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Nice fishing boat...well it was.
- Thread starter localboy
- Start date
If you watch as he comes in, he is traveling faster than the wave sets. He should have slowed down, as he came to the area where the waves were cresting. When running a breaking inlet you have to have an awareness of the wave train speed, match the speed, and stay on the back face of a wave. Could a "rogue wave" defeat this? Yes, but not the circumstance here--plus part of running an inlet is also glancing aft as well as concentrating on where you are--and what is ahead. Situational awareness.Chester":2egu29gn said:Did it seem the wave he was riding overtook the wave ahead?
starcrafttom
Active member
Glad you posted this. I saw it today but lost it in face book hell some where. does any one know where it was at?
PaulNBriannaLynn
New member
Jupiter Inlet, Florida. Amazing how fast that happened. Another reason I appreciate pilothouse design on the c-dory. We've taken more greenwater than that over the bow of our old 22, but the outcome was a lot less dramatic. Really glad the guy survived, the boat can be replaced. Hopefully he learned a lesson.
There were some on other forums who thought that the boat was heavy in the bow--or might have taken on water. It could be that the skipper still had trim tabs down.
Jupiter Inlet had a bad reputation---we have gone out it on calm days. There are better choices a few miles North and South. It has the most deaths of any of the Florida inlets. In 2010 a very experienced skipper was killed when his 51 footer broached. The sand bars at the entrance are constantly shifting and it can shoal and change with each storm.
Jupiter Inlet had a bad reputation---we have gone out it on calm days. There are better choices a few miles North and South. It has the most deaths of any of the Florida inlets. In 2010 a very experienced skipper was killed when his 51 footer broached. The sand bars at the entrance are constantly shifting and it can shoal and change with each storm.
smckean (Tosca)
New member
I'm curious......maybe some of you more experienced skippers can tell me.....
It probably goes back to my sailing days, but I enjoy sometimes "surfing a wave" in my C-Dory. I've never done it on a truly big wave, and even if I somehow stuck the bow into the wave ahead like this guy did, I understand that my boat would pop right back up out of the green water (assuming I haven't left lots of doors and windows open).
However, if I did surf the front face of a larger wave in my boat, and assuming I did it carefully so that I just had enough speed to initiate the slide down (that is, I carefully don't go faster than the wave train before the slide down), and with trim tabs up, is it possible that I could pick up enough speed sliding down the face to bury the bow into the next wave?
I can see that I could bury the bow if the waves were close enough together, but if all seemed pretty reasonable (say, 2 boat lengths btwn crests), could it happen?
It probably goes back to my sailing days, but I enjoy sometimes "surfing a wave" in my C-Dory. I've never done it on a truly big wave, and even if I somehow stuck the bow into the wave ahead like this guy did, I understand that my boat would pop right back up out of the green water (assuming I haven't left lots of doors and windows open).
However, if I did surf the front face of a larger wave in my boat, and assuming I did it carefully so that I just had enough speed to initiate the slide down (that is, I carefully don't go faster than the wave train before the slide down), and with trim tabs up, is it possible that I could pick up enough speed sliding down the face to bury the bow into the next wave?
I can see that I could bury the bow if the waves were close enough together, but if all seemed pretty reasonable (say, 2 boat lengths btwn crests), could it happen?
PaulNBriannaLynn
New member
Absolutely! Depending on the stage of the wave behind you, its very possible you could get "worked" or pitch poled by a breaking wave. It would all depend on the steepness of the wave and the power behind it. Anyone in that kind of a situation in a c-dory just made a huge mistake. I think more likely the boat might skate a little sideways and then be rolled in the surf as opposed to pitch poling.
I luckily don't have the experience, but have seen it happen to boats and have been nearly drowned a few times surfing really large waves in parts of Indonesia.
I luckily don't have the experience, but have seen it happen to boats and have been nearly drowned a few times surfing really large waves in parts of Indonesia.
starcrafttom
Active member
Paul is right but a more likely out come to being pitched poled ( end over end) is you will be rolled over as a result of bow steer. Cdorys are flat bottomed boats that do not track as well as a deep v boat. If you slide down a wave front into another wave at even a small angle the bow will act as a rudder and steer you to the left or right. Most often in the direction of least resistance. With the ass end having no keel it will slide down the wave in the other direction as the bow and turn you side ways to the wave behind you. It will make the hair stand up on the back of your neck. If you do not steer into the wave and straighten up you can get rolled. Cutting the power to idle also helps. Sail boats have a large deep keel that lets the boat track when surfing down waves that just does not apply to dorys.
AstoriaDave
New member
Some folks refer to this as a "broach." Whatever the label, the end result is the same, also the corrective actions to prevent the broach or recover from it. Never been broached in a power boat or a sailing vessel of size. But have been, several times, sea kayaking in surf, but never in swells offshore.
Pitchpoling which is end over end, requires a wave face or height about the length of the boat's water line--or 20' in a C Dory--that is a big surf wave. I agree that rolling is more likely.
Yes, I agree that if you got caught in a C Dory doing this, you made a big error. But don't think because you have a foredeck and enclosed cabin, that the boat could not broach, bury bow and roll, because it is possible. Most likely the boat will slide. The motor lower unit is what is in the water mostly to give directional stability--and this requires power to be applied.
I have been in breaking seas 40 to 45 feet in height in the 62 footer we took to Europe and back--The seas were not steep enough to pitch pole, but it was a worry. Although I had only a very small amount of sail area up, all of the way forward, to keep the bow pointed down wind/seas, some seas would roll the boat to the point of putting the mast in the water several times. I also kept the engine going at enough speed that I always had steerage way--by water flowing across the rudder. This was in what is described as a "full keel" boat--full displacement--the faster it went the deeper the hole it dug--would never plane no matter now much power you applied. That boat was basically sealed up--mostly flush deck, with a pilot house aft--water often broke across the deck. Water mostly came in thru the anchor locker--and there was a watertight bulkhead forward, and bilge pump there. But also around the companionway, which was not water tight. Not the danger that you have where there is a bottom, since this was half way between Bermuda and the Azores, in very deep water.
Yes, I agree that if you got caught in a C Dory doing this, you made a big error. But don't think because you have a foredeck and enclosed cabin, that the boat could not broach, bury bow and roll, because it is possible. Most likely the boat will slide. The motor lower unit is what is in the water mostly to give directional stability--and this requires power to be applied.
I have been in breaking seas 40 to 45 feet in height in the 62 footer we took to Europe and back--The seas were not steep enough to pitch pole, but it was a worry. Although I had only a very small amount of sail area up, all of the way forward, to keep the bow pointed down wind/seas, some seas would roll the boat to the point of putting the mast in the water several times. I also kept the engine going at enough speed that I always had steerage way--by water flowing across the rudder. This was in what is described as a "full keel" boat--full displacement--the faster it went the deeper the hole it dug--would never plane no matter now much power you applied. That boat was basically sealed up--mostly flush deck, with a pilot house aft--water often broke across the deck. Water mostly came in thru the anchor locker--and there was a watertight bulkhead forward, and bilge pump there. But also around the companionway, which was not water tight. Not the danger that you have where there is a bottom, since this was half way between Bermuda and the Azores, in very deep water.
That guy was lucky. He made it out. If he had been in PNW water the outcome could have been very different.
I have been caught in big (8 foot +/- ) following seas one time. It was in Georgia Strait, and we were heading to Princess Louisa after launching in West Vancouver. Seemed like hours, but really about 2, and they were off the aft port quarter. We did a lot of surfing, having to angle to port to avoid the lee shore. There were a few occasions of "bow steering" and I can assure you, that is NOT comfortable. My best result were to power up and turn into the wave ahead, so away from the direction the boat is trying to self steer. These were big waves, and 3-4 boat lengths between, with about half of them breaking to whitecaps. Not my most pleasant "boat ride" but I was never afraid the boat was in danger of a broach.
In big waves, I prefer to be going into themm not running with, or from them. In those situations I have buried the bow several times. I have had green water up to the dog house curve and up and over the forward hatch a couple of times, and the C-Dory does pop up fast. I have buried the anchor many times, with no untoward after effects. It has to do with the short coupled, steep waves, usually crossing a tide rip. On one occasion, running down Knight Inlet along side a CD25 for a couple hours, in 3 to 5 foot on coming waves, I think I probably stffed the nose 2 or 3 times as often as the 25 did.
Mind you, these are not times and places I decided to just go out and see how far into a wave I can stick my bow, but where, conditions changed. They are all doable, and illustrate that the boat can handle much tougher water than the crew in most cases. I think there are huge advantages to our "flat bottom" boats with a closeable cabin. If that guy in the video had been on a C-Dory, he could have powered right through those waves, providing he had the hatches and windows closed.
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
I have been caught in big (8 foot +/- ) following seas one time. It was in Georgia Strait, and we were heading to Princess Louisa after launching in West Vancouver. Seemed like hours, but really about 2, and they were off the aft port quarter. We did a lot of surfing, having to angle to port to avoid the lee shore. There were a few occasions of "bow steering" and I can assure you, that is NOT comfortable. My best result were to power up and turn into the wave ahead, so away from the direction the boat is trying to self steer. These were big waves, and 3-4 boat lengths between, with about half of them breaking to whitecaps. Not my most pleasant "boat ride" but I was never afraid the boat was in danger of a broach.
In big waves, I prefer to be going into themm not running with, or from them. In those situations I have buried the bow several times. I have had green water up to the dog house curve and up and over the forward hatch a couple of times, and the C-Dory does pop up fast. I have buried the anchor many times, with no untoward after effects. It has to do with the short coupled, steep waves, usually crossing a tide rip. On one occasion, running down Knight Inlet along side a CD25 for a couple hours, in 3 to 5 foot on coming waves, I think I probably stffed the nose 2 or 3 times as often as the 25 did.
Mind you, these are not times and places I decided to just go out and see how far into a wave I can stick my bow, but where, conditions changed. They are all doable, and illustrate that the boat can handle much tougher water than the crew in most cases. I think there are huge advantages to our "flat bottom" boats with a closeable cabin. If that guy in the video had been on a C-Dory, he could have powered right through those waves, providing he had the hatches and windows closed.
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
smckean (Tosca)
New member
Thanks all for the tips......
I see now I mislead most of you. When I said "surfing a wave", I did not mean surfing like someone on a beach with a surfboard might do (i.e., on a breaking wave); rather I meant surfing down a swell front which might, at most, have a white cap on it. Back in my sailing days, in San Francisco doing ocean racing, we called that slide down a swell front "surfing" (we would sometimes reach 16+ knots in a 40' sloop while coming in under the Golden Gate while surfing). I would never surf a breaking wave.
Anyway, some (e.g., Harvey) seem to have understood my meaning, and have given me some interesting tips. Given that perspective, I guess I will continue to surf swells in my CD25 for the fun of it, working my way up in terms of height until I find the inevitable bow steer to be too scary, or at least uncomfortable, at which point, I will know not to attempt swells bigger than that.
I see now I mislead most of you. When I said "surfing a wave", I did not mean surfing like someone on a beach with a surfboard might do (i.e., on a breaking wave); rather I meant surfing down a swell front which might, at most, have a white cap on it. Back in my sailing days, in San Francisco doing ocean racing, we called that slide down a swell front "surfing" (we would sometimes reach 16+ knots in a 40' sloop while coming in under the Golden Gate while surfing). I would never surf a breaking wave.
Anyway, some (e.g., Harvey) seem to have understood my meaning, and have given me some interesting tips. Given that perspective, I guess I will continue to surf swells in my CD25 for the fun of it, working my way up in terms of height until I find the inevitable bow steer to be too scary, or at least uncomfortable, at which point, I will know not to attempt swells bigger than that.
There are a couple of issues with "surfing" waves and inlets/bars that should be mentioned. A wave that is not breaking when you get on the front of it in deeper water, might break later in shallower water. So just because it's not breaking now, doesn't mean it might not later. Also, when entering an inlet or river bar with the swells, if the swells are breaking, they are breaking on the side you can't see. So if there's any concern at all, it's best to stay on the back side of the wave/swell and keep a look out aftward so you can speed up a bit if needed.
We have had a few incidents of "bow steer". Very uncontrollable and the boat just did what it wanted. We have also taken green water over the bow enough to make it run off the roof. Not a fun feeling, either. I showed The Admiral this video as a learning tool. Needless to say, she did not like the above noted experiences. Broaching is among my greatest fears. I've had enough ocean experience actually surfing (on a board) to know what a wave can do to a boat.
thataway":2m9c9snv said:If you watch as he comes in, he is traveling faster than the wave sets. He should have slowed down, as he came to the area where the waves were cresting. When running a breaking inlet you have to have an awareness of the wave train speed, match the speed, and stay on the back face of a wave. Could a "rogue wave" defeat this? Yes, but not the circumstance here--plus part of running an inlet is also glancing aft as well as concentrating on where you are--and what is ahead. Situational awareness.Chester":2m9c9snv said:Did it seem the wave he was riding overtook the wave ahead?
Best explanation of how to navigate this I've seen yet...I've seen a ton of "what an idiot...drunk" posts with very little "OK what is the right way".
Let me ask this - does running a cat through those waters affect the way you navigate them? I suspect not, but figured I would ask.
Seems to me the key is watch the sets, ride the back of one wave, be prepared to throttle up/down, and trim up is the key.
I look at that water and pucker up...I just haven't seen stuff like that here in Tampa. Course I tend to watch the weather and don't push the envelope too much - pushed it a couple times, but in general I play it safe.
jbdba01":1i10m3lb said:Let me ask this - does running a cat through those waters affect the way you navigate them? I suspect not, but figured I would ask.
Seems to me the key is watch the sets, ride the back of one wave, be prepared to throttle up/down, and trim up is the key.
I look at that water and pucker up...I just haven't seen stuff like that here in Tampa. Course I tend to watch the weather and don't push the envelope too much - pushed it a couple times, but in general I play it safe.
The same holds true for catamarans. The semi displacement cat is perhaps even more likely to broach. There have been two incidences I know of with the Glacier Bay's doing a broach, not in an inlet, where one hull dug deeper, weight shifted in the boat, and bad things happened. It is less likely in a planing cat which is on a plane--but any cat is still subject. Having enough HP to keep the boat up with the waves, makes it easier.
You would be unlikely to have those conditions in Tampa, because the entrance (especially if you stick to Egmont Channel) is deeper, and it is unusual to have high wind and waves coming directly from the West, to give the same conditions as in Jupiter Inlet.
Off the coast of Portugal we had several instances where fishermen waited for us, to show us the way across their "home" breaking bar. However our boat was basically a double-ender (stern hull was pointy under the water), so the tendency to broach was slightly less than a broad stern at the waterline boat.