Need electrical advise...please!

T

Tom on Icarus

New member
I may have caused myself a lot of electrical problems. I don't know and I need help!
My anchor light was not working so I tried testing the circuit. I have a meter, which admittedly, I don't know how to use. I was trying to see if the meter would read 12 volts and when I (very briefly) touched the black wand to the negative bus bar at the dash switch panel and the red one to the positive bar there was sparks. Oops!
A week later we were on our 5th day out in the boat. All had been normal up till then. We were at anchor, and had not run the engine for 24 hours, at the time, and all had been as normal when I noticed the battery voltage was at 8.5 volts and then the FM radio quit. I quickly shut down the GPS/sounder unit and VHF (only things running) and tried to start the motor. Not enough juice. Very rare because we can go for several days and the boat still starts on the house battery every time. I switched to BOTH batteries, started the engine and the kicker and ran them for 2 hours. Charging voltage was 14.2-14.4 volts. Shut motors down, switched back over to the house battery and all was good again. The next day it started fine on the house battery alone. We were 2 hours into a cruise in heavy seas when it seemed that the starboard wiper switch was acting up. It thought hesitated to come on a couple of times. Other times it seemed fine. Later I used the macerator pump, then added 2 gallons of fresh water to the tank, then when I switched the macerator on again, nothing happened and the circuit breaker for the macerator tripped. I reset and tried several times. Still tripped. After that I noticed the charging voltage got as high as 14.8 volts before coming back down to the 14.2.
I will replace the macerator as I have to remove it to see if it is jammed anyway but I am wondering if everything else is coincidence, and all will be fine with a new pump, or something more is going on in the switch panel.
I feel like such an idiot and have appreciated all your help in the past and look forward to some more help now. You guys and gals are the best!
Cheers,
Tom
 
As described, your wand touching should have been fine. If your meter was set to read volts.
Check your start battery to see if it is still good, and not shorted out.
Charging a really depleted battery with your engine alternater, can be hard on the engine alternater.
Fully charge the start battery, let rest overnight, and read the voltage to see how much it has dropped. 12.4 is about half full, your battery should be able to hold about 12.8 v.
 
I dont think your house battery was full charged bc it can take several hours to a day to fully charge a battery . Check the battery voltage will help and referenced in the Fluke primer. I bought Battery Minder smart charger ( Thanks for pm from Dr Austin) to charge boat and auto batteries and it also de sulphates them but battery age and being under charged several times will definitely decrease its usable life span. Now it is good time to check , clean all connections of the batteries and also tighten the engine side battery cables. I use dielectric grease on the connections after cleaning with spray cleaner and or fine sandpaper and replaced battery wing nuts with hex nuts and washers or nylonlocks nuts. At the fuse panel, pull one fuse and clean with a safe electronic cleaner like CRC brand the fuse and its connectors on the panel. While out, use your volt meter and turn it on then move it to the continuity setting. When you touch the volt meters cables together , it will beep then you can check the fuse. If it does not beep replace fuse. Move to the next fuse. Also check any grounds at the panel. If an item like radio has an inline fuse, pull, clean, test and reinstall or replace. Look for loose connections or bad crimps. I bought a LED headlight from ebay. I know it looks goofy when I wear it but the light at work site is very bright and adjustable. Best #12 I spent in the long time and should have bought 3 light version for $20 but didnt know the build quality, Mine is well made and comfortable to wear and battery last for hours

Fluke has a DVM primer at
http://assets.fluke.com/appnotes/automo ... atbook.pdf

To load test a battery, I have a load tester or you can remove and take to auto parts store but they to be fully charged before testing.

You test light bulbs using the continuity setting, too. When checking the light, check voltage at the panel and at the bulb socket. Does any of this make sense?

You may have other issues but this is the easy stuff I can explain quickly
 
Thanks for the replies. Most of it is beyond my scope of comprehension but I want to learn so please keep the knowledge coming.
The batteries are on their 5th year now and I remove them annually and fill with distilled water if needed. They were only a bit low on water once years ago.
Could the freezing up of the macerator pump and popping of it's circuit breaker be caused by a failing or low battery or is that definitely a blockage in the pump and that causes the circuit to overload?
Thanks again,
Tom
 
You can take the batteries and have them load tested. Most auto shop will do free and use a sophisticated tester that prints the results. To me, your batteries need replacing. Five years of use is great but they dont last forever. If replacing, consider installing larger capacity units if they fit

Exam the pump wires and body. Do you see any areas on heat buildup like discoloration or blistering? After the pump is removed, use the DVM continuity setting and check it, and see if the impeller can be rotated by hand. It might a bad wiring connection and /or the pump has failed.

Can you post pics?
 
Hey Tom On Icarcus,

You might want to purchase The 12 Volt Bible For Boats by Miner Brotherton. I believe there is an updated but even an old one will give you the basics.

Be safe. Spuncopper
 
Tom,
If your macerator is tripping the breaker it is drawing too much power. Something is either seized up or the motor is shot. Sometimes the macerator will get bound up and you can take the dime sized rubber plug out of the back of the macerator to access the main shaft. Use a screwdriver to turn the slotted screw which will turn the shaft and may free up the macerator. If it doesn't you will have to pull the macerator. You can get rebuild kits for them if you want. I usually don't bother and just replace it.

Cheers
Ron
 
Okay, I did a visual and a wiggle test on all of the wiring that I could get at easily. So far so good. I also put a meter on both batteries as they have sat for over 24 hours and they read 12.96 and 12.8 volts. That must be good. Next step is to load test them just to know and replace them anyway. Starboard wiper was switch still acting up but after wiggling wires at the panel I think it is working as it should. Probably a weak connection under there that I made better. Macerator still won't turn.

BrentB: Macerator looks as new...no signs of hot spots or anything. Battery load test coming soon.

spuncopper: I will definitely look in the book and try to learn something.

Ron: Good to know what that plug at the end of the motor is for. I pulled it off yesterday and wondered what it was. I will try to turn and free up the motor tomorrow. I agree that if it is seized I'll just buy a new one but I just may be able to free a clog by turning the shaft. I already tried back flushing buy it would not go through.
Would love to meet up with you and Anne again at the CBGT you are hosting but we have company (family) visiting from Ontario then so we can't make it.

Thanks again everyone.
Cheers, Tom
 
Maybe next time Tom. I hope to retire (again) next May and hopefully have a good summer of cruising and catching up with folks. If you get over this way give us a PM.
Cheers
Ron
 
Generally great advice above. Just because a battery which has just been charged reads 12.6 to 12.8 volts, does not mean it is good. That is why you need to load test it.

5 years--figure the batteries are shot. You let the voltage drop to 8.5 at least once--that alone will damage a battery.

Just because you wriggle a wire, and it works "OK" again, has not solved the problem. Trace out the wires (great time to label every wire), and find where the loose connection is. Either tighten a screw, or tighten a connection lug. May even require a new connector--and is why you need a good pair of ratchet crimpers and a selection of adhesive shrink wrapped connectors--just bought a selection of these on the internet for my son's new boat, form Amazon.

Sorry to disagree with San Juander--but generally a flooded lead acid battery fully charged at rest for 24 hours will read from 12.6 to 12.7 volts. (AGM may read slightly higher), but the assumption is that flooded lead acid batteries are involved, especially when there is mention of adding water! Anything higher is a surface charge. Half discharge is generally accepted to be 12.2 volts, not 12.4 volts.

Pay attention to what Brent has suggested; all good advice.

Most likely your macerator is at the least partially stuck--if not jammed--do the screw driver to turn the shaft. These type of macerators have a high failure rate. I prefer the diaphragm type--they are more expensive--at least to begin with. Down the line, they will outlast the rotary macerator by several times.

You may have a parasitic draw, which pulls down the batteries. You should always top off the batteries with a smart charger regularly. The poorly regulated output of the charging circuit of the outboard will not get that last 15 to 20% of the charge!

Check the battery water every month or so--not at the end of the season. Put the battery on the battery minder during the winter, when not using it at least.

There is also "battery university" http://batteryuniversity.com. Read this a few times. Then use the volt meter to check the circuits. A spark when touching the probes to the bus bars is not normal--The amount of current drawn by a volt meter is very low.

This is also a time to consider better battery monitoring equipment, and invest in a Victron 702 battery monitor--and combining this with your knowledge, you will be able to care for the batteries.
 
Tom on Icarus:

The spark when voltage testing suggests you may have had the black lead inserted into the special ground port on the voltmeter which is reserved for the 10 Amp circuit. If that were used instead of the normal ground port for all the other measuring scales, a test of voltage would fry the 10 Amp circuit. If this is rhe case, you should get no reading when using that port for measuring amperage. Check out the manual for details on using thst port. If you are lucky, it is fused, and you can restore it by replacing that fuse.

Thataway's advice seems the most comprehensive. I agree you need to replace at least one battery.
 
Know two batteries are the same, regarding voltage and specific gravity readings.
That is why I used the word " about" twice.
The metering device should not produce a spark. A spark would indicate a "load", by the device.
Allowing a battery to go to a low voltage reading, takes some of it's high reading away each time it is depeleted.
A bad battery, can cause electrical confusion.
alan
 
Another question for the experts:
I have the Guest 2621A 3 banks 5,5,10 Amps onboard battery charger. Same age as the boat. I have one battery hooked up to the 10A circuit and the other battery hooked up to both of the 5A circuits giving each battery a 10A charge. For how long and how often should the batteries be charged with this system? I don't normally use marina power during the summer as I feel that the boat is used enough to keep the batteries up. Probably an incorrect assumption on my part.
New batteries will be installed next week. Do folks like those sealed batteries that never need water? "Opti-something?? "I may look at a pair of them if you folks like them.

Dr. Bob: Your knowledge and expertise is always appreciated. I have bookmarked the Battery University page and have been wading through the information. I will also look into a monitoring system.

AstoriaDave: My best bet is that I had the red wand in the 10A DC port. The black one is always in the black port. I most likely had the selector on the wrong setting too.

Thanks again to everyone!
Cheers,
Tom
 
Tom,
Im very good with electrical and anything mechanical.But i still go to youtube and look up the simplest things just to see if ive overlooked another way of doing something.
Your obviously computer saavy enough to come here and type, and your not scared to throw a meter on a terminal so half the battle is over.
You tube is your BEST friend when it comes to this kind of stuff.
Just type in the simplest term you are trying and there will be 100 different videos on how to do it.
good luck!
 
Update: I had the best day on a boat that anyone could have. NOT!! I removed the seized macerator pump. Ugh!!

The batteries I am asking about are "Optima" AGM batteries. YouTube videos seems to like them. Any brats use them and like or dislike them?

greeneyegi: Thanks for reminding me to resource youtube. I never think to look there. It really has some good stuff.

Cheers,
Tom
 
I don't normally use marina power during the summer as I feel that the boat is used enough to keep the batteries up. Probably an incorrect assumption on my part.
Click to expand...

My feeling is that even using the boat regularly, you need to top off the batteries between use,

I don't believe that that Guest gives 10 amps by combining the two 5 amp circuits. There is a better charger for this purpose the 2622A (10/10 Amps). But again, there are probably better chargers than the Guest--such as Mastervolt, Victron or Blue Seas. Keep with the Guest as long as it works. These are "Smart" chargers, and after the Bulk and absorption phases, they go to a "Float" stage, which continues to maintain the battery without overcharging.

I am not a fan of the Optima batteries--they are very expensive, and have relatively low amp hours For most use, a good flooded lead acid battery does fine. We just put in two group 27 "interstate" batteries from Costco in my son's 25. It costs about half of the Optima, and has twice the amp hour capacity. If you want to go "high end" then the Odyssey are good, but again, I think that they are a bit overhyped. I have had very good service with the Sam's club AGM group 31's--but I have a very specific reason to use AGM's I want to charge them rapidly, off the generator, since they run both a freezer and refrigerator.

It sounds as if you are making some progress. The macerator pumps need to "exercised" and lubricated. Again,in the long run you may be better off with the diaphragm pump.
 
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