Is shutting down the economy worth it?

[Gene&Mary]

I wonder why members should not discuss politics on this forum. I understand this is a boating forum but to expect members to not discuss something that is currently foremost in everyone's mind is unreasonable. Politics is so intertwined with the Covid 19 pandemic as to make it almost impossible to discuss it without straying into politics. We are all political and we all have opinions, As long as we discuss ideas and opinions, never personally attack anyone who is a member of the forum and Just be Nice, political opinion should be fair game. You can have forceful opinions and still remain with in those parameters. I for one enjoy hearing opinions that I wouldn't ordinarily hear within my political bubble.

I believe the Governors were forced to take it as far as they did. At the start of the pandemic the governors (and public) were operating on incomplete, non-existent and incorrect information regarding the severity of Covid 19. In fact during the early stages, information was being classified as Top Secret and was only being discussed in congressional committees and by congressmen in their by-invitation-only clubs. The Chinese Government was being transparent and the WHO was doing a great job. The only action being taken by knowledgeable politicians seemed to be the selling of stock so their 401Ks didn't take the hit that ours did. Everything was great and soon the number of cases would be down to 0. These are facts, not political opinion.

Given the public's ignorance of the potential of Covid 19, there was no way the Governors could have, early on, taken the measures necessary to contain the virus. The public just would not have accepted it. It was only later as the pandemic spread that the public became accepting of the measures we have now......at least by some polls 60-80% of us have.

Could the Governors have fine tuned their stay at home orders and essential businesses? Probably, but even at that time, little was really known about the virus. The objective was to lower the curve. Given the "novel" nature of the virus, it was better to over-react than to under-react. Hind sight is 20/20 but I'm on the side of over-reaction.

I expect for the next unknown period of time the operable phrase will be "Hammer and Dance".

 

[Hunkydory]

I hope the re-opening is done in a logical, consistent manner based on evidence that it will safe to do so rather than what someone feels in their head or gut.


BTW At 73 and having asthma, I'm not willing to lose my life so we can open sooner, unlike some other person postulated recently.

Our schools closed for the rest of the year. Think if they had gone back and school kids started dying left and right! :shock:

Yes, I've got cabin fever, I just shot 6 holes in my freezer. Jimmy Buffet.

Reasonable people can differ. If you disagree with the first sentence of my post, then the best we can do is to agree to disagree.

The second post was humor. Perhaps I should have notated it with JK so that everyone would understand it wasn't to be taken seriously. Had nothing to do with the consequences of the current restrictions on employment.

I have nothing more to say on the subject.

I had previously decided to not post on this thread as all our post here mean little in the larger scheme of things. Of course, I realized your 2nd post was in jest, but still it reminded me of the last 50 years of never ending critiques of how certain policies were sending into poverty the old & young with the heavy cost in death this poverty was creating & now suddenly death from poverty affecting all ages matters little compared to this virus attacking primarily the old. That, combined with your “Our schools closed for the rest of the year. Think if they had gone back and school kids started dying left and right!” when unlike the 2009 pandemic flu, that did kill a high percentage of children, this virus affects children the very least, dragged these responses from me.

These threads are neither fun or entertaining to me & I only wish I was instead, about to start a thread on “another” SE Alaska adventure, planned on beginning May 16, which is now on hold for another year. As my post signature implies & I truly believe “I will not waste my days in trying to prolong them”. I’m inwardly forced to reconcile this with cause no harm to others in the process.

I hold no ill will & would gladly share time at a gathering with you both with agreeing to disagree a normality as is my normal mode.

Jay

 

[ssobol]

... Most if not all the commentary here comes from those who are presently financially well off, only indirectly affected & easily remain home while self distancing, unlike the millions who have lost their jobs already & the millions more who will do so if it continues. ...

I for one am in the latter category of this comment.

 

[RobLL]

Often minimal political observations need to be used when presenting a proper argument. But it can be done in a non inflammatory manner*. The initial shutdown was declared at a time very little was known about the virus. It is time to take steps to open things up. Elective procedures will be starting in hospitals in Washington State. One of the big problems is that wide spread accurate and low cost testing still is not available. We have had 4 months and the federal government has failed. Governors of both parties, conservative and progressive academics all say we need better testing availability before business can return to normal. 600 infections in one meat processing plant is unacceptable.

*someone can open a political thread if they choose, then others can choose or not to read it.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

We are going nuts with a brand new boat that hasn't hit the water yet!
However I am getting many upgrades installed.

I'm in a similar situation. I've only been to the boat twice in the past month, more to make sure it's still floating than to do projects. Bought it in January and have taken it out once for 2 hours. I know, Jay is right. Boo hoo for the rich man's problems. Still frustrating and not what I had in mind when I purchased.

I share the belief that not talking politics solves nothing. We didn't talk much about racism, pedofilia, date rape, etc. and look what decades of niceness got us. My problem is how we talk politics. Both sides. I cringe when I watch MSNBC or Fox and they have a guest politician with the party affiliation shown prominently under their picture. Who cares what party? What is the idea that they are presenting. Without the lead-in "Today the Democrats . . ." or "Today the Republicans . . .", people would have to pay attention to the action or idea and not simply the party affiliation. It might require too much thought for some to process, but it would be good for some to hear an idea without an attribution to which political party presented it. It might trouble some to hear that the good idea came from Senator Pelosi (sometimes called Nasty Nancy) or Senator Graham (also sometimes called Nasty Nancy).

The other thing that troubles me on the news, and I hear this on Fox more than anywhere else, is the use of the word "hate." Those others "hate" America. They "hate" us. Hate, hate, hate. I'll bet I've heard Sean Hannity say it 50 times. Disagreeing with a policy doesn't mean that somebody hates you. But if you constantly make that assertion, for some it makes it is okay to hate them back. Cut out the labels for hate, Republican, and Democrat and let's get back to ideas.

Of course, in a perfect world I would be mooching for silvers right now.

Mark

 

[colbysmith]

The title of this thread is: Is shutting down the economy worth it?
That right there is in itself a political statement!

Gene, I agree with you. The only exception I would disagree with is:

The Chinese Government was being transparent

Unless you mean by transparent they were holding back information...

None the less I too think the WHO was/is doing the best job they can. Someway, somehow, our government needs to get their shit together in regards to this pandemic, or a lot more folks will die. We don't need an administration or politicians that are playing favoritism with PPE that is blockaded or over bid from the states and that incite protests against lawful state governments. (At the same time, we don't need local politicians that are over-reaching.) Yes, there are a lot of differing opinions among the medical professionals in the field. But I don't think there is any disagreement on the social distancing and sanitizing advice given by any of ourl Medical experts. The guy in the Whitehouse needs to stop his I'm so great rallies during the virus news briefings, and listen to the medical experts and encourage folks to follow that advice so that we can be done with this quicker! None of us were alive during the Spanish Flu, however it's history is easily found to learn. I don't like being quarantined either, and like many here, being retired and even still having a working wife, is not affecting me on a day to day financial basis. (However, my investments are taking a hit. Hopefully they'll eventually come back before I have to start drawing on them!) However, my wife is a nurse, and along with all the information shared by other medical care and first responders out there I do accept the seriousness of this pandemic. Like most of you, I also have children and know of many others out of work right now, and the financial and emotional burden it is placing on them.

The question at hand, Is shutting down the economy worth it? I guess it depends on how long it is shutdown, and how many lives we save. And what the impact will be to the economy with the after effects of allowing this virus to continue. The better question in my mind is, how willing are we to take responsibility in doing our part to stop the spread of this virus? I doubt most governors would be enacting and enforcing extreme measures if we would have just listened and followed the advice to begin with! And perhaps if we had a leader in the Whitehouse that did the same!

 

[dotnmarty]

Hunkydory wrote:
"... Most if not all the commentary here comes from those who are presently financially well off, only indirectly affected & easily remain home while self distancing, unlike the millions who have lost their jobs already & the millions more who will do so if it continues. ..."

Jay really sums it up succinctly. How can we justify,on the one hand subjecting you and your children to a deadly virus and. on the other hand, preventing those who live paycheck to paycheck from earning a living? I certainly don't have an answer much less the answer. I am left with only questions; Why were we not better prepared? Why is there not adequate testing and focused contact tracing?, why is the environment healing as humanity sickens? and finally, why are millions living paycheck to paycheck? How will our answers comport with our professed beliefs to "feed the hungry, care for the sick, welcome the stranger." Forgive the ramblings of an old fool..

 

[Nancy and Bud]

Well said Marty,

The sad part of it all is when the next crisis comes, we will still not be prepared and blame it on the previous administration(s).

That is the nature of politics. Take the credit, refuse any of the blame, it is always the fault of someone else. The buck may have stopped with Truman, but he was the last one. This pandemic affects all states. It is the largest emergency our country has faced in my lifetime.

My question is since this is a national emergency, why is FEMA not the lead agency, coordinating with the states ,to procure the necessary supplies/tests. When a tornado or hurricane sweeps across state lines, we don't say to each state "it's your's, fix it yourself"

Nancy and I went to the Biloxi area a month after Katrina and for the next 4 years doing home repairs. We saw blue tarps provided by FEMA and then the subsequent FEMA trailer temporary housing. No one state could afford to do it on their own and the country expected the Federal government step up and handle the problem.

The hero's in this story show up for work each day in hospitals, clinics, fire stations, ambulance services, nursing homes and food distribution sites. Can you imagine the toll if they stayed home?

IMO we will most likely not return to what was considered as "normal" in January of this year.

As a grandparent, I worry for my grands and what challenges they will face as they reach adulthood and independence.

 

[ricka]

Mark wrote I share the belief that not talking politics solves nothing. We didn't talk much about racism, pedofilia, date rape, etc. and look what decades of niceness got us. My problem is how we talk politics. Both sides. I cringe when I watch MSNBC or Fox and they have a guest politician with the party affiliation shown prominently under their picture. Who cares what party? What is the idea that they are presenting. Without the lead-in "Today the Democrats . . ." or "Today the Republicans . . .", people would have to pay attention to the action or idea and not simply the party affiliation.

Mark agree with you 100% , I was just trying to point out all the cost associated with this mess, whos right whos wrong will be debated forever!
My wife and I did not register with one party or the other for many years as we didn't see eye to eye with any of them all the time. We did change that so we could vote in the primaries. I used to try and talk some politics with my father, which usually did not turn out well ( He was a staunch Democrat and felt you vote the party regardless of the candidates ability )
Also agree with getting some lines in the water!
We drove down to Shasta Lake Saturday to check the ramps which were all open. So hopefully with no changes we are planning on putting the boat in for the 1st time to see how everything works. Hope the hole I drilled in the bottom for the washdown doesn't leak ( I followed all the C-Brats advice on thru hulls)
Hope we can make it up to Sequim area by July.

 

[ssobol]

... and finally, why are millions living paycheck to paycheck?....

There will always be people living paycheck to paycheck, even when the paychecks are $1,000,000 (or more) each.

 

[Gene&Mary]

Another reason I believe political discourse should not be constrained on this forum is that, as far as I have found, the C-Brats is the only on-line forum that really allows for different opinions without being personally attacked. Folks on the C-Brats really do try to follow the "Just be Nice" mantra. I will agree though that in "normal" times political opinions should be held to a minimum. These are not normal times. If I wanted to be attacked I would post on The Hull Truth.

ColbySmith- my reference to China's transparency was in reference to Trump's statements early on. At that time he was trying to boost his Phase 1 Trade Agreement with China. As the pandemic proceeded and he was failing Leadership 101 as well as failing to smear the Democrats for politicizing Covid 19, he needed to find a scapegoat for his failings. The latest likely candidates are China and The WHO. So far it looks like China is winning the Scapegoat Contest and maybe rightfully so. His accusations against the WHO have been discredited as US health representatives working for WHO in China were sending reports back to Alexander Azar in early January. Azar reported these to Trump who promptly ignored them.

 

[smckean (Tosca)]

But we, or more to the point the government, should not tell us that we cant do those thing if we wish.

That sentiment is far too simplified. There are lots of things, proper things, our government tells us we can or can not do in order to protect others even if the risk is low. You can't:

1. Yell fire in a crowded theater.

2. Drive down the freeway at 100 MPH.

3. Buy a bazooka.

4. Claim the right-of-way against a boat to your starboard because that's a shorter route for you.

5. Shit on the sidewalk.

6. Transport foreign fruit into certain agricultural areas.

.....I could go on.

 

[ssobol]

...
3. Buy a bazooka.
...

It's not the buying of a bazooka they are worried about, it's what you might do with it after you buy it that worries them.

Of course, they merely need to restrict sales of bazooka ammunition, not actual bazookas themselves.

.. 5. Shit on the sidewalk. ...

I've seen this happen in a public park. Yeah, it wasn't on the sidewalk, but it was close enough. Nobody in authority seemed to do anything about it. They guy who was doing it didn't seem to mind that a number of people saw him do it. He just dropped his pant's bent over and let rip. This was a well known national landmark.

 

[RobLL]

I have been chastised for saying, Oh for a BB gun!

But I also think that every person ought to have the 4 P's. A place for a pillow, to pee, to poop, and for their paraphernalia. An out of the way tent city with porta potties and a garbage bin. Our cities keep wanting to supply quarter of a million per units. We can't afford it.

 

[hardee]

Sandy,

Those all are things that are illegal on some level. And for the law abiding citizen, we don't participate there, BUT, unfortunately, there are those who think that the law does not apply to them. If that were not the case, we would have a whole different country. Imagine . . . . .

I hope that is not considered an attack on Sandy, or political. Seems to me, it it just plane common sense.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[smckean (Tosca)]

Those all are things that are illegal on some level

True, and so is disobeying Governor Inslee's "Stay Home, Stay Healthy Order"; just as fishing is when the season is closed.

P.S. Absolutely *no* offense taken. Frankly, you're just too nice a guy to go over that line.

 

[Will-C]

I don't blame Trump. What I think is rich is the experts (including the surgeon general) at first told us that wearing a face mask would actually be detrimental to the person wearing the mask. I get it that M 95 surgical masks were in short supply. But what a turn around. Now by law we have to wear them while in a store which is a great idea.
Surprising to me was the lack of preparedness by almost all concerned. Lack of back up PPE seemed unbelievable even on a hospital level. I guess all first aid kits now should include masks in case a pandemic breaks out while you are fishing or just boating.
Pennsylvania has opened up critical road work which I think was a good idea still there is much less in the way of traffic.
I do think we need to be smart about opening up the country by wearing masks etc. and being more aware of what you touch and washing your hands and keeping hand sanitizer with you at all times as part of your going out on the town kit.
It's funny how all the people who drive trucks, work in grocery stores and hospitals are expected to deal the the pandemic and we as the general public can't be trusted to take proper precautions. But don't worry Joe Biden will get this all straightened out. Sorry I had to do it.

 

[colbysmith]

But don't worry Joe Biden will get this all straightened out. Sorry I had to do it.

He will definitely be stepping into a mess. I think much of the problem here is we had several things in place that would have made us much more prepared, except someone dismantled those things. We had the information early, but then someone ignored it and blew it off as nothing. We still have the information, but someone would rather use his time to talk about how great he is, encourage protests, and forward conspiracy theories rather than encouraging citizens to follow some rather easy guidelines that medical experts have provided. (Which if followed would probably have prevented some of the more drastic procedures we see now.) No, I don't think shutting everything down as happened was the best decision. No, I don't think we all need to hide in our basements. But yes, I believe this coronavirus is worse than the flu, and will continue to kill people. And yes, I do blame the guy in the whitehouse for his actions and inactions and believe he is hindering a much more calm and controlled fight against the pandemic! As I see it here, we have three camps of people. The camp that accepts this virus is real and deadly, and are following all the guidelines suggested by medical experts. Hoping we can get control of the virus and get our economy ramped back up as soon as reasonably possible. A camp that still thinks this is all a big hoax or it's just another flu and people die anyway. And a third camp that knows it's real and serious, but think we should just let it run it's course; weed out the weak if you will...

 

[dotnmarty]

But don't worry Joe Biden will get this all straightened out. Sorry I had to do it.

As I see it here, we have three camps of people. The camp that accepts this virus is real and deadly, and are following all the guidelines suggested by medical experts. Hoping we can get control of the virus and get our economy ramped back up as soon as reasonably possible. A camp that still thinks this is all a big hoax or it's just another flu and people die anyway. And a third camp that knows it's real and serious, but think we should just let it run it's course; weed out the weak if you will...

I agree but perhaps there is a forth group, as a Michigander explains.

RESPONSE FROM A MICHIGAN NURSE TO PEOPLE PROTESTING ABOUT "STAY AT HOME"
I have seen 4 patients die, 5 intubated, 2 re-intubated, witnessed family consent to make 2 more patients DNR, sweat my butt off during COPT, titrated so many drips to no avail, watched vent settings increase to no avail. We are exhausted and at a total loss. Some of you people have never done everything you can to save someone and watched them die, and it shows….
You wanna complain because the Garden Aisle is closed? Your garden doesn’t matter. If killing your plants would bring back my patients, I would pillage the shit out of your “essential” garden beds..
Upset because you can’t go boating, in Michigan? You wanna tell my patient’s daughter (who was sobbing as she said goodbye to her father over the PHONE) about your FIRST-WORLD problems.
Upset because you can’t go to your cottage up north? Your cottage…your second property… used for leisure. My coworkers can’t even stay in their regular homes. Most have been staying in hotels and dorms not able to see their spouses or babies.
All of these posts, petitions online to evade “TYRANNY” it’s all such bullshit. I’m sorry you’re bored and have nothing to do but bitch and moan. You wanna pick up a couple of hours for me?
Yeah, didn’t think so.

Shout out to my coworkers, the real MVPs.

 

[Will-C]

So I guess China's involvement with the virus is a conspiracy theory? I hate when facts get in the way of political talking points? I think there might be a forth group. The ones who can only point fingers at the white house instead of realizing this was a failure by both America's political parties the world health organization, the CDC and China's documented actions to keep too much information from leaking out about the real origin of the virus itself and how it was documented to be spread human to human. People can decide for themselves who is to blame I guess. I bet there is going to be some real crying if you know who gets reelected. I'm just saying! 80,000 killed by the flu last year according to Goggle. For me I'd rather pass on than have my family and Medicare bleed money keeping me in a nursing home. That's not my idea of the quality of life. But to each his own. Most of the dying has been with people with one or more underlying conditions. Hyper tension, high body mass index, coupled with diabetes are some. It seems democratic areas of the country have suffered the worse. Part of Trump's plan I guess. I'm optimistic we will get it together. Keep the Faith