It finally happened to me..FOG AT NIGHT

Thanks for the write-up Jason. Glad you're home safe. Were you and your cousin blasting your horns periodically? The lesson is to always wear the PFD when aboard-everyone, always.
 
First a good reason to use Radar, and second a good lesson to use radar when it is nice and clear disability, so you know what if what. To get the most effective use of radar, you need to be able to manually fine tune it--not just hit "auto".

Think what it was like before GPS, Radar, or any electronic nav aids?

What about AIS? If I was in an area of fog and dense traffic--especially high speed traffic --like the ferries, at the least I would have a receiver--For me, it would be AIS B for a minimum.

The only disagreement I would have with what you did: Possible put the lookout on the bow--further away from engine noise--and a little better look out forward. The use of the radio for coms--Do you have a radio that has an intercom function? Also you now are no longer standing a full time watch on channel 16, which I think is essential especially in fog. I keep 2 or 3 hand held on the boat--on larger boats, with separate stations, we had radios with com functions or intercoms. Also we used FRS or similar types of hands talkies--or something like the Eartec. (The old Radio Shack "Space Cadet" radios actually were good for this function and cheap).

Glad you did well. Always lessons to be learned.
 
dotnmarty":2moi5g28 said:
Thanks for the write-up Jason. Glad you're home safe. Were you and your cousin blasting your horns periodically? The lesson is to always wear the PFD when aboard-everyone, always.
Click to expand...

No, we didnt blast the horns. But I will now! True about the PFDs.
 
thataway":26hflj8k said:
First a good reason to use Radar, and second a good lesson to use radar when it is nice and clear disability, so you know what if what. To get the most effective use of radar, you need to be able to manually fine tune it--not just hit "auto".

Think what it was like before GPS, Radar, or any electronic nav aids?

What about AIS? If I was in an area of fog and dense traffic--especially high speed traffic --like the ferries, at the least I would have a receiver--For me, it would be AIS B for a minimum.

The only disagreement I would have with what you did: Possible put the lookout on the bow--further away from engine noise--and a little better look out forward. The use of the radio for coms--Do you have a radio that has an intercom function? Also you now are no longer standing a full time watch on channel 16, which I think is essential especially in fog. I keep 2 or 3 hand held on the boat--on larger boats, with separate stations, we had radios with com functions or intercoms. Also we used FRS or similar types of hands talkies--or something like the Eartec. (The old Radio Shack "Space Cadet" radios actually were good for this function and cheap).

Glad you did well. Always lessons to be learned.
Click to expand...

Definitely gonna buy a "bridge to helm" intercom now! That would have been perfect. I was still monitoring 16 downstairs but not the same.

Yes, I could see how the bow would be a good lookout spot. But dont you want to be as high as possible to see further. There is very little engine noise on the bridge, especially since we were just barely putting along.

What an experience. Ugghh. But very useful to me because next year I'm gonna be doing some trips to New York from Boston.
 
thataway":vsrbnt5p said:
The use of the radio for coms--Do you have a radio that has an intercom function? Also you now are no longer standing a full time watch on channel 16, which I think is essential especially in fog. I keep 2 or 3 hand held on the boat--on larger boats, with separate stations, we had radios with com functions or intercoms. .
Click to expand...

Vicki and I use the Zello app on our iphones. We created our own network and use it as 'walkie-talkie'/intercom. It does require minimum cell service but has always worked for us even in very weak reception areas, plus and it doesn't drop calls. Also comes in handy for loading and unloading the boat trailer, or group conversations with friends we are traveling with, versus tieing up channel 68 and not monitoring 16
 
Glad you made it.This is why I used my radar for 5 years whether is was sunny or not , fog or not, night or not. it was always on so I could learn how to use it. Learn how to tune it. I once used it to pick up the smoke from a house fire on shore. Now I know what that looks like on the radar. Same with rain. Pick out a nice dense thunder cloud pouring rain and see what it looks like on the radar and how you can adjust to see thru it. What else do you make invisible to radar when you adjust for rain???


and here something else to think about, not that you did anything wrong. Why did you continue to port?? Why was it necessary to get back in the FOG at NIGHT across a SHIPPING CHANNEL if you ended up just being on the dock any how?? Why was anchoring not a option? It may not have been but did you consider it? some times the right thing to do is nothing. Was there a anchorage near by that would have been safe and allowed you to wait until better conditions arose?

My father, mother and brother are all pilots. And if you ask them what kill pilots the most its " I got to" I got to get there, I got to get out of here, I got to be there. Its that mentality that leads to running into mountains, running out of fuel, etc. yes it was lack of visibility that killed them but it was " I got to" that put them there. Same goes for boating.

You may not have had a safe place to go. I dont know that area, but did you consider it??
 
I've been caught out in serious fog like that twice. Not fun, but manageable. And as for putting a bow lookout on a C-Dory 22... ain't happening! PFD's, yep. Both times, I just reverted to trusting my Chartplotter and radar. Fortunately my VHF radio also has an automatic foghorn feature and I have the bullhorn to go with it. Even though I was probably the only one in the area using it! Local procedure was to just announce position every so often on Ch 16 as a securite call, as I was near Rock and Washington Islands in Lake Michigan. (Mostly fishing boats out and about...and then the Washington Island Ferry on the west side of Washington Island.) But as some have pointed out, it's best to become comfortable with your radar and chartplotter in clear weather where you can see what your "painting". Colby
 
South of Heaven":tvr4hd0t said:
thataway":tvr4hd0t said:
First a good reason to use Radar, and second a good lesson to use radar when it is nice and clear disability, so you know what if what. To get the most effective use of radar, you need to be able to manually fine tune it--not just hit "auto".

Think what it was like before GPS, Radar, or any electronic nav aids?

What about AIS? If I was in an area of fog and dense traffic--especially high speed traffic --like the ferries, at the least I would have a receiver--For me, it would be AIS B for a minimum.

The only disagreement I would have with what you did: Possible put the lookout on the bow--further away from engine noise--and a little better look out forward. The use of the radio for coms--Do you have a radio that has an intercom function? Also you now are no longer standing a full time watch on channel 16, which I think is essential especially in fog. I keep 2 or 3 hand held on the boat--on larger boats, with separate stations, we had radios with com functions or intercoms. Also we used FRS or similar types of hands talkies--or something like the Eartec. (The old Radio Shack "Space Cadet" radios actually were good for this function and cheap).

Glad you did well. Always lessons to be learned.
Click to expand...

Definitely gonna buy a "bridge to helm" intercom now! That would have been perfect. I was still monitoring 16 downstairs but not the same.

Yes, I could see how the bow would be a good lookout spot. But dont you want to be as high as possible to see further. There is very little engine noise on the bridge, especially since we were just barely putting along.

What an experience. Ugghh. But very useful to me because next year I'm gonna be doing some trips to New York from Boston.
Click to expand...

Depending on the fog, higher can just put you into where it is thicker. Each situation is different. Put the lookout where they have the best forward visibility. A couple of the commercial boats I've driven the past five years have flybridge helms; one also has a lower, interior helm, but no radar. I'd rather be where I have radar.

Slow down - you don't want to be going any faster than you can stop the boat should something "pop up" in front of you. Use everything you have to make your position known: horn signal, VHF position reporting, talking with other boaters/captains who are nearby. You have to be able to trust your equipment, especially radar and GPS, but also use your depth-finder to double check bottom contours. AIS is your friend, and if you don't have a receiver/transmitter, you can get a "general idea" from apps like Marine Traffic, understanding that the information may not be up to the minute.

I said it before, but it bears repeating: slow down. In the foggy conditions that are frequent in the PNW, I see boats go blasting by in the fog. VERY dangerous! A log, a deadhead, someone in a kayak - these may not show up on your radar, no matter how much you've fine tuned it.

Tom's suggestion of finding a safe place to stay put should also be a consideration. Years ago, we were out in the Gulf in a sailboat when unforecast fog rolled in; I couldn't see the bow of the boat from the helm. We spent the night at anchor, came back in through the jetties (where the wave action can be snotty) in the morning when we had a bit of visibility. We had a GPS but no radar on that boat. I could hear the waves breaking in the jetties before we could see them.

Glad it all turned out OK for you. Experience gained.
 
Two other issues. One is placement of radar--I believe there was some discussion about this--either forum or PM.. The person on flying bridge is in the beam. (probably on the bow of the trawler also in the beam). Health effects of just a few hours--probably minimal, but...this is one of my objections to putting the radar on the front of the flying bridge.

The other is use of a radar reflector. (one could say I don't need it because I have a larger boat--I heard one report that the navy ship John McCain had a very low radar signature and that may have contributed to its not being recognized for its size prior to the collision.) It is easy to put one of several types of radar reflectors on the boat. We had one on our large cruising boat which we know made us visible at 13 miles to a big ship radar. (advantage of high masts, and the radar reflector being 40 feet above the water).

As to Colby's thoughts about on the bow of a C Dory. It would depend entirely on the conditions. The advantages are that the noise is much less than any where else. Before all of our modern electronics--sound was the most important part--including sounding that fog horn--which you are obligated to do under Nav regs: 35 a: In or near an area of restricted visibility: A power driven vessel shall sound at intervals of not more than 2 minutes one prolonged blast. This is not for the big ferry, but for the small vessel who does not have radar.

Our procedure during heavy fog, is also to proceed at a low displacement speed. and one person is watching on the water full time, usually thru the open front window--the person driving is watching instruments, including radar and chart plotter/depth sounder. Generally have proceeded to destination. I do worry about other craft when one is anchored--especially if there is commercial traffic.

One other advantage of a forward look out, is that they are less likely to be blinded by the back scatter of running lights. At night not only are you blinded by the particulate matter of the fog, but the back scatter off the fog, and any surface on the boat is magnified.
 
Thanks everyone.

TOM: YES!! Definitely, you read my mind. I so badly wanted to just anchor somewhere and wait it out!! BUT, initially I was in a major East Coast shipping lane. I'm talking about fishing trawlers, ferries, huge fuel tanks, container ships etc. And then after I got out of the South Boston channel I was worried about so many other variables. What if my anchor didn't hold, what if other boats came past me without radar and hit me and other things....I wanted to anchor SO BADLY but I was scared to death!!!! So I just continued on.....

Bob: Good point about the radar reflector. I'll look into that. I can easily mount one on my aft mini-mast.

Thanks James and Colby
 
Crossed the Strait of Georgia once, coming back from Desolation. Visibility about 10' max in early morning darkness. The Admiral was put in charge of watch and I concentrated on the radar/GPS. Thank God for radar and as others have done, I practiced with it in summer sun & perfect weather to get acclimated on it's limitations etc. Happy I did. We crossed, SLOWLY, without incident and upon nearing Nanaimo the screen lit up...small vessels bottom fishing. Could not see them at all. But the screen said they were there. My brother, an avid sailor, has even changed his opinion and bought a unit in the last 3 yrs for his 36' sailboat. Some of it based on our experience. Hawai'i this ain't....


My father, mother and brother are all pilots. And if you ask them what kill pilots the most its " I got to" I got to get there, I got to get out of here, I got to be there
Click to expand...
.

Ask JFK Jr. how that worked out for him, his wife and her sister. Oh, wait. You can't.
 
One cheap solution to the intercom is using apps on your phones. With the right setup, it does not require any cell service or internet connection.

I have wifi on my boat (no internet). Connect both phones to the boat wifi and then use an app such as this:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... lite&hl=en

-or-

https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... alks&hl=en

Add in cell phone bluetooth headsets and you have a wireless handsfree intercom.

FYI - If you don't have wifi on your boat, you can add it cheaply. Linksys N300 router is $24. Snip off the plug (it steps down 120v to 12v) and wire it in to your boat like any other piece of 12v marine electronics. Obviously you won't have internet since the router is only used to allow devices to communicate with each other.
 
Another fog technique we used in our CD22 (without radar, unfortunately):

We had a VHF radio with a hailer function. In hailer mode, when the transmit button was not pressed, it was a listener. It was very good at picking up noises out ahead - such as the quiet lapping of a boat headed toward us.
 
When I was a teenager - probably between my junior and senior year in high school (this was a bit more than 40 years ago), my Dad had a commercial fishing boat that we used for drift net salmon fishing in Cook Inlet (Alaska). We moored the boat in the Kasilof river during the fishing season, and at the end of the season we took it down to Homer where we had it pulled out and stored on shore during the off season.

This particular year my dad had me ferry the boat from Kasilof to Homer by myself. I piloted the boat all the time, but this was probably the first time I soloed it on a longish trip like that (probably about 75 miles or so. Our boat was a 37 foot displacement hull stern picker with a hull speed of probably 7 or 8 knots, so it was a 9 or 10 hour trip).

Since this was 40 years ago, there was no such thing as GPS or chart plotters. Some boats our size did have radar (with cathode ray tube screens) and loran (which would give you either LOP or Lat/ Lon, but we didn't have either on our boat - just paper charts and a compass. We didn't even have an accurate way of telling our speed, other than the rule of thumb I had worked out that we did 7 knots at x rpms.

So I was cruising down Cook Inlet, and about 2/3 of the way there I suddenly ran into a thick fog bank maybe 10 miles before Anchor Point. I laid the chart out on the dinette table, and with the dividers and parallel ruler I laid out a course and calculated out the compass course and the time I should run at my current heading before making a slight eastward dog leg turn to clear anchor point and head towards Homer. I made that turn OK, but although I had a decent grasp of dead reckoning navigation, I always worried if I had the magnetic deviation and variation factored in correctly. I tried to calculate the time on my new heading until I would near Homer, and settled in for a couple hours of peering out into the pea soup hoping I wouldn't suddenly see something (since I could barely see 20 feet).

About a half hour before I calculated I would reach Homer, I suddenly started hearing surf out to port. I adjusted my course a little bit to the right and kept going, and about a half hour later I suddenly started to smell freshly cut spruce. I happened to know that at that time there was a saw mill or lumber yard or something like that out at the end of the Homer spit, so I figured I must be nearing the Homer small boat harbor. I had my head out the window, navigating by listening for surf, and by sense of smell, and when I figured the time was right, I made a turn towards what I hoped was the entrance to the small boat harbor. Sure enough, i soon picked out a can buoy marking the entrance Chanel, and kept it on my port side until I could see a nun buoy on my right, followed them into the marina, located an empty stretch of the transient dock and managed to come along side and tie up. I was completely drenched in cold sweat, and that was the day I decided I didn't want to be a commercial fisherman the rest of my life, and I needed to study a little harder during my senior year of high school so I could maybe get into college. I still fished with my dad for several years after that, but when my dad finally sold the boat it was a few decades before I started getting the boating bug again.
 
I second the great story! There were a few things 40 years ago...Depth sounders have always been helpful--lead line, circular flashers, and all that we have now. Also Electronics--use of AM or Beacon Band Radio--may not have had any of that in AK.

Some of the boats got used Airplane nav systems, with their VOR which was fully deployed by 1946, They put the VOR antennas on the top of the mast, and used the VOR location services to triangulate or follow beams, superimposed on the nautical charts.

There was Loran A-(where you had to actually match Time delay lines, with an oscilloscope. Then Loran C--first the Time delay lines, and then Lot and Long conversions. Omega was also available 40 years ago, and I picked up a navy surplus set (it was huge, but I had a big boat then. Worked pretty well.

Radar was prohibitively expensive back then--and you needed a lot of power--and someplace to put that big antenna.

But as you point out--listening, smelling, and feeling (the sea waves will change as they come to points or junctions of current.

But the most frightening thing to me, was the big deep fog horn of a large ship--and then the "thump, thump, thump" of that huge prop going thru the water.

The current Standard Marine, Hailer will "listen" between the fog signals.
 
Lot's of good advice here. Something I didn't see: You should be using your radar all the time. (Yup, I know there are nay sayers, but there are 2 good reasons.) 1. You see what it shows in relation to what you can see, on the good days, and that helps build trust for those cold,dark, foggy nights when you can't see your bow pulpit. 2. If you have radar, then it is considered a navagational adjunct, and it is in the "ColRegs" that you should be using every available means to avoid a collision. (Sorry, I don't have that with me, but that topic has been runover here before, if you want to do that search.)

And if I remember right, your radar is below belt level on the Camano so I'd recommend lead longjohns if you are running the boat from upstairs. Or like you did, send your buddy up there :roll:

Something else I didn't see. Be able to run your radar in chart overlay mode and calibrate it there so you can trust what you are seeing.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon
 
From the CG AMALGAMATED NAVIGATION RULES

"Below is an amalgamation of the International (72 COLREGS) and Inland Navigation Rules, their Annexes, and associated federal rules and regulations."

Rule 7 - Risk of Collision

(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.

(b) Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational, including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects.

(c) Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information, especially scanty radar information.

(d) In determining if risk of collision exists the following considerations shall be among those taken into account:

(i) Such risk shall be deemed to exist if the compass bearing of an approaching vessel does not appreciably change.
(ii) Such risk may sometimes exist even when an appreciable bearing change is evident, particularly when approaching a very large vessel or a tow or when approaching a vessel at close range.
Click to expand...

Overlay is debatable. Some of the newer radars can distinguish what is on the chart, vs radar--but in many it is difficult. I recommend that new users look at both (if they can overlay--there are a lot of variables there--for some systems it requires a special heading indicator--others this is built in.) Also there are still some very good stand alone radars. For years the Furuno 6" and 7" Radars were the best buys--this has changed in the last few years.

In fog, I prefer to radar alone on one screen, the chart plotter on the other, so a buoy is not confused for a kayak and visa versa.

Not being a "nay sayer"

Although I agree that new users should be running radar in clear weather to lean , I don't run radar all of the time for several reasons: Magnetrons have a limited life span. I want all of my attention for on the water hazards in clear weather-- the Radar may not pick up all targets (i.e. stand up paddle boards, Kayaks and other small boats or debris on the water) The Colregs say
appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions
Click to expand...
Although I have been running radar for over 35 years, I still do turn it on regularly during good visibility to be sure all is functioning well--and to check the tuning--which you should learn to do--not just depend on "auto tune". In rain and fog, it may be optimally tuned differently than in clear weather.

Also note that the CG is now emphasizing long range scanning. I see many who buy radar, and say "i only care what is within a mile of me". The problem is that often closing speeds can be 40 or more knots. That is over 3500 feet per minute or almost 60 feet each second! Ideally two radars: one close up--and the other longer range. Some radars allow dual screen.

Do you have to have radar--no.... If you are operating in dark, fog or rain--it is sure nice to have.
 
Bob, Thanks for that post. I don't have a new radar but the one I have (RayMarine) still works well and has saved my bacon on several occasions. I have found white kayaks in thick fog and watched the WAferry out of Friday Harbor come up from behind at twice my speed. The AIS gave me the CPA & TCPA along with the name to confirm they were turning to stbd before they would reach me.

The scan long range part is new I think, but since I only have one radar, the range varies depending on my location. It is different in the Strait vs up in the islands, (6 or 12 miles for crossing the strait vs 1 or 3 miles in the islands.)

I use the radar overlay on the plotter, and have AIS on that screen too. For me that helps with tracking. I would love to have one of the new radars with the color coded hits, but the AIS triangle points in the direction of travel so that helps.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon
 
Back
Top