Is shutting down the economy worth it?

[Foggy]

My blood pressure is way down not being part of this 'discussion'. So is my A1C
since I'm not snacking (feeding myself love via the pie hole, only minimal beer 'at
home staying safe') feeling good about my self-discipline not arguing politics,
morality or religion.

Alternately, I could get sucked into this and demonstrate my Tribal greasy side;
too easy. This morning, I told myself I'd try to do something worthwhile.

Rather, I choose a more interesting endeavor: this post then chew on and
contemplate a bigger picture I hold to be true:

1. In the Universe, darkness is the rule, light the exception.
2. On our beautiful delicate planet, species extinction is the rule, survival the
exception.
3. In our country, Democracy is a fragile idea that takes constant attention and
care to prevent loss.
4. We Human Beings are one species on one planet.

In a world that change never changes, I hope my diet doesn't change on any of
that.

Aye.

 

[Foggy]

Oh,

5. Machiavellian, Janus-faced types are ubiquitous.

Aye.

 

[westward]

Foggy:
My diet has changed a bit on your #1 maxim, which had become my habit. At home group recently a brother suggested the following: our world- weary, cynical outlook is fed by the media; but for every example of greed, avarice, and ignorance there are probably at least 10 unreported acts of kindness, empathy, and goodwill. I personally notice the latter when I look for them. especially when I’m able to push away from my computer for an extended time.

Have a great weekend, and may your BP remain well regulated![/code]

 

[Foggy]

Oh ya. It's just that evil (chaos) and goodness (order) usually are not apparent
simultaneously (the Janus-face). Mankind (every one of us) embodies and is
capable of both (yin/yang). We live on the fine line in between dictated by our
values.

Carl Jung put it best: "No tree can have its branches in Heaven without its roots
in Hell."

Aye.
PS: Boats are cool.

 

[smckean (Tosca)]

Tosca/Sandy, I saw that PBS documentary some months ago, and that vile creature to whom you referred was Joseph, not Eugene.

Catman, thanks for catching that! I typed it without thinking. Long ago I supported Eugene due to his anti-Vietnam War stance -- indeed, during his 1968 primary campaign, while I was in my early 20s, I took political action for the first time (I knocked on doors for him).

 

[smckean (Tosca)]

Foggy,

Evil = chaos
Goodness = order

I *love* that. Is that yours or did you pick it up somewhere?

 

[Foggy]

Over time, I've learned and come to admire some of the Taoist opposing
dichotomies that make up the whole embodied in the Yin Yang symbol.

But mine? No. These are ideas that belong to anyone who finds them.

Aye.

 

[colbysmith]

On number 2. He may not be conservative, but his nominations for the Supreme Court & most of his policies are, again at least much more so than the alternatives for which to vote.

Jay, the problem here is, many of the judges that tRump and mitch are pushing thru, are NOT qualified!!! Frankly I don't care for conservative or liberal. I want these folks to be qualified and impartial and rule IAW the SPIRIT of our Constitution and laws!!!! As for policy, character and fairness will always outweigh corruption and illicit actions!

Ok, now back to boat stuff....

Colby

 

[smckean (Tosca)]

Conservatives love to give credit to Trump for installing conservative judges (as some of the postings above clearly demonstrate). However, the real credit belongs to The Federalist Society that has worked for decades to achieve this goal. Trump does little more than submit judges names from the list that The Federalist Society gives him.

In my conversations with conservatives over the years, one theme I often hear is their dislike for what they usually term "activist judges"; and yet often their goal, and certainly the goal of The Federalist Society, is to do just that. Here is a snippet from the The Federalist Society website where they define their mission:

"....reordering priorities within the legal system.......the Society has created a conservative and libertarian intellectual network that extends to all levels of the legal community."

Seems like an agenda to me. The Federalist Society seems to be using a strategy where they place ideological considerations above qualifications in order to place activist judges on the bench.....a strategy Trump is now busily implementing by using The Federalist Society list!

 

[hardee]

Today the Presidents Valet was tested positive for COVID-19. Lets see how long it takes for Trump to test positive, (2-3 weeks). Now they are doing daily testing in the WH where it was weekly before this. Just maybe, he will realize how real this "invisible enemy" really is. Trump said the staff are wearing masks, the news guy who has been in the WH regularly for the last months, said no-one or rarely, is anyone, ever masked.

Which is more important?

Comfort and Economy

OR

Health and Life

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

This probably should have gone in the "Hunkering Down" thread. My apologies, however, they are related via Covid.

Today, one day after Pres Trump was tested positive, an aid for the Vice President is tested positive. WOW, what a surprise.

I agree that there are places and times for "unmasking", (driving my myself in the car, walking by myself in keeping spacious social distance,) and I am very concerned that having thing opening up, allows travel to more than the local grocery store, and the opening of the economy encourages folks to get out and be about. On the way home from my volunteer job at the food bank I saw a caravan of 4 big motorhomes, all with toads, and all licensed multiple states away parked at the edge of town and having some kind of committee meeting along side the road. NO social distancing and no masks. I'm sure they are bringing $$$ to our community, but have to wonder what else they are bringing with.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

Sorry, I need to make a correction:

"Today, one day after Pres Trump was tested positive" should have said, Today, one day after Pres Trump's Valet was tested positive.

Today there are multiple White House staff and Secret Service agents that have tested positive, including (according to CBS News) Ivanka Trumps personal assistant. As President Trump calls it, the invisible enemy, and as much as I hate to see anyone be sick with it, Covid-19 is established in the White House, as it is across the country. Opening for the economy. Way too soon to open travel across the country.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[CariG]

Just in the first page of boats for sale in this page
There is over 1.2 million waiting to exchange hands,
Imagine that

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Just in the first page of boats for sale in this page
There is over 1.2 million waiting to exchange hands,
Imagine that

SPAMMER

 

[Gene&Mary]

It must now be transparently obvious what Trump's real reason is for pushing to prematurely open the economy despite all his health advisor's cautions against it.

Its for his re-election. That's his top priority and if there are more deaths as a result, then so be it. As we have recently read, even getting Covid 19 with its resultant after-effects is devastating.

Trump's main, and probably only, re-election plank was the economy. Without it what does he have, certainly not his leadership skills or his morals. He needs to re-open the economy as soon as possible. Make America Great Again, Again.

Even Trump's claims of a strong economy prior to Covid is dubious. Certainly all administrations lay claims for good policy results originated in previous administrations. Think of the economy Trump inherited. When the Obama Administration took office in Jan 2009 the economy was in shambles. In his eight years he built the economy into something that Trump and his cronies could hardly mess up. In fact they should have been putting away a rainy day fund, as we all are expected to do in the good times. Instead he passed a misguided tax bill that gave most of the saving to the rich, as well as raising the deficit. .

[/u]

 

[RobLL]

I am happy that adequate testing is available to all of the White House people. They need to be kept safe. But I do want to know how many tests they are doing a day, and an approximation of tests per person. That will give us an idea of how much testing needs to be done.

The country is still stuck doing only about 250K tests a day. The minimum number needed is 750K per day, and most experts are saying at least 13 million a day, and we can pretty much go back to everybody working.

Deaths seem stuck at about 2000 people a day over the last 3 weeks or so. That is pushing a million people a day, 3000 deaths a day will be a greater disaster.

Leadership, such as it is, seems to be coming from governors of whatever party. Not good.

 

[krc]

White-collar, rich, or retired: You kept your job, the stock market is not in a death spiral, you work from home and love it. Of course keep it this way even if actual mortality rates continue to decline as more get tested and the denominator increases. Maybe you can buy out some SOB and pickup assets on the cheap! A buying opportunity may present itself - keep your cash.

Blue-collar, restaurant business, businesses that interact with the public: This is all non-sense. We need to open up and get the economy going again. I have bills to pay, kids to send to college. I need the extra loans, credits, etc... to stay afloat.

Most people are not at risk. C-dory owners are probably more at risk as we as a group are on the older end of the spectrum. If I was over 70 I certainly would be sheltering in place. Does that mean everyone has to do this? I don't think so.

If we want to get serious then we should implement an immediate tax at 20% additional on all income to allow a wealth transfer to those that we are not allowing to work, including a transfer to new graduates unable to find jobs now that the economy has "stopped" (read several articles on companies reneging on job offers to college candidates due to covid). This would tax retirement benefits/withdrawals as well since it is the elderly most at risk and we are protecting that generation. Or something like that... . Of course - imagine the red tape determining who to pull the money from and who to give it to.... Would be fun politics. Especially if Disney stepped in and asked for $s as they are not allowed to operate their theme parks etc...

Two sides to every coin...
KRC

 

[kennharriet]

If the President’s main reason for wanting to reopen the economy is re-election, I’m good with that. It’s not like there is a viable alternative. I did not vote for him because I liked him, it was because I believed he would follow through with campaign promises which he did. Our economy has to reopen or this country will not be worth living in. We have to remember that the reason the economy collapsed is because it was shut down, not because the economy was not thriving. Any reasonable person realizes it is not an either/or proposition. The economy can reopen with adequate risk management. Unfortunately most governors, including conservatives have not figured this out yet. Yes many people, especially the high risk category folks will get sick and some will die. Many would have become sick and died anyway for all the reasons people have always died. Anyone always has the right to isolate themselves if they so choose.

To suggest the previous administration is the reason the pre-covid economy was at an all time high is a stretch by any measure. Rank complete. Ken

 

[smckean (Tosca)]

To suggest the previous administration is the reason the pre-covid economy was at an all time high is a stretch by any measure.

Pretty hard to call the foundation built in the Obama years "a stretch":

 

[kennharriet]

With a simple internet search one can find any statistics they want to support their predisposed views on the world. We can believe whatever we choose, but that does not make it true.

 

[dotnmarty]

With a simple internet search one can find any statistics they want to support their predisposed views on the world. We can believe whatever we choose, but that does not make it true.

hah, you can change the interpretation, but not the facts :roll:

 

[Gene&Mary]

Here's Trump's scorecard on promises kept......he's kept 18% of his campaign promises.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-mete ... uling=true

As far as I can tell all except 2 of his promises were implemented by executive order; not that Obama did much better given that both were dealing with a dysfunctional congress. At least when Obama had a favorable congress he got Obamacare thru. When Trump had a favorable congress the passed the Tax Reform Act of 2017. Despite Trump's efforts Obamacare is becoming more and more popular with the public as time passes. The Tax Reform Act is certainly popular with the top .1%. The rest of us can eat cake.....or pay for their Costco membership.

The two campaign promises Trump didn't need executive orders for are he said he would never say "Happy Holidays" and he wouldn't take a salary.

His signature promise was building a wall on the southern border and make Mexico pay for it. Despite robbing military discretionary funds of billions, here is what one of Trump's many "acting" heads said-

"On December 17, 2019, acting Commissioner of U.S. Customs and Border Protection Mark Morgan stated that 93 miles of new wall has been built during the Trump administration; according to CBP figures, at least 90 miles of that replaced existing structures."

In Trump's first week in office the president of Mexico told him to pound sand.

Trump has a ways to go before he can claim "promises made, promises kept.