insurance and lithium batteries

[Robert H. Wilkinson]

An interesting article on your insurance and installing lithium batteries.
https://marineindustrynews.co.uk/insura ... 1O6DO-qOzs

 

[hardee]

Interesting. Thanks for posting that link.

On my boat, NO batteries are left to charge overnight, (phone, tablet, camera etc.)

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[thataway]

Unfortunately the author didn't understand the different chemistries and the risks with each. Read the "comments" for more accurate information.

The Li batteries used in boats and RV's (now are often standard or an option are the LI Fe PO4 batteries, which have minimal risks of fire or explosion. Consider the FLA batteries if abused can both explode and burn.

The Key to any battery success or failure, is the way it is installed, the way it is charged and discharged (Good Battery Management systems) and a quality battery to start with.

 

[Robert H. Wilkinson]

Unfortunately the author didn't understand the different chemistries and the risks with each. Read the "comments" for more accurate information.

I didn't originally read the comments or even the entire article. He did make some good points though - such as yachts being built to high standards with the big problem being the toys and gadgets supplied/installed/used and charged by the owners and their guests. Also that when compared to FLA these batteries are in the prototype stage still with a lot to learn yet.

My career involved dealing with insurance companies. In fact my trade was pretty much dominated by them. I can tell you they do have a lot of power and influence. If for whatever reason they decide you are a risk they don't want to take then they will not insure you period. Doesn't even matter if they understand the risk as well as you or not. Also once you have been cancelled or declined by an insurance company it is often hard to find another company that will take you. This is common with home insurance in particular. Different company's do have different risk tolerance guidlines and areas of market preference. When setting up my homes off grid power I had to submit a proposed draft of everything from diesel fuel storage/generator/underground wiring to house/invertor/charger/batteries/breaker box/transfer switch,etc. After everything was installed(by licenced pros) they came to inspect it and took pictures including brand and model/part numbers of all components. This was another thing pointed out in the article - talk to them and explain what you are doing.

Regards,

Rob

 

[Foggy]

Risks from proper mfg, storage, handling and charging lithium batteries may be
decreasing, but, if you're unlucky enough to have a fire from one, when they're
hot, they're hot. And, even on a boat (in the water), some water around isn't much
help. Your onboard extra in a box Jabsco or Seaflow 3 GMP or even the Maxzone
1100 GPH would need some frantic assembly but then simply wouldn't do the job.

The above referenced article does not mention the Morris, IL plant fire (June 29,
2021) where some 100 tons of multiple sized lithium batteries caught fire and
burned the entire old paper plant down.

www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/nearly-10 ... e/2543694/

The extreme heat with explosive potential and toxic gasses make these fires
anywhere extremely dangerous. My time spent with a local FD, I witnessed my
fire fighter colleagues were not well prepared to deal with lithium battery car fires.
The batteries are hard to get to underneath the burning vehicle and, even if
extinguished, can reignite once on the tow truck. One lithium battery car fire can
tie up multiple tanker trucks supplying water, totaling thousands of gallons, to
control or extinguish the fire and often special chemicals are needed. And, it is
not unusual to not attempt to extinguish a lithium battery fire; instead evacuate
people as needed, limit the fire spread and minimize local damage.

Aye.

 

[hardee]

"Meddle not with the issues of the dragon, for you are crunchy, and taste good with catsup."

Foggy, I couldn't agree with you more, especially after being well fried.

And on the burning lithium batteries. They are on of the hardest fires to fight, with considerable safety concerns, and reignition probabilities. And adding water does little to extinguish them.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[pcg]

Yes, lithium battery fires in cars are scary and hard to deal with, but keep in mind that the current battery technology in cars is NOT LiFePO4, which is inherently safer.

 

[Foggy]

While lithium-ion batteries have become the preferred battery for solar backup,
the type of lithium battery makes a difference. Goal Zero Yeti's use a lithium
nickel-manganese-cobalt-oxide (NMC) battery, while the Bluetti AC 200P uses a
lithium iron phosphate(LiFePO4 or LFP) battery.

NMC battery: older, fewer charge cycles
LFP battery: newer, safer, many more charge cycles

Then there's lithium carbonate and lithium citrate. These drugs, and others,
are prescribed to treat bi-polar (manic-depressive) disorders.

85% of the world's lithium comes from China, Australia and Chile. Interestingly,
Elon Musk tried to get his own private Li mine in NV for Tesla, maybe other uses,
but may not have been successful. On the horizon, to replace Li, is sodium.
It's much more plentiful, next to Li on the periodic table and tastes good on just
about everything.

Aye.

 

[Pat Anderson]

What Dr. Bob said - lithium ion (Li) batteries are the ones involved in the fires, not lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4). It is incorrect to generalize that all "lithium" batteries are dangerous and would risk denial of insurance coverage.

LITHIUM IRON PHOSPHATE VS. LITHIUM-ION: DIFFERENCES AND ADVANTAGES

 

[Foggy]

W e l l,

In general, lithium iron phosphate batteries do not explode or ignite. LiFePO4 batteries are safer in normal use, but they are not absolute and can be dangerous in some extreme cases. It is related to the company's decisions of material selection, ratio, process and later uses.

….the possibility of short-circuiting from materials and batteries is inherent.

Elemental iron can cause the micro-short circuit of the battery, which is the most taboo substance in the battery. This is one of the main reasons why Japan does not apply LiFePO4 to the powerful lithium-ion battery.

https://www.grepow.com/blog/can-lifepo4 ... s-explode/

Aye.

 

[Foggy]

Regarding

.....
NMC battery: older, fewer charge cycles
LFP battery: newer, safer, many more charge cycles
.....
Aye.

an omission, corrected by the following, which increases our understanding, somewhat, of these newer suppliers of POWER.

Lithium-ion (NMC) has a higher energy density at 150/200 Wh/kg versus lithium iron phosphate at 90/120 Wh/kg. So, lithium-ion is normally the go-to source for power hungry electronics that drain batteries at a high rate.

Aye.