Navigating in Fog

C

CAVU

New member
I just returned from a one month long fishing trip to Ucluelet. I have been doing this trip for about 15 years. This involves boating in big water and often in fog. What I am about to discuss is for sure just my opinion and it is what I elect to do now at this stage in my life. You may have a completely different opinion and I hope to hear many opinions.
I don't have radar on my boat and it is a conscious decision not to have it. I do have a radar reflector and hope it helps. I go to Vancouver Is to have fun and relax. In my opinion running in truly thick fog where visibility would require that you watch and monitor your radar would not be relaxing. With two people aboard and trolling on the offshore banks, when you get a hook-up, who is watching for other vessels? A few seconds of inattention could negate hours of diligent radar watching.
For many years while I was still working and had deadlines and limited fishing time, I would go out in any weather and fish. Now I am a lot older and my personal limits have changed. Now I evaluate the visibility and if I don't think it would allow me to see and avoid another vessel, I turn around and go home. I always fish with another fully qualified partner whom I trust to diligently help with both navigation and watching for another vessel (BTW this includes frequent checks of your six o'clock). You could just as easily be overtaken from the rear by a much faster boat with a skipper who isn't paying attention. I realize that I can start my day with good visibility and have the fog roll in, but I feel that I greatly increase my safety by only boating in adequate visibility. I would really be interested in others thoughts on this subject.
 
CAVU":7vcthlfb said:
In my opinion running in truly thick fog where visibility would require that you watch and monitor your radar would not be relaxing. With two people aboard and trolling on the offshore banks, when you get a hook-up, who is watching for other vessels? A few seconds of inattention could negate hours of diligent radar watching..
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We certainly think opposite, CAVU. In my opinion, running in truly thick fog WITHOUT radar would not be relaxing either! In fact, for me it would be (and has been) a total white knuckle experience.

Modern radars have excellent zone alarms and the display is well within my peripheral vision. It warns me or gives a radar return well before visual sightings, so if a few seconds inattention makes a difference, then I'm either going too darn fast or I'm way too close to ships/boats that are! The only place there's a dedicated radar operator is on something big enough to afford the manpower. Otherwise, IMHO radar as a warning device only requires an occasional glance while devoting most of your time to visual checks. Even as a navigation device, it needn't and shouldn't obsessively distract the skipper.

Don
 
While I have been fishing a few times using radar (less than 100 ft visibility) in Puget Sound, I wouldn't sign up for a full day of it. More often than not, the fog banks come and go down here. Full sun one minute, locked in fog then next.

I have radar on Two Lucky Fish, and wouldn't want to be without it. While I don't really have many deadlines any more (retired), I do like being able to go fishing when I want. Radar provides coverage when needed.

I think you would lose too many days if you were grounded every time there was fog in the area. And I would never want to trust that other boats would avoid me when fog is present.

I also find it useful in good weather to track the larger ships when in transit, especially crossing VTS lanes.

Given the current technology, using radar overlay onto a chartplotter with GPS, it's pretty straightforward to handle interpretation of the radar reflections.

The only negative I have - it ties up the cabin top which makes carrying a dinghy more difficult.

Mac
 
Don and Mac,
Good points and I will admit I have never had radar or a boat or even ridden on a small boat with radar. My concern would be in rough water and thick fog do you have confidence that the radar is painting all targets? In a fishing situation, if you are in back netting your partners fish, will you hear the radar alarm? After re-reading my post, I looks like I was implying I would never have radar, when in fact I am open to the idea, it is just that I could finance two nice fishing trips for the 4-5 grand it would cost for a nice integrated chartplotter/radar, and by using my comfort level with visibility I don't feel pressured to go out when I should stay at the dock. This past trip I lost 4 fishing days to fog out of 30. I save those inevitable days for laundry, boat clean-up, and a nice breakfast out at the Matterson House.
 
Hi Ken, I ended up getting radar on my last boat because of the fog I ran into at Barkley Sound. While I was able to limp back to Port Alberni with the gps, our crew was a wreck because we really had to keep watch plus an ear peeled. The radar really helps when inadvertently you run into fog that you can't avoid. It really helps to see all of the other boats pretty darn well. Even the jet skis show up, but if it weren't for the driver of them, I wouldn't mind running over those mosquitos. Radars aren't really that expensive nowadays, and they are another tool to help keep the journey safe. By the way, when I am fishing I shut it into the reserve power mode, where it just stays warm and ready. If it gets foggy, I turn it on, and get outta there. With radar and gps, you still need to watch the compass, because at low speeds many of the gps wander enough to keep you busy steering when you really don't need to make major corrections.

By the way, how did you guys do this time. We limited on everything but halibut, and just couldn't get into them in the time we were there. Only had about 6 days on the water. Most of the time though we were out around the 8-10 mile range out of Bamfield. A couple of days we should of went to the Gully or halibut hole because we could have went 20 knots the whole way. Just had too darn much fun catch and releasing all of the kings with the occasional Coho. Did get a couple of halibut right in the channel, but managed to loose about a 40 lber when it broke the harpoon cable. I figure its a thumbs up for radar, even if you don't use it a lot.

Ron
 
Digger,
I only got to Bamfield once near the end of the trip. I also hailed you a couple different days with no luck. We had very good fishing although the size was much smaller this year for us. Largest 28#. We limited on the halibut for us and all our guests. We made 4 trips to Big Bank and it was thick with fish each time-both halibut and salmon. Got some very nice hatchery cohos 9-12# out there. There is an interesting post just up on I-fish. Do you follow that site?
 
Ken,

Yup, rough or not, I trust my radar (or any properly operating radar) to paint everything within 1/2 mile of my boat. As for an alarm, if you can hear the Coast Guard on channel 16, you can hear the radar guard zone alarm. It doesn't just beep once and quit. Very insistent, and LOUD.

On the other hand, I don't choose to go out in a thick fog and if I were fishing, I'd think long and hard about staying out if a fog rolled in my way.

Expense? For a safety radar, there's no need for a $5k integrated system. A new Furuno 1623 is under $1200 and I only paid $750 for an Ebay 1622. The JRC 1500 is under $900 new and it's more than adequate.

A safety radar is just that; An electronic lookout. Yah, for navigation purposes nothing beats the convenience of watching the radar paint the harbor entrance over the chart plotter's nice GPS plot, but that's a luxury I'll pass up for now. I don't mind having two displays for the few occasions I'd use it as such.

Don
 
Although I have power boated and sailed over 40 years, I have never had a boat with radar. Not that I haven't had moments when I would have given anything for one, like one trip from seattle to portland when the engine quit near neah bay and I beat all night and ended up having to find the entrance into la push at daybreak and sail in with no engine. I have just put a deposit on a 16' cruiser, which is why I am now on this site. In five years I hopefully will have retired and moved aboard a 22 or 25, in which case I am going to indulge myself with radar. It won't get much use, but when it is appropriate I can see how it would make all the difference. The month of Fraugust in Bamfield or Uclulet could be one of those times. My biggest challenge, like some of you have mentioned, is having it mounted without interferring with the cabin top. Right now I don't see any good reason why it couldn't be mounted on a pole at the stern, as on some sailboats. Anyone have any arguements against that solution? I am really curious if that would work.
 
Addendum, Ken

JRC, which has it's US corporate center in Seattle, has one product, the JRC 1800-CP which, at $1500 has long attracted me. Color GPS plotter/radar combination that uses C-map chips and can mount just like the Furuno radar display I've got. Since I already have a GPS plotter/fishfinder system that uses a competing map chip, it would not only provide radar/mapping overlay, but a complete GPS backup as well.

Unfortunately, it's out of production right now. NOT discontinued as some dealers have reported. One of their subcontractors suddenly tanked and until they get a replacement, production is halted.

Personally, I like JRC. As I've said before, here in the USA they're the Rodney Dangerfield of marine electronics, but if you go overseas, you'll see JRC everywhere.

Don
 
A timely topic after last weekend.

First thanks to Anita Marie for offering to lead me across Rosario (but couldn't because of prop problems....I hope you have found the right prop) and to Bess-C for leading me across through the fog (although by the time we finally went across the fog was just clearing but thanks anyway). On Sunday we waited until about 11am for the last of the fog to clear out.

After spending almost the last 3 years going across Rosario almost weekly, this seems to be the fog season. We have never had radar so we have always avoided going across until we had a few hundred yards of visability around us. Maybe I was just kidding myself with how fast fog rolls in. My brother in law is a captain on one of the Crowley tugs located in Anacortes so we would call him about traffic. His comments were always the same....here's the traffic, why don't you get radar?

Not being retired I still have time constraints hanging over my head so one of my concerns has always been getting back across. It does seem like there is never any fog in the afternoon.

So I guess I'm on the verge of getting radar and a chart plotter. I know this has been covered a lot in previous threads but is there any real concensus on the best combo to get for the 22'?
 
CAVU wrote:
In my opinion running in truly thick fog where visibility would require that you watch and monitor your radar would not be relaxing. With two people aboard and trolling on the offshore banks, when you get a hook-up, who is watching for other vessels? A few seconds of inattention could negate hours of diligent radar watching..
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I don't know Ken, but when I read that paragraph my mind translates it as: "I feel better about going out and playing in traffic as long as I have a blindfold on"

Please tell me that this is a bad analogy.
 
Larry,
My point was that a lot of boats with radar were heading out to fish in zero-zero vis and I didn't think that would be very relaxing. I don't have radar and with poor vis I don't go out at all. I am a little slow in adopting new technology and I am not totally convinced I would feel any different even if I had a fancy radar. I would want enough vis to see and avoid other boats with my own eyes. Several others have assured me that the radar picks up all targets and gives a loud alarm to warn you? Maybe so.
 
I just returned from a one month long fishing trip to Ucluelet. I have been doing this trip for about 15 years. This involves boating in big water and often in fog.
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I don't have radar and with poor vis I don't go out at all.
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I guess the two statements above are what confused me. I agree, if you never take a chance on getting caught in the fog or darkness then you don't need radar. However, getting caught in the fog or darkness is a horrible experience in my opinion. I'll keep my radar.
 
Radar? On a twenty-some foot boat? You have to be kidding. My boat had radar when I got it, and I took it off and sold it on eBay. Well, it had quit working. And I do miss it. Hope to get it replaced before next year.

Another great thing radar does (did) for me in the Columbia was show the shorelines. That is kind of important in low vis with the spits and shoals. The other day when I slowed too much for the GPS and got turned off course, the radar screen would have been the first check if I had one. Just seeing the river running straight up the screen would have taken all the urgency off the situation. It is such a simple, quick and common sense check that the single second it took to look would have been very comforting.

The channel marker buoys all show up big on the radar screen, and that is a help. And when outside, seeing the buoy trail, jetties and the shore line is a good feeling when your eyes can't make them out. I would usually have it set to 1/2 mile range when dark or foggy, but as the helm chores allowed I liked to zoom it out to see the big picture once in a while and make sure North America was still there.

Since my older CD25 has limited view out the back of the cabin, the radar made a good rear view mirror. Even in the best conditions, I liked to have the radar watching for speed boats coming up behind me.

I would really like to have the new Garmin integrated system, with two displays that could work independently of one another if one failed. That would give the redundancy that some insist on, and the overlay that others tout. But it costs too much money for the use it would get. I will probably keep my Garmin GPS and replace the removed radar with another Furuno low end model. I am not giving up my Blue Charts for nothing, so the other integrated systems - as good as they are - are not even under consideration. With an interface cable, the Garmin will provide waypoints to the Furuno, so the important spots can be marked ahead of time.

Navigating in the fog and/or dark is always spooky, regardless of the waters. In a miles-wide river with a relatively narrow navigable area, a course mistake can quickly turn nasty. And at the most treacherous spots, like for me as I passed Clatsop Spit last weekend, it is a good idea to slow down a bit. But if you're already crawling, and you slow down some more, the GPS can get confused. It always seems to take a lot longer for the GPS to catch back up than it does to lose position. The compass did its job well for me, but radar would have made it a lot less tense.
 
Others have covered the main points why to have radar ( I cant think of one good reason not to have it) but heres my two cents. radar is like toilet paper in the woods, yes you can live with out it,but why would you. OR not having radar is like hiking bear country with out a gun, when you need it, you need it NOW!!! and you may not live with out it. You see I may be wrong about needing a gun in the woods or the city. but if Iam wrong I still live ,If your wrong you die.

"to era is human, to forgive is divine, nether is marine corp policy"
 
Ken --
We don't go out in bad visibility or cruise at night -- period. However, it's inevitable that a fog or nightfall will catch you sooner or later and it has us. Then, without a radar, you're in danger. Night's not as serious since other boats usually have lights. But, navigation can be tricky since a collision with a nav. mark or log can be serious (and even radar doesn't usually pick up a log).
So, if you are cruising in country that has frequent fog, having a radar is prudent. You don't need a 5k fancy superimposed job -- if your reason for radar is for the rare need to have extra safety in low visibility, a stand-alone radar (relatively inexpensive) will do the trick. Also, it is a navigation backup to your chartplotter should it have an electronic failure.
Radar on a 20-foot boat? Bloody right. You're on that boat (and maybe your wife and kids) and you need to see through the fog on a 20-footer just as much as when you're on a 40-footer.
We use our radar just about once a week -- not that we need to, but to stay sharp with its use. We've only needed it three times -- but man did we need it those times! One of those three times the radar safety zone warned us of an 'intruder' approaching through thick fog with its insistent beeps; once was at night in a narrow, sinuous channel with six-inch shoals on both sides, studded with nav. marks not on the chart -- for seven miles at night. The third time was in a sudden pea-soup crossing a channel in Alaska studded with cruise ships.
No problem for us mounting the radar antenna on the cabin roof -- our inflatable dinghy fits right over it, and it doesn't affect the radar ability at all -- in fact, it helps secure the dink.
So -- do you need a radar? If you are in an area where fog is common, my answer would be, "Yep." It is a major safety factor. Sooner or later we all get caught in fog. Do you need a fancy superimposed radar on the chartplotter. Nope -- since we rarely need to use the radar, and it draws a lot of power, we wouldn't want the radar and chartplotter on at the same time most of the time anyway, let alone superimposed. Two separate systems give us reliability -- in case of failure we can navigate safely with either one, using our paper charts with the radar.
 
E & B -

Now you know I was only joshing with the 20-something foot boat comment, don't you?

But Dusty was not joshing when he taught us that if you have radar, you are required to use it while underway. Here's a direct quote from the Captain:

Do you need radar? It's an expensive gadget, and if you install it, the International Rules of the Road (hereinafter "rules") require that you use it. (Rule 7). Many of our Brat skippers don't have radar and don't want it, and there are thousands of other boaters enjoying recreational boating without it. However, if you often boat in poor visibility, radar is a VERY useful safety aid - with one very important caveat - the term "radar-assisted collision" is a common term in my former profession, and the improper interpretation and use of radar has caused some "horrendous destruction and loss of life".
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(Note: You can find the referenced article and a lot more info in the Seamanship Forum in the Tech Library here.)
 
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