My oberservations after my first ride on a C-25 and Tomcat

M

matt_unique

New member
I had my first ride on a C-25 and Tomcat today.

The first ride of the day was in a 2007 C-25 with a single 200HP Suzuki. We had about 1' of chop. I was surprised at the amount of pounding I felt in this chop. The ride was CERTAINLY better than my former boat (19' Bayliner cuddy cabin) but not dramatically better. My Bayliner had an 18 degree deadrise. Everything else about the boat was heads and tails better of course. I had two other boating guests with me and they agreed the ride in the chop was not that much better than my previous boat.

The next ride was in the 2007 Tomcat. There is simply no comparison between the boats in terms of ride, space, or overall "feeling". The floor level between the cockpit and the cabin is level, whereas as the C-25 cabin requires a step down, and this made the boat "feel" larger than the actual measurements revealed. The cockpit on the Tomcat was about 1.5 sneaker lengths longer than the C-25 at the longest point in each cockpit. (Ha ha, no exactly scientific, but interesting for a quick comparison). The C-25 had more headroom in the cabin by a few inches. The Tomcat sleeps 4 adults without any modifications. 3 in the queen size forward berth and one on the dinette. The C-25 sleeps 3 without modification. (I had my two boat guests climb into the queen berth with me to test this). The bathroom was the same in both. I was highly impressed with the storage space available on both boats.

The Tomcat would require some time to adjust. When cornering at a decent speed you defintely wonder if she will tip over, particularly when the inside hull is on a crest and the outside hull in a trough. Although I felt the chop a bit more than I expected even in the Tomcat, we could run at any speed straight into the chop/wind. The speed is impressive on the Tomcat. There are some quirky speeds however. When going into the chop at about headway speed you really feel the boat bumping - all the energy of the chop is transferred into the hull. At 2500 rpm, the engines are DEEP into the water with bubbling well over the steering control arms. If the engines were not sealed well, this would be a disaster in salt water. I only noticed this affect at 2500 rpm, faster or slower the engines rise away from the water.

The scupper holes in the cockpit and on the side of the hull of the Tomcat were twice the size of the holes in the C-25. I did not inspect the size of the actual drain tubes.

In both boats I was a little surprised at the sound of vibrating "stuff". The insides of both boats really squeak and vibrate more than I expected in the chop. I know every boat has their unique sounds and behaviors. Have owners found things coming loose with time?

Both boats had the cabinet work bracketed with ferris metal screwed right into the hull with zero sealant. Alas, something everyone knows about and would have fixed properly before taking delivery. The cockpit covers in the C-25 would surely leak. I don't know if the different characteristics of the Tomcat cockpit covers would keep her drier but it looked better. Again, known problems that a dealer would fix before taking delivery.

Nothing else really jumps out at me from memory at the moment. The difference in price between the C-25 and the Tomcat was $31,000 and worth it in my opinion.

I appreciate your feedback to perhaps fill in some of the holes based on my first ride in both.
 
matt_unique":3967d6yh said:
...
In both boats I was a little surprised at the sound of vibrating "stuff". The insides of both boats really squeak and vibrate more than I expected in the chop. I know every boat has their unique sounds and behaviors. Have owners found things coming loose with time?

Both boats had the cabinet work bracketed with ferris metal screwed right into the hull with zero sealant. Alas, something everyone knows about and would have fixed properly before taking delivery. The cockpit covers in the C-25 would surely leak. I don't know if the different characteristics of the Tomcat cockpit covers would keep her drier but it looked better. Again, known problems that a dealer would fix before taking delivery. ...
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I really don't know what a C-25 or a Tomcat cost --- though a 31k price differential does suggest that its quite a bit --- but I am really suprised to read about the use of "ferris" fittings screwed into the hull without sealant and that it is expected (and accepted) that fixing leaks is a given at delivery. Don't get me wrong, I think my little CD-16 is great for the money I paid but if I was shelling out the kind of money I think folks are for these bigger boats I'd have quite a bit higher expectations. Is it really the case that the market (and supply) at this level is so limited as to let this kind of thing slide?

Regards,

ken
 
I see the ferrous brackets into the hull of the CD 25 as a problem, and all of these have been removed in mine (DIY--simple to do with glass tabbing the way it should have been done at first).

In the Tom Cat, there are no brackets screwed into the hull, they are screwed into a cored floor. This does not produce the risk which screwing into the hull gives, since there should be no water standing on the floor or water intrusion into the core of the floor. But it would be best to remove these and do tabbing instead in the long run. It probably will quiet the boat some also.

Matt's squeeking sounds worse than what I experience--but maybe I am used to what there is--or with carpet, and "stuff" in the boat, it settles down and damps the noise.
 
Something's amiss on the pounding you experienced in the CD-25 in a 1 foot chop, mine DEFINITELY does not pound in that or even 2 foot chop -- but, you do have to deploy the trim tabs (mine are 50% oversize) and slow down to match the conditions (<20nmph). Other than that, yes, the TC is definitely the speed boat of the two and can handle larger chop at high speeds.
 
This is exactly what I was going to say. Tabs deployed to get nose down, slow down a bit, and we run great into 1 - 2' chop. I have to slow down more than Steve evidently, but we can run quite comfortably at 12 or more knots in the typical sloppy conditions we experience in the Strait of Georgia. Of course there is no way a CD25 can run as fast as a TC255 in those or virtually any other conditions. Also I have to question the statement that the difference in cost is only $31K - at least half that amount is in the second large engine required for the TC and I am pretty sure the difference in base hull cost is more than $16K. Whether that difference, or whatever it is, is "worth it" it strictly a personal value judgment, and highly dependent on how the owner is going to use the boat.

Dora~Jean":26isvbw2 said:
Something's amiss on the pounding you experienced in the CD-25 in a 1 foot chop, mine DEFINITELY does not pound in that or even 2 foot chop -- but, you do have to deploy the trim tabs (mine or 50% oversize) and slow down to match the conditions (<20nmph). Other than that, yes, the TC is definitely the speed boat of the two and can handle larger chop at high speeds.
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I had the opportunity to drive Dr. John's tomcat back in Dec. and the ride is substantially better than my 22. In conditions that would force me to slow down to 12-14kts, we were comfortably doing around 40kts. In conditions that would slow me down to 6-8kts, we were still able to do 15-20kts. For fishing, especially offshore fishing, the tomcat is definitely worth the extra $ over a 22 IMHO. I also like the extra interior space.
 
This 25 vs TomCat discussion comes up frequently. They are completely different animals... yes, they share a similar cabin layout and styling, but from the coaming down, they couldn't be more different. A short run in either boat will show one how it handles that particular condition. The bigger question, beyond cost difference, is: how will you use the boat most of the time?

Real world cruising speeds, time at anchor, trailering/launching/retrieving... these should also factor into a buying decision. Both boats have strong points. Money saved or spent will be a sore point only if you buy the wrong boat for the way you will use it. Likely, you will adapt your style to which ever boat you chose.

It was very interesting running with the two boats this past winter. Having the opportunity to experience both over an extended time convinced each couple that they made the right choice for the way they use their boat. To cruise together, we both had to run differently from our usual style... the TomCat slower than usual, the CD-25 faster than usual.

Once you've made the initial buy, the running expenses won't be that much different. Our fuel mileage was only marginally better than the TomCat... and had they run at a more efficient higher speed, their mileage would have been even better.

With a year under our belts (and closing in on 500 hours), we have had the opportunity to run in a lot of different conditions. As has been mentioned above, learning to trim the CD-25 for the conditions will certainly make for more comfortable running. We pound WAY less than when we first started with this boat; there's a definite learning curve. Sometimes running faster makes for a better ride; sometimes slower; often times getting the bow down, sometimes not. It changes depending on the sea condition - whether you are running with, against, or beam to the waves. The trim tabs get a work out on our boat, and make a difference with respect to wind and boat loading, too.

And regarding the squeeks: we track 'em down and try to eliminate them. That will really wear on you with extended cruising. As Dr. Bob said, a full boat sounds different from an empty boat (also runs different). We regularly tighten the screws on the bulkhead separating the v-berth from the cabin (the main source of our squeeks)... seems to need it about once a month. And while we're talking about it, we also regularly go over the water connections... those seem to need some tightening after a lot of running or towing.

Like most, we researched and fretted for a long time before plunking down our money. We feel we made the right choice for the way we use our boat. Those who seem to get the most satisfaction out of their boats are the ones who USE 'em a lot.

I have some opinions about boat traveling that I'll put down on our cruising thread some time. Good luck with your buying decisions. And the sooner you buy, the more you'll get to enjoy it! :wink HTH

Best wishes,
Jim B.
 
Pat, you're right, <20kts is a bit on the high side. I rarely go over 18kts, usually only when I want to do a bit of WOT on a smooth day (also rare). In 1ft chop, I'd go 16-18kts, 2ft about 15-16kts, above that, whatever is comfortable maybe 12-14kts. The larger trim tabs really help, mine are 11" deep by 14" across, don't need to deploy such large angles.

Pat, BTW, congrats on your anniversary and such a fine marriage!!!

Jim, you have the data man! What a great opportunity you had to compare the running characteristics of the TC-255 and CD-25. On the squeaks, instead of trying to crank down and limit the movement, have you tried greasing the surfaces a bit, like with a silicon stick grease (used to be sold as "Door-Ease" and other brands. Worked for me, use a toothpick or Q-Tip to sneak it in. As use know, you'll always have various flexing going on.
 
Thanks for the replies. This is very helpful for my buying process.

In terms of the pounding, I slowed the C-25 down to the point where any less rpm and we come off plane, and the pounding experience was only a *little* better than the pounding experience in my $15,000 19' Bayliner. I don't mean this as a knock, just the honest comparison of my experience. At double the weight and $65,000 more in price, I require a DRAMATIC "Oh my God" improvement in the ride. This was not the case and I knew immediately the C-25 was not for me. I played with the tabs....but I'm sure there would be a learning curve.

Thanks again for your experiences and suggestions.

--Matt
 
They still sell Bayliners don't they? Not to be ornery here but the C-dory line will never be "right" for every one. In fact it's starting to look like a love em or hate em boat to me. Lot's of folks raggin on them these days!
They are a great boat for someone newer to boating due to their forgiving nature in so many areas, we love ours. They are great boats for lots of other reasons too. Sometimes a little compromise helps broaden ones perspective.
Mike
 
This was not the case and I knew immediately the C-25 was not for me.
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Good deal, you've narrowed the field. For the use you outlined, I would (still)contend the Parker Pilothouse would be a much better fit.
 
Alasgun, I loved the C-25 but not the level of pounding in 1' chop. I'm looking for a dramtic change in ride experience and the Tomcat offered more of that than the C-25 in the conditions tested.

I don't recall the amount of fuel in either boat, but we had 4 adults in both boats.
 
Something is not right in what you are describing as the "level of pounding" in 1' chop with a CD25 - I cruised ours from Blaine to Ketchikan and know whereof I speak. But if the TC255 is what floats your boat, and the cost is not an issue, I say go for it! There is no question that a TC255 will give you a better ride at high speed than a CD25.

matt_unique":o5kdu5t2 said:
Alasgun, I loved the C-25 but not the level of pounding in 1' chop. I'm looking for a dramtic change in ride experience and the Tomcat offered more of that than the C-25 in the conditions tested.

I don't recall the amount of fuel in either boat, but we had 4 adults in both boats.
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I just came back from fishing at our local Santa Cruz Island about 20nm offshore. Moderately rough coming back near dusk, 15-20kt winds, 5-7ft seas (swell plus chop). Averaged about 10-14kts all the way back, had to adjust throttle a bit because some of the waves allowed us to surf too fast. But on the pounding, only happened twice for the whole ride back (jumped a wave too fast, missed seeing the 'hole' behind it). Trim tabs are the key to a good ride with all the C-Dorys except maybe the Tom Cat to a lesser extent. My CD planes at all speeds from 7-15 kts, just need to adjust the trim tabs.

Good luck with your choice, only you know which model fits your situation and usage the best! I appreciate the sharing of your observations.
 
As far as pounding on the single hulls goes, it seems most ppl have achieved a weight distribution and/or trim tabs to make that problem acceptable at the teen cruising speeds in significant chop. Pounding in 1 foot chop is likely due in great part to an empty boat.

The TomCat can get slap on the flat tunnel entrance going straight on into waves at some speeds. If this is a problem, just tacking off the wind enough to let that "nacelle"? break up the water stops it. I have had no big problems with this.

I have had no strange noises as Matte mentions. Maybe because I had the boat loaded from day one.

I do love the TomCat, but see a wide demand for the benefits of the CD-25 also.

Even tho the TomCat goes fast easily, I like to cruise slowly alot, even down to 6-8 mph, to take in the scenery or cook, draw, etc.. I like the auto pilot at slow speeds, too.

John
 
I've found that not only keeping the bow down is important, but keeping
the boat level when going through chop helps a great deal. Just a couple
of degrees off can make a difference because the bow doesn't cut as
nicely as it can when level. The Level-O-Meter ir what it is called is
invaluable in keeping the boat level. After a while, you develop a feel and
need to look at it less and less, but it is still helpful.

Also, leveling the boat port/stbd from say a 3 deg list to 0 is good for
about 1/2mph increase in speed and some increase in fuel
economy.

Mike
 
We just took delivery of a new (2009) TomCat with twin Suzuki 150s and are a bit concerned at the amount of pounding and slamming we're getting in a two-foot chop. (Typical Chesapeake Bay slop.) This surprises us because we've read that the TomCat runs well in a two-four foot chop. The dealer (Wefings Marine) suggested keeping the engine trims up to keep the nose up and to increase my speed, but at 22-26 knots we're taking a real beating, especially in head seas. If we tack off a bit, things get slightly better, but the slamming and banging still seems excessive. The boat has a moderate amount of cruising gear and supplies with full water and full-to-half full fuel. Any suggestions other than slowing down? At 10-knots the slamming stops, but we're not running efficiently, and the engine cowlings seem dangerously low in the water. Do we need to adjust trim more and get the nose down like on the monohulls?

Otherwise, we absolutely love the boat, having downsized from a custom 43-foot "Downeaster."
 
Sasscom":1stlsojl said:
We just took delivery of a new (2009) TomCat with twin Suzuki 150s and are a bit concerned at the amount of pounding and slamming we're getting in a two-foot chop. (Typical Chesapeake Bay slop.) This surprises us because we've read that the TomCat runs well in a two-four foot chop. The dealer (Wefings Marine) suggested keeping the engine trims up to keep the nose up and to increase my speed, but at 22-26 knots we're taking a real beating, especially in head seas. If we tack off a bit, things get slightly better, but the slamming and banging still seems excessive. The boat has a moderate amount of cruising gear and supplies with full water and full-to-half full fuel. Any suggestions other than slowing down? At 10-knots the slamming stops, but we're not running efficiently, and the engine cowlings seem dangerously low in the water. Do we need to adjust trim more and get the nose down like on the monohulls?

Otherwise, we absolutely love the boat, having downsized from a custom 43-foot "Downeaster."
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Your ride will depend on your load relative to the seas as you know. I guarantee you will also go into some seas expecting a slam and get nothing - float right over. If I am loaded heavy with gear, passengers of fluids (i.e. full fuel adds 900 lbs and full water adds 240 lbs) it will ride lower and give you less of a wind tunnel. If you are at 10 knots - depend on your engines - I'll guess you are around 22-2300 RPM or thereabouts? When the seawater is bubbling up to the seal on your engine cowl that is not an efficient speed as you point out. Faster or slower is better. I don't often run at minimum planing speed but I think for me it's about 16 knots. Try putting the bow up and maintain plane, try a little faster, it really depends.

Sometimes there is no way to prevent slams and you will be beyond the 'soft ride' capabilities of your load and the prevailing conditions. Sometimes it will be in seas smaller than you think it should be but as I mentioned sometimes you will be in seas when you expect to slam and you do not. It really takes a while to figure this out and after 3000 nm I can't always predict the precise ride. My net experience with the vessel is absolutely positive and offers a great balance between soft ride (in many conditions), space, efficiency, etc. I usually cruise at 22 knots (3200 rpm).
 
Thanks Capt. Matt. Sounds like I'll need to play around more with speed, trim and angle of seas. You mention that you cruise at 22 knots at 3200 rpm. Sounds like I might also need to to consider different prop pitch as my Suzukis run 3750 rpm at 22 knots. They'll burn 11 gph total at that speed, which is a little disappointing compared to a performance chart posted on the TomCat web site. Again, we love the boat but just need more time to fine tune things and get used to its sea handling characteristics.
 
I have had a 22 and a 27. I have driven other peoples 19 , 22, 25 and 225 tomcats. They all handle a little different and some times not in the way you would think. I would just go out a play with the boat and adjust the trim up and down, speed it up and see if that helps. My 27 rides better in a 2 to 3 ft chop at 24mph then at 18mph. and a lot better in a following sea with a little more speed. just the opposite from my 22. I use and adjust the engine trim continuously while under way. Its not some thing you set and forget about. Your best trim angle at 22 mph will not be the same for 18 or 25 or 30. When you change one thing you change everything.
 
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