Marinaut 215 Anchor Arrangement as configured by MBC

C

C-Nile

New member
This may seem a trivial topic, but my wife and I just spent an overnight in the Connecticut River, anchored in 10 feet of water in the Special Anchorage 1/2 mile downstream from the Goodspeed Opera House.

The anchor and chain arrangement set-up by Les and the MBC worked surprisingly well. Here is what we have: 14-pound Delta anchor, 25 feet of 1/4" HT chain, 200' of 1/2" Anchor line and a Windline BRM-2 bow roller. Here are our findings:

1) It was very easy to lower the anchor and chain into the water.

2) We did not need to set the anchor with engine reverse thrust. It set easily by hand. However, just to make sure, I had my wife give it a little reverse thrust, and the anchor did not budge.

3) We had several large boats pass by while at anchor. One boat was a large displacement cruiser that caught us broadside with 2 to 3 foot waves. Our boat rocked violently (at the same time we were trying to boil water for tea on our stove.) The anchor held fast. When we were anchored, our bow was pointing upstream, but after the tide had changed (the CT River is a tidal river,) our bow was pointing down river. The anchor continued to hold. I know this, because I set "tracks on" on my Raymarine chartplotter.

Now here is the best part. I was dreading pulling the anchor up, but it released from the mud with virtually no effort. I just propped open the anchor locker cover, pulled on the rode, and it is easily went back into the locker and the anchor came straight up the bow roller and into its resting position.

This confirms to me that did not need a windlass for New England, where the waters are shallow; we normally anchor in 10 feet of water or less. However, if we lived in the Pacific Northwest, we would not go without a windlass, because the water is so much deeper and so much more anchor rode is needed.

Thanks!

Rich
 
quote <However, if we lived in the Pacific Northwest, we would not go without a windlass, because the water is so much deeper and so much more anchor rode is needed.>


@ I have had several boats in the PNW. Only one was over 30' and had a windlass (brand new). When I really needed it, the %$#&*@&$ quit. With several expletives, I ordered it to work (anyone a Fawlty Towers fan?). It refused, so I heaved it. My 22 carries a 16lb Bruce, 35' HT chain, 200' half inch rode. Never a problem, as I do scout out my anchorages and very seldom anchor in more than 50'. George on 'Kerri On' carries a 22lb Claw I believe. He installed a windlass, but knowing George he has everything set up properly.

Martin.
 
Thanks Martin. The Delta is a great anchor. Works well in a lot of areas. I have used Bruce or Claw now since Bruce first came to BC in early 1980's. In our waters we see bruce and claw a lot. The charter fleets are almost 100 percent Bruce or claw or deltas. Self setting and easy to use. The big deal we used to want on charter boats in the fleet I helped start was anchors needed to be "pinch point" free. Danforths and CQR etc. novice charterers were prone to damage fingers on anchoring some charter companies had liability issues with these. Also holding in BC bottoms was a challenge with plow type or danforth type. The 11 pound delta/ claw is fine for most instances. The 16 is better for stronger winds. I like a bit of overkill on my gear and even 22 is small to other boats so its pretty easy. We stay put with the 22 down The windlass is mostly on Kerri On because my chiropractor said "stop doing that"!!!! Repetitive hauling seems to throw the back and shoulders for a loop. Yeah I get that. Also my partner Carolyn needs to be able to retrieve the gear if I am unable for whatever reason. I use a small danforth type as stern hook or spare. The 16 pound claw and rode are stored Glad to hear you are getting on the marinuat. George
 
Martin,
Initially, I was going to get a windlass, but after reading the PDF instruction manual, I grew concerned about the maintenance. You certainly confirmed those concerns. I still would get a windlass if I anchored routinely in deep water, due to arthritis I have in my hands coupled with carpal tunnel syndrome.

Martin, George: If I ever lose the 14 pound anchor, perhaps I should get a 16 pounder? My anchor held fast for conditions, but neither was the wind blowing at 25 knots.

Thanks!

Rich
 
I went the horizontal windlass due to issues i have seen or heard of seal failure with verticals. Gravity seems to want to pull grit into the workings on verticals. The horizontal is pretty trouble free. I was going to get a windlass when I got "too old" to pull the little anchor gear by hand....like when 84. My chiro suggested less back/ shoulder issues if I did it now. Good idea. It's only money. Back feels better already. I love watching that chain come aboard from the helm! The 14 is good unless you want to be off season or remote cruising then maybe up a size. I don't back down on my anchor anymore as I used to teach sailing students as with 22 lbs down there it doesn't need that. These are pretty light boats. Enjoy
 
You never know what could be in your future. We have a Lewmar VF 700 horizontal windless. We have anchored and retrieved in some fairly crowded anchorages and shallow or not a windless that you can control from inside the pilot house is the hot setup in our book. After four years a seal leaked corrosion caused our windless to malfunction. Lewmar replaced it free of charge and they explained the seals have been upgraded along with some other changes. As with most mechanical /electrical systems I would look to have the windless serviced as an every other year sort of project. I use a carabineer clip from the anchor to the bow roller bracket to hold the anchor from deploying while towing. Once we launch I remove that as I have never had the chain jump any teeth on the windless or the clutch slip unexpectedly. It's nice to be able to deploy or retrieve the anchor from the helm should the unexpected occur.. After anchoring and everythings settled down I go up to the bow and cleat it off. Our anchor is a 14 pound Lewmar knock off that has suited our needs so far as provided by Wefings. As per most C-Dory folks we have 20'/25' of chain and 200 feet of rode. Every couple months while in our driveway we soak the rode in a wash tub with some fabric softener added as the salt water enviroment can make it sort of stiff. This came as a recommondation from Jim of Wild Blue. It helps the rode soften up and lays better in the anchor locker. Some reverse the rode from the bitter end to the anchor every year if they are using a windless to prevent wear on the rode from windless use. Like Carl Malden used to say don't leave home with out, the windless that is. I mean you blow 30 to 100+ grand on boat you did not need, whats another $ 700-$1000 for windless? You might need to drop the hook in somewhere besides an anchorage of your choosing and one thats more than 10' deep.
D.D.
 
As a young guy I used to think that a windlass was an expensive luxury on a small boat. Then I herniated a disk in my lower back and quickly learned that back surgery is waaaaay more expensive than a windless (full disclosure...I didn't injure my back hauling the anchor). So last winter I had a windlass installed in anticipation of my trip to Alaska, and I'm sure glad I did. Anchoring in deep water is totally painless now and hauling the anchor is much quicker. And when I'm alone, it's easy to operate the gear and throttle while pulling the anchor up or setting it.
 
Will-C":3fohqwqh said:
Every couple months while in our driveway we soak the rode in a wash tub with some fabric softener added as the salt water enviroment can make it sort of stiff. You might need to drop the hook in somewhere besides an anchorage of your choosing and one thats more than 10' deep.
D.D.
Click to expand...

D.D. -- What a great idea to keep the rode supple! With respect to where we drop anchor, it's mostly shallow -- sometimes even less than 10 feet at low tide. Also, our tidal range is not like the PNW; it's about 4 feet.

Rich
 
Thanks for all the good information everyone.

As in all things anchor choice is a set of compromises. I'll stand by the choice of a 14# Delta or 16.5# claw anchor for the CD22 and M215. Bigger may be better but good enough is good enough. Both boats are light and have very little windage, nothing like a sailboat or flying bridge cruiser both of which would be much heavier (even in the same size) and put far more stress on the anchoring system. Both anchors are rated for boats many times larger in terms of displacement and windage.

The next step up for the Delta after the 14-pounder is the 22-pounder and I think that's more than most folks can handle by hand standing on the bow of a small boat like the CD22 or M215, especially if the waters are not calm. Someday that windlass may (or will) quit and you want to be able to handle your ground tackle without injury.

I've tended toward the vertical windlasses to reduce the foredeck clutter, because there's more pawl/gypsy engagement with the vertical windlass (and many folks do not transfer the rode over to the cleat as should be done), and because the hawse pipe that feeds the rode into the locker is under cover on the vertical windlass and I feel it dumps less water into the locker on a small boat that sees more spray and such over the foredeck. Those that have the horizontal windlasses seem to like them just fine so I can't say that my typical recommendation is the preferred one.

That said whatever combination of things works for you on your boat is really the best choice for you. I'd be very reluctant to recommend a 9# or 11# anchor but my guess is that 95% of the time they'd work just fine. Since most folks can handle 14# to 16# it makes sense, to me, to go to that level for the main anchor. Much more than that has to be a personal choice since not everyone can handle the weight if it comes down to a 'by hand' retrieval.
 
Hello Les,

I'm certainly happy with the 14 pounder, and it's holding very well in sandy bottoms. And I agree with you -- 22 pounds as the next Delta model would be way too heavy for me.

Rich
 
Will-C":1zgoh90v said:
We have a Lewmar VF 700 horizontal windless. ... After four years a seal leaked corrosion caused our windless to malfunction. Lewmar replaced it free of charge and they explained the seals have been upgraded along with some other changes.
Click to expand...

I'm currently windlass shopping, and trying to decide between the V700 and the H700 - so I'm curious as to which one you are referring to here (I'm confused because although you say horizontal, you have the V in the name and I couldn't find the VF).

Will-C":1zgoh90v said:
Like Carl Malden used to say don't leave home with out, the windless that is. I mean you blow 30 to 100+ grand on boat you did not need, whats another $ 700-$1000 for windless? You might need to drop the hook in somewhere besides an anchorage of your choosing and one thats more than 10' deep.
Click to expand...

Just for another perspective, when I think of adding gear to the boat, I think about the possible negatives along with the positives, and if I choose not to add a given item, it's not necessarily because of the cost, and/or how it compares to the overall price of the boat.

To me, each piece of gear or system comes with not only the good but the "bad." Weight, space, cost, responsibility, and maintenance are examples of factors I consider. Having a windlass can be great (and in fact, I plan to add one within the next couple of weeks), but then too, it's another piece of equipment to maintain/repair, and it's something that can break when you need it. So while you are saying that it might be a problem to need to use a windlass and not have one, I think that conversely, there can be a time when you have one and need it but it's not functioning. So there can be an advantage to having a system you know you can easily work by hand (and have practice with), especially if you boat in areas where it's generally feasible (shallow anchorages, sheltered, etc.)

I can see why C-Nile opted for a manual system in their current use scenario, and it was interesting reading their impressions (and I can also see why others opt for a windlass).
 
Hi Sunbeam,

Great thoughts and it dovetails nicely into what I was saying earlier.

I'm one that really likes a windlass, I've pulled enough anchors to last me for awhile. However, because the CD22 and/or the M215 are not a large boats it means one can use ground tackle that can be dealt with by hand. That makes the failure of a windlass an irritation rather than a problem.

If you decide you can use a much larger anchor because you have a windlass and the windlass fails then you've got a problem rather than an irritation. For some folks that limit will be with a 14# anchor, for others maybe a 22#, and for others maybe even something larger. I think it's worthwhile to consider using the largest anchor you can retrieve by hand (unless due to physical limitations that's a very small anchor, then you're going to need to just trust your windlass).

The horizontal windlass would be the ProSeries 700 (PS700). The vertical windlass with the same specs is a V700. I think the choice is a really a personal one with good reasons to choose either. I've had good luck with the V700 but I can see why folks like the PS700 as well.

Les
 
We had a pro series 700 kit Lewmar part # 6656011107-310 Defender Marine part #1748 shows $873.85 in the 2012 catalog. But when Lewmar replaced it we got a Pro Fish model 6656211107-310 Defender Marine $972.83. Bare in mind these are kit prices which include the windless,circut breaker,raise and lower switch with a contactor which is the right way to electrically install a windless so the up and down switch is not switching full load amerage to the windless. The contactor does that; the switch just switches voltage to the coils of the contactor. The Pro Fish model can be either a free fall or have controlled decent depending on if you have the pin pushed in or out on the clutch wheel. Out the pin hits a stationary part of the windless and loosens the clutch to let anchor free fall or or on the way up the pin hits the stationary part of the windless causing the clutch to tightnen and the anchor comes up. If the pin is locked in you control up and down which is the way we use it. Both models have a five year warranty. If you are in deepwater/fisherman maybe you want free fall to get it down quick to hold over a wreck or a particular spot. That's is not the case with us. Some say free falling an anchor you stand a better chance of getting the anchor fowled.. On that day when everything is perfect and the sea is perfectly flat no rain the trip up to the bow to pull anchor can be refreshing, but when the waves are up and it's pouring rain and the trip up to the bow can be oh maybe not quite so refreshing. I don't really care if other boaters have windlesses or not. As for Carl Malden that was my ill fated attempt at humor. I know I have no control over the universe. Good Luck with your choices.
D.D.
 
Thanks for the additional detail on your windlass. I'm currently undecided between the vertical and the horizontal Lewmars, but leaning toward the horizontal. It's nice to know they've made some improvements and I like the idea of the contactor. Also nice to know they gave you good warranty service.
 
Unfortunately most anchor manufactures sizes are based on a 30 knot breeze in an anchorage without any significant wave action. Thus if you are doing serious cruising, the charts are significantly undersized.

As for as what a person can easily handle--it depends on how the anchor is brought up. If you are standing on the bow, bending over, you are going to be severely limited. If you sit down, or stand in the hatch, and keep your back straight, 25 # is easier to handle than 14 #.

The windlass is made for pulling the anchor and chain up--not for holding the boat when it is anchored, not for pulling the boat up to the anchor, and not for breaking the anchor out. The anchor rode (snubber) should be cleated off--never left on a windlass period! The boat should be powered up to the point where the anchor rode is hanging straight down, and the the engine used to break the anchor out. During this, the windlass is taking up the slack rode and chain. Best to have all chain engaged when the anchor is pulled up.
 
It was great service from Lewmar, I paid the shipping to return it to their service center in Jacksonville Florida and they looked at it and said we are going to just replace it. They replaced it in about three or four days with the Pro Fish model which is slightly more money. I called and explained they had given me the more expensive model they said don't worry about it. I like the horizontal shaft models as every thing is up on top. When I replaced it I installed a backing plate underneath and made the connections using a removeable bug type clamps connectors so I could reuse the connectors instead of having to cut through splices that connect the heavy conductors from the boat to the windless. So future service could be easier. We had three years worth of use out of the first unit with zero trouble till it stopped as we had purchased the boat in April of 2009 with it already installed.
D.D.
 
I changed my mind on choice of anchors after a recent trip in which I could not get the Lewmar 14 pound Delta anchor to hold in a 15 knot quartering wind in a grassy bottom. At one moment the bow was pointed into the wind, and then a moment later it would turn broadside to the wind, dragging the anchor. With the camperback in place, the boat is like a big sail, and can really exert a lot of force on the anchor in certain bottom conditions, even when using scope at a 7-to-1 ratio. So I purchased a Lewmar 22 pound Delta, and used it in Coecles Harbor in Shelter Island, Long Island, NY on July 2nd. The 22 pounder holds so much better then the 14 pound Delta. I only had 4-to-1 ratio of scope, and the boat did not budge, even in the high, shifting winds encountered when a thundershower shirted us to the north.

On the down side, you need to use the engine to release the anchor, because it really holds like the devil. And in all due respect to Dr. Bob, who is probably in much better shape than I am, it was difficult for me to pull up the anchor, even while sitting down. I find the 14 pound anchor easier on my hands and back then the 22 pounder,

The 14 pound anchor sits very well in the Windline BRM-2 roller, but this is not true for the 22 pound model. The end of the shank digs into the deck, so I had to rig up protection. The tip of the anchor is only one precarious inch away from the bow. So I have to be very careful when deploying or retrieving the anchor that I not hit the bow and damage the gelcoat.

All the above said, for emergency deployment, day-trips, and sandy bottoms where I can use sufficient scope, we will regularly use the Lewmar Delta 14 pound anchor, which I believe is the best choice for the boat. However, in tight anchorages, and certain bottoms, I will switch to the Lewmar 22 pound anchor, despite its drawbacks (for me), because it gives me the peace of mind that I know it will hold. I'll have to figure out a way, too, to better secure the anchor to prevent it from damaging the fiberglass deck. (The 22 pounder would probably work better with a Windline BRM-3 anchor roller, which is longer (23" vs. 15.2"), but it has the drawback that it is wider (3.5" vs. 1.75"), and would not be aesthetically pleasing. It would look out-of-proportion. )

Thanks,

Rich
 
Yes, the anchor rollers/pulpits are made for specific brands/types and sizes of anchors. If you use one made for a a smaller anchor there are certain risks.

As for pulling up the extra 7 lbs--was it just the weight--or was there mud or grass on the anchor? I suspect that you are in better shape--both cardiac and back wise....

Grass is a difficult bottom to set in. In some areas I have had to dive with a hatchet and cut thru the grass, and then put the flukes into that bottom where I had cleared the grass.

Often one goes to a different type of anchor if he is having difficulty setting with one type. Two bottoms which are difficult for any anchor are heavy grass, and ball bearing rock. I was just corresponding with the owner of a Nordhvn 68 who went to a 150 lb Ronca--and was still having problems setting in grass....There are some anchors which are good for grass. I have a SS Northill folding sea plane anchor--sharp flukes and very long bills (like spikes beyond the flukes) which sets well in grass. That could be appropriate for a C Dory, but is difficult to stow. (I stow it folded)
 
Bob,

It was not a lot of grass -- there was also silt on the anchor. We just could not get that anchor to hold in those conditions. Had we used the 22 pounder, it probably would have held. As for what part ails me, it's my hands. I had to exert a lot of force --particularly in my fingers to pull on the added weight of chain and anchor. Seven pounds may not seem like much with normal hands, but I have carpal tunnel, and probably arthritis, too. Seven pounds makes a huge difference, even when I used your suggestion of sitting down while pulling the anchor up. As for the BRM-2 roller, Windline claims it also supports the Lewmar Delta 22 pound anchor. While the BRM-2 handles the increased weight of the 22 pounder, I think it is too short for this larger anchor. People should be aware that if they intend to use a Lewmar Delta 22 pound anchor on their Marinauts, that they may want to inform Les so that a more suitable anchor roller arrangement could be installed. Really, if a person wants to regularly anchor for overnight stays, a 22 pound anchor is probably a better choice, and that person may also want to get a windlass with the caveat that it is no panacea -- that there is a proper way to use the windlass as you aptly described.

As I stated previously, for me, the 14 pound anchor is the best fit, particularly since we have found that we prefer transient berths. The fortunate thing about the Northeast is that our area is rife with transient space, albeit its expensive. We're glad we have a smaller boat.

Thanks!

Rich
 
Wow, I would have headed into Coecles Harbor marina and checked with Nancy or Skylar and gotten a slip or a mooring ball.They will give you a free ride into town, nice showers, pool and picnic area with free charcoal grills. They sell charcoal at the marina store. Two dollars a foot for a floating transcient slip before July 4th when we were there. Check the reviews on Active Captain. I figured when you touted your anchor setup it might come back to bite you. A windless might come in handy since your crumb snatchers are hurtin to deal with that 22 pounder. Keep up the good work. :)
D.D.
 
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