4" chain... no marking whatsoever). We like to overnight on the hook a lot, primarily in lakes. I never had a bow roller or windlass, just human power and a large anchor locker so the rode jsut dropped in neatly as I pulled. I already have a 22 lb. fluke I have leftover from my last boat, which is great for the majority of the boating I do, makes a great set in the mud and sand we have around here. Never ever dragged. But right now the fluke tip is about 1/4" from the gelcoat with the stock roller. I need to get that baby a little further from my new pride and joy.

So I want to replace the bow roller to accommodate this and other larger anchors. Thanks to Sunbeam and others I'm looking at the Seadog 328064, which is 4" longer than the stock, total 19" and change. I'm thinking that I use the existing mounting holes in the deck, mount this roller so it's about 2-3" or so further out (drilling new holes in bow roller as needed), problem solved.

But I see 2 possible problems:
1. I sometime need to motor forward a bit, SLOWLY, slightly past the "straight down" rode position, to break free. So that puts some pressure on it.
2. Down the road, when I add a windlass, that's a bit more leverage on the roller, and consequently on the deck thru mount.

One thing to note is I've occasionally gotten hung up on sunken trees or extremely large limbs. I guess the bottom line is when that happens, whether with a windlass or not, I simply shouldn't motor forward past the straight point. If I need more leverage, just reduce rode tension (easier said than done in a gale, when near shore), tie to side cleat, and break free... exactly as I've done it with my other boats.

Am I on the right track? Or should I NOT extend the roller, due to more force on the deck (and the potential for bent rollers too, which I'd like to avoid). Or should I just bite the bullet and do as Sunbeam did, keeping the roller length past the bow the same, get a Manson 15 lb. Supreme, which appears to have maybe 1-2" clearance.

I do intend to get a 15 lb. Manson Supreme at some later point, and a windlass, probably the lewmar profish 700 as many have suggested. But for now, I'm just trying to upgrade my ground tackle system to something that will allow me to sleep at night... figuratively and literally!
Thanks!
 
I would keep your present bow roller. Get the 15lb Manson Supreme (best anchor I have ever owned and I've had a few). Change your chain to 35' high test. 250' of 1/2" eight plaid rode. Get the best high test shackle you can. I forget the name of mine, it has a red pin.
Down the road when you get a windlass, this set-up should work. I don't operate a windlass as this set-up is manageable by hand for me.

Martin.
 
I believe the MS is self launching from the stock roller. But I do not know how close or far the 'pointy' bit is from the gel coat when self-launching. Because I launch and recover by hand, I always make sure the anchor does not hit anything.

Martin.
 
First, I would not worry about putting more leverage on any of the rollers. The loads forma C Dory, even in a gale, will not be an issue.

So if you buy a roller 4" longer that is fine.

The 1/4 chain, you have is Proof Coil--100 or so feet was standard sold for boats in your area by Cutter Marine--the idea to get the bow down. I don't think it is all that good an idea, and my boat (2006) should be very similar to yours, with the same stock roller. That 1/4" PC chain is securing my trailers etc. It works fine anchoring now, but only the G4, High test will fit the gypsy of the 700, and most other windlasses.

I do have the 8 plait and G4, because I have a windlass and 300 feet of rode. But what you have will work fine.

I suspect that the "fluke" anchor you mention is a Danforth type. Most all anchors have flukes. The Danforth type, is not necessarily the same as a real Danforth Hgh Test--which is the Danforth Anchor to have. That does not mean that what you have, especially in 22# will nor be fine--it should be. I am using an undersized "Boss" anchor--similar to the Manson Supreme in 10# Has held in all but one place--better than Delta or Danforth.

Never leave the high load on the windlass--always put a high load on a cleat. Windlasses are not made for high loads--at least these that we use on the C Dory.

If you have to power out an anchor. Cinch it up as tight by hand, and keep the rode/chain snubber on a cleat, and power the boat forward or back, with the anchor right under the boat. If really hung up on a cable or tree, that is a story for another time, unless you want to discuss it at this time..

The Manson, or Boss are both self launching, unless they are hung up on the bail. I also like the roller that Marc Grove mentioned, but am not certain that the shank of the Manson supreme will not be too wide for it. I just jam the Boss/Manson/ into the bail, and this works fine. In any case, one should have some attachment or safety for the anchor when running or trailering. Thus, someone has to go forward to release the anchor--this may not necessarily be at the precise spot you want to drop the anchor--it can be previously.
 
Thanks for all the great ideas! BTW, the "fluke" anchor I have is a Fortress style but made by Seachoice. After some further research and thanks to an older post by Sunbeam, I'm 99% sure the stock bow roller I have is the Seadog Seahook Style, 15-1/2".

I think I'll go ahead and order the MS and about 200' of 8 ply rode, shorten my existing chain to about 30', and see how the MS fits my roller and bail.... if an issue then I'll replace the roller too. Think I'll try anchoring by hand at first and see how it goes.

So now, after taking the boat out the first 2 times, I just have a couple of other questions:
a)will the rope rode fall through the hawse hole as I retrieve? (I doubt it, and boat and trailer at my mechanic's shop now for some brake and bearing work, so I can't try it). Seems like most of you use a milk crate on deck or similar rig... boy, that just seems like a lot of work to me. (I'm starting to miss my large Sea Ray anchor hatch!) Guess that's why a windlass makes so much sense on the CD22...? I'm sure I'll want to add a free fall windlass in the near future.
b) When going forward to the anchor (windlass or not...even windlasses seem to need a little tweaking on occasion) there's a pretty good gap after letting go the pilothouse rail to get to the forward stanchions... enough gap to easily fall overboard in weather. And I've spent more than my fair share of time on a pitching bow in rough water. Has anyone found a good remedy for that, by either adding a handhold, or a safety line from stanchion to pilothouse rail, or some other idea?

I probably wouldn't think twice about it, except for an experience I had many years ago, that taught me how important it is to be able to drop anchor in a matter of seconds. I'll note it here in case anyone can be helped by it.

We were docked for several days on an island on Lake George NY. I'd spent decades on the islands there, know that lake like the back of my hand, but never stayed at this particular dock. Usually it's a pretty mild lake, maybe 3 footers on a really rough day. It was calm, weather report called for a 20% chance of mild thunderstorms that night.

Woke up at 3AM to the sound of wood splintering. Went on deck, sustained winds of 40-50 mph+, 3'-4' short period waves, low clouds, pitch black. The waves were dead-on broadside, my 23' 4,500 lb Sea Ray was bashing into the dock... the fenders were protecting the boat but not the dock. And that state-built dock wasn't going to take much more. After waking the family, life jackets, quickly running through the procedure with everyone, etc., I started her, and then I was able to push the bow off (a major challenge), push the stern just enough for clearance on the drive, grab the stern rope, and jump on. Ran to the helm, put her in gear, and rejoiced that we'd avoided a potential catastrophe as we slowly motored away. About 10 seconds out, in the clear, 40' under the keel, and we felt a very loud bang and the engine died.

After trying to restart (no luck) I immediately realized I had about maybe 30 secs before we would be hard on the rocks. I was at the anchor locker within maybe 5 secs (good handholds all the way, thank god), anchor in the water in another 5, then about 10 more until I had enough scope to slow us down and then set it. Whew.

By the time I made it back to the cockpit my son had grabbed a flashlight and figured out that when I quickly threw the stern rope loose in the corner of the cockpit as I jumped in, while I was running to the helm to get us off the dock, the wind had picked it up and blown it into the drink... or maybe the wind caught it as i threw it in the corner... and then it got fouled in the prop. Never knew that could make such a bang! We got the rope clear, restarted, pulled anchor, and motored back to the marina ( a very rough ride). No damage to drive or engine. I felt very, very lucky.

I guess my point is, I learned the hard way. I always want to be able to get my anchor in the water in 10 seconds or less in an emergency, regardless of sea conditions. So I'm eager to hear of any ideas that help that.

And even when I install a free fall windlass, I think it's still important to be able to drop anchor manually, quickly, in an emergency. (I guess a 2nd anchor in a bag or milkcrate can facilitate that, but you're still faced with getting up to the bow.) Or, what about deploying a sea anchor... when you need to do that, you're usually already dead in the water and you're facing some rough seas, and you need to get up to that bow cleat.

One idea I had was to permanently mount a line from the bow cleat, to the mid-ship cleat near the helm window. So maybe I could pass an anchor through the window and deploy that way? Seems less than ideal though, IMHO. Well, hopefully you folks have some better ideas!
Again, thanks for all the help!
 
The anchor rode will easily fall thru the deck pipe. (Assuming that you have the larger of the two which were installed. The chain you have will probably not work on the windlass. I have had both free fall and power down (the free fall will also power down). Since I am in shoal water most of the time, I rarely used the free fall. If you do a lot of fishing free fall is a nice feature.

I like to make a piece of canvas between the v berth and top of the anchor locker forward, so no chance of rode falling onto the bunk.

No problem leaving the anchor ready to self launch--if you want, it is easy to make a rig which will require only a simple pull on a line to allow the anchor to free fall or power down.

On all of my C Dory's the on the the first things I do is to put an 18" handle on the front corners of the pilot house and on the aft corners. I always want to have a hand hold as I go forward. I learned that over 70 years ago.

I carry my 3 spare anchors (fortress/guardians) under the dinette floor, along with 3 spare rodes and chains. One of the Fortress is assembled, and ready to deploy on seconds, with the line attached.

On a few of of my boats have I had a milk crate or tub for anchor lines. Most of these were racing sailboats, where we rarely anchored. I have never used that on any of the 4 C Dorys' I have owned.

Hand rails aft:
IMG_0622.sized.jpg

Hard rails forward:
C_Dory_25_AC_and_railing_005.jpg

Side view of current 22, with hand rails on cabin top, Davit and 9 1/2' dinghy on top aft of radar pedestal:
DSC05851.jpg

Sunbrella canvas top of anchor locker forward end of V berth on 22, with both deck pipe and windlass.
 
Thanks, Thataway. BTW I've read a lot of your posts, and I really appreciate all of your info, and your detailed answers... really good stuff! I really like your forward hand rails, I think I'll do the same. In fact, I like your entire rig, with the davit and dinghy! Ahhh, so many projects to do, so little time!

I think I have the smaller hawse hole, it's oval, roughly 4" x 3". I guess I'll wait until I get my boat back from my mechanic, and try a few tests. Don't have any 8 ply lying around but I'm guessing 3 ply will give me some indication.
Again, many thanks!
 
You have the large deck pipe. The small one is just a little over an inch in diameter.

There is a great deal of difference between the 3 twisted strands nylon rope and the 8 plait rope. The 8 plait is more like braided, is very supple, and stores in half or less of the space.
 
a)will the rope rode fall through the hawse hole as I retrieve? (I doubt it, and boat and trailer at my mechanic's shop now for some brake and bearing work, so I can't try it). Seems like most of you use a milk crate on deck or similar rig... boy, that just seems like a lot of work to me. (I'm starting to miss my large Sea Ray anchor hatch!) Guess that's why a windlass makes so much sense on the CD22...? I'm sure I'll want to add a free fall windlass in the near future.
b) When going forward to the anchor (windlass or not...even windlasses seem to need a little tweaking on occasion) there's a pretty good gap after letting go the pilothouse rail to get to the forward stanchions... enough gap to easily fall overboard in weather. And I've spent more than my fair share of time on a pitching bow in rough water. Has anyone found a good remedy for that, by either adding a handhold, or a safety line from stanchion to pilothouse rail, or some other idea?
Click to expand...

I have never gone on the deck to drop or retrieve my anchor. I had a rubber feed bucket wedged between the centre cleat and raised deck area and that is where I stored the rode.

I also had a short light rope tied to the anchor that I used to secure the anchor in place.

I just climb through the hatch and I can reach to untie the anchor and let the rode out. On retrieval it was easy pull the anchor while standing on the V-berth and dropping the rode into bucket.

This year I installed a windlass and now I am looking for a new bow roller.

I launch the anchor from the hatch and I drop the fenders from the cockpit and I keep the bow line in the cockpit.

I pretty much NEVER go on the deck or along the side of the boat. Because I captain my boat without crew I think it is very important to have everything set up to reduce the chance of unintentionally going swimming.
 
Hi Gypsy,
If I am solo, I always make sure the boat is stopped before doing deck work. I then hang my 'hook on' ladder over the gunall before going topside. I also have a length of thick knotted rope attached to the grab bar by the door and hanging down by the ladder. If I take an unexpected bath, I have a way of getting back onboard.
I think you have a swim step, so you are ok. Maybe this info will help others.

Martin.
 
I think you have a swim step, so you are ok.
Click to expand...

I didn't have a swim step last summer so it was a project I really wanted for this year.

It is custom made and only 16" wide, but I can't believe how much more relaxed I am to have it there.

I would love it to be bigger, but even though it is small I have found it very useful.

Hopefully, I will never need it in an emergency - but I know it is there.

I really like your idea of the knotted rope hanging down.

None the less - I still like knowing I can do everything from the cockpit or the hatch.
 
Thanks for the info. Since my original post I've done a few minor mods, and I think I'm figuring out what works for me. A few thoughts and updates, in case it helps someone:

You're right about the hatch, I've tested it out on the water and it's really easy. I also ordered the Lewmar pivoting bow roller, and Manson Supreme 15 lb. Going to use that by hand until I have time to install a windlass. I currently have some 3 ply rode, that does drop down the hawse OK, only when soaking wet... but if you're not going really slow and carefully some rode still falls on deck instead of the hawse. Not a big deal, and it's workable until I get a windlass.

Single handing... absolutely right about the ladder issues, engine in neutral when leaving pilothouse, etc. Definitely have a ladder you can easily access from the water at any time, that's crucial.

I'm now in the process of installing an Amarine 4 step telescoping ladder (from amazon) to replace the factory 2 step. Although i wasnt' lookign to save $, it was only $85, and I was surprised at how solid it is, the mounting bracket is much thicker and sturdier than the stock Garelick 2 step I'm replacing... in fact the whole ladder is much stronger, and it telescopes much more smoothly than the Garelick, which was always a pain to stow. Plus, I'm just under 6' and with the waterline at my neck I can reach the bottom step almost without bending my knee. The only negative is that I wish the ladder was slightly wider, but I really don't think that will be an issue. Also, given the cheap cost, I wonder how the stainless will hold up. Will update after I actually try it in the water.
Thanks, everyone
 
I modified my stock bow roller to make it self-launching. I wish that I would have replaced it with a hinged roller when I had the hardware off and the front bulkhead removed this winter. I've used those in the past and don't know why they are not standard. For a few dollars more, they make almost any anchor self-launching. The exception, unfortunately, might be the Fortress anchor, which can be too light to pull the chain out.

That was my basic problem when using a Fortress. So what I did was add "cheeks" to the front of the roller. The bottom of the roller has flared "ears" about two inches long. I pierced the "lobes" of the ears and added 2" round discs. This made the anchor draw up tight 2" further out from the roller, which was enough to make a light fluke anchor self-launching.

All that said, I wasn't as happy as I thought I would be with the Fortress as my main anchor. Reason is that I was anchoring in shallow areas with large amounts of dulse, kelp, sugar wrack, etc. on the bottom. The fluke type anchor doesn't have the weight to get through dense vegetation. On my last morning on Quatsino Sound, I pulled anchor and am quite certain that my hold was based entirely on the anchor and rode fouling around the vegetation. Not a speck of mud on the anchor and a wheel barrow full of sea weed.

I just bought a Vulcan. What a difference. The 4kg fits the roller perfectly (although the 4kg is only big enough for the CD 16). Even the next larger Vulcan might fit the 15" roller. Because of the shank angle when in draws tight, I don't think the larger size would hit the deck when pulled in with a capstan.

It's a vicious looking piece of equipment that might scare away the kelp.

Mark
 
Cool idea on the "cheeks", I'll have to remember that if I need it.

Yeah, I debated a bit on getting the self-launching roller, but when I got the Manson Supreme, even though it's supposed to be self-launching, my tests in the driveway showed me it may occasionally not launch. If I'm going to the trouble of installing a windlass, I want it to work virtually every time.

The Vulcan looks like it means business. Haven't tried my Manson yet. I think either of those, when properly set, will allow a worry-free night's sleep.

PS I found a cool little anchor/drift app for my phone, it's called Anchor Lite (free)... so far in my dry land tests seems to work great. A nice backup to the gps/chartplotter.
 
Back
Top