Lying a-hull in a 16 Cruiser

[marco422]

When I was out of Tofino last summer on my way to Hot Springs Cove I was dealing with 6-8 foot swells among the rocks off Vargas Island. I have a single Honda 50 with no kicker and wondered how the boat would act if the engine failed. I have let the boat lie in open water, but not in steeper seas.

Does anyone have insight into what happens when C-Dorys float without power in seas/swells. I suspect they would settle beam-on to seas without a drogue. At what point would this become dangerous in terms of swell height and period if the weight was fairly low down in the boat? Any experiences?

 

[journey on]

I have no idea how a C-Dory would lie ahull without power, but in those seas, I don't imagine anyone would be happy. But that's not the purpose of this post/blog.

My question is: where did those 6-8 ft seas come from? When we went from Tofino to Hot Springs Cove, we went north of Vargas and Flores Islands and that route seemed to be well protected. We tried to go around Maquinna and Estevan Points later, up to Nootka, but the wind was up and so were the swells, so we turned back. The swell dropped as soon as we got east of Hot Springs Cove.

Just a question; we thought that area was really beautiful and it must have been a great trip.

By the way, our sailboats laid right in the trough, abeam to the seas, without power or sail. Always kept some sail up after that. Except for one anchorage at Santa Barbara Isle. Rolled like heck, but we had a deep keel.

Boris

 

[irlboater]

Does anyone have insight into what happens when C-Dorys float without power in seas/swells. I suspect they would settle beam-on to seas without a drogue.

I have wondered this myself. I carry a sea anchor for this purpose.

 

[Doryman]

This is a question for Bob!

Warren

 

[hardee]

I have been in 6-8 foot seas, following off the port quarter, once, for about 2 1/2 hours, on a trip up to Princes Louisa. Glad I didn't loose power in that. On the return trip, in following 4 footers, ran across a crab float line, and went dead in the water for 2 minutes. Didn't foul the props, but had to fish it in with the boat hook, and pull in 75 feet of floating light blue poly line :evil: Fortunately we saw the line in time to hit neutral and float over it. That time, we stayed aft end to in the swells. There was some following breeze, maybe 15 knots, and the sea state was about 20% whitecaps. That is when I wished I had a full gunnel height transom/splashwell.

I have shut down to neutral in 3-4 foot waves with a brisk wind 15-20 one time, to see what happened. With 2 on board and a light boat (22 Cruiser) we maintained a stern to attitude for several minutes. I'm thinking it was mostly to do with the weather veining due to the wind. Again, a situation where I wished for a full height transom or splash well, however, nothing came onboard, even with some near breaking waves, the stern floated up and over, or the wave went down and under (You Pick), and we stayed in the stern too attitude. The waves were probably 5-8 second periods, with tide and wind running together.

The C-Dory will handle a lot more than I would be totally comfortable with, and I prefer flat water, but now I know I can do it if the situation required. Would love to get some photos of doing this but hard to when single handing, and hard to get them to look as good as it feels :roll: :lol:

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[thataway]

With the motor down, and the amount of windage forward, the boat will go quater to wind--maybe stern to wind. So it depends on wind direction and wind velocity. The stronger the velocity, the more down wind the bow will be. If you lift the motor, it will be more likely to beam to quarter to wind. To bring the bow to wind, you would need a sea anchor or paranchor, and bring the outboard up.

I would take a kicker, even if it is a dinghy motor--which will allow you to bring the boat to a speed which will give steerage way. The issue with drifting, is that there will at some point be a lee shore, and you dont' want to hit the rocks!

 

[C-Nile]

I have a CD 16, and frankly, I tried to avoid seas 2 feet or greater. I've lost power a few times over the years, and even in 2 feet seas, you'll think you're in a washing machine if your bow is not pointed into the oncoming waves. The boat being flat bottomed will punish you, because it is actually too stable in the water. That's why people use V-hulls. In my opinion, the CD 16 is for protected waters. It's a tough boat, though, and I suspect it can take a lot more than its occupants.

 

[ghone]

I'm with Bob. I shut my 19 down in 25 knots and only 4-5 foot seas off the outside of Protection Island my first summer just to see the behavior. The engine was left down. I had no canvas back and no windage above the pilot house. The boat lay about 80 degress off the wind and wallowed a lot. She was a cork however and rose nicely. To get her to be bow into the wind a sea anchor of substantial size would be good. A 4 foot stout bag type would work well I think to give a good pull. I'm thinking it's no fun in those conditions however and will endeavor to miss them on my voyages. George

 

[lloyds]

I have done the experiment in the 16 cruiser I used to have. Up in Blackfish sound north of Telegraph Cove. It was afternoon with the usual 25 knot winds and 5 foot seas. I put the 16 in neutral and the boat quickly turned stern too the seas and just rode up over them. Never seemed to try to turn any other direction. If you had plenty of sea room you could probably stay that way for however long you had room for.

 

[marco422]

My question is: where did those 6-8 ft seas come from?

My previous trips I had used the inside route and decided to go outside Vargas & Flores for a change in scenery. There had been strong westerlies earlier in the week, but they had died down so I felt reasonably safe dealing with a 2-metre residual swell off the Pacific on my nose. Unfortunately, among the rocks off Vargas, there were a lot of confused reflected waves.

With my chartplotter somewhat unreliable before a software update, I felt pretty nervous and decided to head out to sea a couple of miles. It was a lot easier there, where the swells were consistent and not as steep.

The C-Dory rode it out fairly smoothly and I felt more comfortable than some very short and steep 4-foot water at Windy Point in Johnstone Strait which had my sphincter clenched up pretty tight. At that time I had 2 vents on the front of the doghouse installed by a previous owner which always made me nervous in head seas. I have since glassed them over and feel safer with seas over the bow.

 

[Yellowstone]

Interesting thread. Dr. Bob with his trans oceanic sailing experience certainly has a better handle on sea worthy crafts than most of us including me. I've done some short trips on the ocean with sail boats and LSTs and two long trips on the Pacific from San Diego to Korea and back. On both those trips we experienced major storms lasting days, and from this experience, I came to realize the incredible power of the ocean.

My first trip over to Korea via Japan was on a WWII troopship about 780 feet long. Even that ship seemed too small when we hit a major storm in the north Pacific about 3,000 miles from land. We were not allowed outside for days on end. I can recall feeling the twin screws vibrating as the stern was lifted by waves, and seeing huge waves through the portholes coming and going. The captain had to change course numerous times, and reported to us they were jogging at around 7 knots to hold course.

We were all estimating the wave height of the highest around 40-50 feet. but it seemed that the waves were far apart nothing like chop on the Columbia River. Gaining perspective is very difficult to do with no other ship as a reference.

Later when I purchased my first 22', I would occasionally fantasize about how it would react with a sea anchor in the ocean storms I experienced earlier.I even thought there must be some way of constructing a water tight cover over the cockpit so pooping or broaching would have little effect.

The waves during the storms in the Pacific did not break like the surf coming in. Instead they rose and fell rapidly with wind blowing spray off the crests. My sense is that my C-Dory lying a hull would be one wild ride and be so scary like riding a roller coaster up and down for days.

It is interesting to read about sailboats abandoned after losing their masts and pitch poling and yet found floating days later. Of course these were self righting boats. Having experienced 8-10 foot seas with my Dory, that is my limit, but unless the dreaded lee shore was coming up. I believe the 22' would handle bigger seas. My sense is that the boat will take more than we can handle physically.

John

 

[Foggy]

Powerboats adrift lie stern-to the sea in a blow. The wind turns a pilothouse into a sail, the CD's bow would be downwind with the heavier motorized stern into the wind and seas vulnerable to being "pooped" (taking water over the stern) and being swamped.

A remedy to this unfortunate situation is to throw out a long bow rode with anchor(s) and "warps"; clothing, bed linen, a sea anchor, anything to create drag and weight to help keep the bow into the wind and breaking seas.

The sea is a lousy teacher. First you get the test. Then maybe you learn the lesson.

Aye.

 

[thataway]

Foggy,
The C Dory 25 and 22 act about te same. As you say they do go quarter to wind, but not quite full stern to wind, depending on multiple factors. There is also the factor of center of lateral resistance, with the outboard lower unit aft. It also depends on if the boat has a full camper canvas up or not. It always depends on the period of the seas, and steepness as to risks (ie wind vs current). In the PNW there can be very considerable current--on occasion more than 10 knots.

With the C Dory 25, we ran in seas which were 8 to 10 feet, steep (wind against current) and occasionally breaking. I didn't stop the engine in those conditions, but I would not worry about the safety of the boat. The boats are corks and the stern lifts very rapidly. There are very few reports of the boats being pooped--There was one from AK where they were in very steep seas breaking and took one into the cockpit.

The purpose sea anchor would be far more effective than "clothing bed linen'. In reality the boats are very agile, used often in rough weather (see the video of the 22's playing over the breaking bar waves), and don't go far offshore. If the engine fails, most of us have some kicker and get home power. It would be most unusual where I would be out in a C Dory where I had power that I would consider riding to a sea anchor.

Maybe If I was fishing offshore in AK, I would buy a Para 9 sea anchor. On the other hand in over 60 years of skippering and over 200,000 miles offshore sailing I have never had to use either a sea anchor or series drogues (for running)--I came close in an Atlantic crossing and hurricane force winds, when the seas were documented at 45 feet and were breaking--but not in a C Dory...

 

[Foggy]

Does anyone have insight into what happens when C-Dorys float without power in seas/swells. I suspect they would settle beam-on to seas without a drogue. At what point would this become dangerous in terms of swell height and period if the weight was fairly low down in the boat? Any experiences?

The original query, above, is not about running with seas and mistakenly implies a drogue is useful in large seas without power; adrift. Yes, there are variables (sea state, wind velocity, amount of canvas, hull design, windage, etc) but the basic principle is being adrift, especially in a powerboat which is usually stern heavy, in breaking seas is always dangerous. One must attempt to get the bow to weather to prevent being pooped or rolling.

One does not have to be far offshore for this to happen; in a storm, any lee shore will do nicely for big problems and I have seen several in trouble close to a channel entrance.

Aye.

 

[Foggy]

My Grandfather was an old Navy man. He taught me to love and respect the sea.
One of his sayings was: "The sea simply waits for the innocent. But it actually stalks the unprepared, the careless and the arrogant."

Fair winds and calm seas,
Aye.