Need anchor chain recommendation

D

Doryman

New member
I am assembling the bits and pieces for my new #8 EZ Anchor Puller windlass. I've decided on using 200' of 1/2" Brait, 30-50' of 1/4" chain and the 25# Manson Supreme anchor. Fishieries Supply will splice the Brait to the chain, but I can't decide which chain to get. Is this Sea Dog chain a good choice? How long should it be?

BTW even though the windlass is rated for 160' of 1/2" line, Brait takes up less room. HERE is a discussion about it.

Thanks,
Warren
 
Doryman":3lvnwcn1 said:
I am assembling the bits and pieces for my new #8 EZ Anchor Puller windlass. I've decided on using 200' of 1/2" Brait, 30-50' of 1/4" chain and the 25# Manson Supreme anchor. Fishieries Supply will splice the Brait to the chain, but I can't decide which chain to get. Is this Sea Dog chain a good choice? How long should it be?

BTW even though the windlass is rated for 160' of 1/2" line, Brait takes up less room. HERE is a discussion about it.

Thanks,
Warren
Click to expand...

Warren-

That windlass has always looked to me to be a Rolls Royce quality solution to the windlass and storage issue at the same time. Unlike a windlass with a gypsy and pockets, I don't think it cares what exact type of chain you use with it, since it simply winds up on a storage drum.

Is the 1/2" braid 8-plait or 12-plait? These braided/multi-plaited lines are much more resistant to hockling and twisting and forming loops than traditional twisted 3-strand nylon. However, they have only approximately 6-10 % of stretch at 15% of breaking strength as opposed to 16% stretch for 3-strand for the same conditions. I've never used braided 8 or 12 plait, and like the idea of no tangles, etc., but I do like the elasticity of the 3-strand to prevent shock to the hull in rough conditions, although a snubber can make up for some of the difference, up to a limit. 200 feet of rope plus 30-50 feet of chain sounds good to me, but I'm not in the PNW or Alaska, either!

The anchor link shows only short lengths of chain (4 feet in the 1/4" version with triangular end links). I've always used Acco brand GS 40 Galvanized High Test chain in either 1/4' or 5/16", which is stronger and better protected from rusting than Proof Coil or BBB grade chain. Whether you use 30 or 50 feet may depend more on where your anchoring and the needs of the Manson Supreme anchor. I'll leave the discussion of the Manson Supreme to Dr. Bob who ran his own tests on most of the common anchor types.

Good Luck!

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
A lot of, but not all, Sea Dog stuff is imported from China. It wouldn't hurt to ask the question. I've always used ACCO chain for my rode. With 3 strand nylon for the reasons Joe mentioned above. And it's cheaper, which also helps.

Boris
 
McDipple":12gwnkh6 said:
To the extent that "energy absorption" can be considered as a proxy for "elasticity" and also that manufacturers' numbers are believable then this might allay concerns on that point.

http://www.yalecordage.com/html/pdf/ple ... low2/5.pdf
Click to expand...

For a full "Sales Job" from Yale Cordage on Brait, read the

"A White Paper Produced by Yale Cordage on Anchoring Technology", September 2005

I would also wonder if it is compatible with all windlasses, and how difficult it is to splice to itself and chain.

(Just playing Devil's Advocate in view of all the claims made by Yale.)

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
Joe, thanks for that white paper -- in it was this recommendation, answering one of my earlier questions:

Yale recommends selecting a high-test chain of between one and
two times the length of the boat for most applications.
Click to expand...

On the next page is a table suggesting 30' of chain.

HERE is the Acco chain that Boris suggested. Absent any other suggestions, I am going to go with 30' of 1/4" Acco. I can't find an Acco shackle so will probably have to go with one from SeaDog,

Warren
 
Warren-

The ACCO BBB chain is probably very adequate, but the GS 40 High Test I've used is nearly twice as strong (high carbon steel and heavier hot dipped galvanizing).

I've used it because it's links fit the gypsy chain pockets on my windlasses, and not the BBB or Proof Coil chain (their link dimensions are dissimilar to GS 40.)

You might look at the West Marine Catalogue under the Anchoring section and look at the chain specifications. They even offer a grade 70 chain under their own name now, probably made by ACCO. (Chain grades go up to 100, used for overhead lifting on cranes.)


Here are some interesting comparisons, all for 1/4' chain:


Type, Safe Working Load, Breaking Strength


Proof Coil 1250 lbs. 5000 lbs.

BBB 1325 lbs 5500 lbs

Grade 40 2600 lbs. 7750 lbs.

Grade 70 3150 lbs. 9450 lbs.

Stainless 1570 lbs. 6300 lbs


Of course, if the breaking strength of your 1/2" 8-plait rope is 6300 lbs, this gives you an idea which chains would be the better matches. (But forget stainless, it's $14/foot!)

As far as the shackle, I'd prefer a stainless anchor shackle of even a larger diameter (look at the breaking strengths) or better yet, a Winchard captive pin Bow shackle which is three times as strong as the average stainless anchor shackle of equal size. (Forged 17.4 PH stainless instead of 316.)

Remember, the weakest link in the chain (rode)........determines the ultimate breaking strength of the whole system.....

Now some of this may be overkill, so use your judgment, and also consider the cost.

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
Warren,
Considering that much of your anchoring will be in the PNW where there are lots of rocks on the bottom, you really want at least 30 feet of chain for abrasion resistance on the bottom. I agree with the Acco 1/4"--there is the issue of weight on the boat, as well as size., and how much the windlass can store. What is the real capacity of the reel if you use Brait? The advantage of Brait seems to be that it "Lays" better in a confined space. Does it really take less space when on a reel?

My experience with the Manson Supreme, is that it will do fine with less than 7 to one scope. But with 7 to one scope--consider that you are limited to anchoring in about 30 feet of water (assuming 30 feet of chain, and that the bow is 4 feet off the water). 5 to one scope: 40 feet and 3 to one scope in 70 feet.

I always prefer more anchor rode than less. When full time cruising, I used 200 feet of chain backed by 300 feet of 3 strand (and an extra 400 feet in a coil ready to deploy for the back up anchor or if I wanted to use it on the primary anchor in over 100 feet of anchoring depth.

I like splicing rope to chain if you have to go through a rope to chain gypsy, but in an open reel windlass, there is no reason for the rope to chain splice. Just get eye splices on both ends of the rode. That way you can end for end the Brait line yearly, and equalize the wear near the chain. If you splice it, you have to re-splice each year. The 1/4" high test chain is plenty strong. I used 5/16 HT on my Cal 46 and anchored in hurricane force winds.

The shackle is another story. Joe gives you some excellent suggestions. Most of the shackles you buy are Chinese castings. I have also seen frightening defects in the Stainless shackles also. So double check the shackle to be sure that there is no casting defect. You want the largest shackle you can fit thru the chain (and this may be a reason to go with 5/16" chain). Incidently many of the reel windlasses use 5 feet of very heavy chain near the anchor--with ligher chain up the line.

And we thought that anchoring systems were "easy".....I am very excited about your choice--and feel that it will work very well for you--just be sure that the line does not bunch in one place on the reel, up as you bring it up. I still would tie the anchor line off on a cleat and use a snubber.
 
Any reason the discussion does not appear to include answers to the question, "If the system fails, where in the system would you prefer the failure to occur?"
Not trying to be a smart ass; I'm still considering the whole business of anchoring as a case of simultaneous solutions to multiple equations.

Paul Priest
Sequim
 
Well, looking at the Defender catalogue, they give you your choice as to shackles:
1. Galvanized (imported) 1/4" @ 1.89
2. US Drop forged, Fed Spec Type IV 1/4" @ 6.49
3. Stainless 1/4" @ 3.99

The above relates to the statement "If the system fails, where in the system would you prefer the failure to occur?" Since the anchor system is linear, it doesn't matter where the failure occurs, you've had a failure and you're not anchored. So get something you can trust, and it looks like it'll cost you $14 more for some assurance that the shackles will not be the failure point.

Remember, anchoring equipment is safety equipment, not just a nice to have. And also remember, tie the anchor rode off on a cleat, not hanging from the windlass.

Boris
 
journey on":1go88koi said:
Well, looking at the Defender catalogue, they give you your choice as to shackles:
1. Galvanized (imported) 1/4" @ 1.89
2. US Drop forged, Fed Spec Type IV 1/4" @ 6.49
3. Stainless 1/4" @ 3.99

<some discussion clipped>

Boris
Click to expand...

The 1/4" Winchard captive pin bow shackle has a breaking strength of 4630 lbs, and the 5/16" a breaking strength of 8,160 lbs. The first costs $21.99 and the second $32.99 @ WM!

But why put a ~1000-3000 lb breaking strength shackle on a 1/4" HT Gr 40 chain with a breaking strength of 7750 lbs. and a rope with a breaking strength of 6300 lbs?

Don't let your shackle be your weakest link, buy the best and then be sure to tighten it down with at least pliers and seize it with stainless steel, Monel, or Nichrome wire.

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
OK, lets keep something in mind: we're talking about anchoring a 25' boat (max.) And we're mixing up yield load, breaking (ultimate) load and working load.

Remember the working load is yield load divided by the saftey factor. Breaking load is higher than yield and requires a greater safety factor.

First, let's look at WM anchoring tests, in their catalog. For 35# anchors, they got a lot of sets between 2000# to 5000#. My C-25 has a 22# Bruce, and I don't feel that it's going to hold 2000#, and more importantly, the foredeck cleat isn't going to hold it, in a blow. So an anchor rode that is rated for 2000# gives a good margin on safety on a C-25 or a C255, and clearly a C-22 doesn't need as much.

Ok, 1/4 G-4 chain, which works on the V-700 windlass, has a working load of 2600# ( Defender catalog.) The WM catalog specifies breaking strength for 1/2" anchor line as 7500#. I've seen a saftey factor for rope in service of 10, but I'll settle for 5. This gives a working load for 1/2 nylon line of 1500#. A Wichard SS bow shackle has a working load , per Defender, of 1655 (1/4") or 2755 (5/16".) Drop forged shackle working loads are 1/2 ton (1/4" and 3/4 ton (5/16".)

So, for a 1/4" G-4 chain & 1/2" nylon line rodes that go with the Lewmar windlasses we have, it appears that the weak links are (1) anchor holding power, (2) boat strength, , (3) anchor line. The chain and shackles provide additional safety factors

I also understand that you get to use any combination of anchor rode you want to. And I understand you get to use any safety factor you are comfortable with

Boris
 
Wow, this windless discussion is getting way too confusing. My anchor puller works with any size line/chain combination, and even washes the mud off. Best of all, my anchor puller also pops shrimp heads, handles the lines, cooks, washes the windows, and helps keep that cold V-birth tolerable on cold nights.
What else could a skipper ask for?
 
To give a little different prospective on Boris's comments--I have seen nylon rode exceed the safe working load in anchoring systems a number of time. The advantage of nylon is its ability to absorb shock--up to a point. I have seen 1/2" nylon get to the point where it was so hot it fused the inner parts of the 3 strands, but did not fail. I have also seen 1/2" nylon in use as a snubber fail. (much larger boat).

The point about the dock cleat is well taken. It depends on how well the cleat is backed---and most of our boats are not adequately backed. (an aluminum plate is preferable to fender washers)--and I have seen inadequately backed cleats pull out of the deck--I also saw a boat where a one inch line held, yet the cleat bent in half (unusual circumstance in the Panama Canal, where a 55 foot Hatteras was hanging from a single stern cleat--there the cleat was still intact but bent in a "U" and not pulled thru the deck, and the line was not damaged visiably.

Although the anchor tests show relitatively low holding power--and they are correct,--there is that time when the anchor hangs under a rock and the forces can be far more (again I agree that over 2000 lbs on a 22 C Dory would be very , very unusual.

However, I have seen a number of shackles fail. Especially those from China--as many are--which are cast, instead of forged. This holds for both SS as well as mild steel. A plea to look at, and evaluate the shackles to be sure that they are not the weak point. A good drop forged shackle or high quality SS shackle is not going to fail, but be sure that you do have a quality item.
 
Jay, Judy's anchor puller (BW-before windlass,) did those things and held a steady job. AW, Judy gets to do a lot of the work.

Consider yourself honored and your windlass selection excellent. And don't buy a bigger boat.

Boris
 
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