non self bailing- how safe?

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dianeandsteve4re

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Hi all, My name is Steve. I am thinking of buying a c dory 22'. I am concerned about having a boat that is not self draining. Will it sink completely or ? How big a bilge pump(s) do you need?
 
David,
I also have been concerned about taking non self bailing boats off shore. I saw my first C Dory22 in the late 1970's in Alamitos Bay. That "fool" took the 22, with a 75 hp outboard to Catalina almost every weekend of the year--for several years. Subsiquently I have owned a CD 22--and have been in water much rougher than you would normally find in the Catalina Channel, with no singinficant water (a little spray) onboard the CD 22.

The hull form is like a cork--basically this is a boat made to float over the waves, not to drive thru them. Could you get water in a CD 22 over the stern or cockpit combing? Yes, I suspose you could. There are a few folks who have anchored by the stern, or been in heavy breaking seas, who have put water in the cockpits---but this is partly a judgement call (what one is doing and when to go out)--as well as handling the boat.

Put a second bilge pump in if you like--but I suspect that you will never need it.
 
Steve

As always Bob pretty much nailed it.

For described situations you may want to take the time to sort through the clutter in the Grand Adventure Forum you will find several accounts of cruising in a CD 22 in fairly severe conditions where the cockpit stays virtually dry. There are many here experienced with all kinds of boats and the consensus seems to be that lack of self bailing is not a problem or concern with the CD 22.

I would recommend using the search on this subject, because it has come up many times, but I personally seldom use the search feature without coming out more confused then when I started and no doubt several will jump in Like Bob with good examples and advice.

Jay
 
I would say, that a self-bailing floor would be nice, but it is not needed. If the seas are so snotty that you are taking on water over the side, the stern, or whatever, those little holes that drain the floor are not going to help you at all. Use your head; it will stay really, really dry.
 
Self bailing decks put the floor above sea level which makes for a higher center of gravity and more motion for the occupants. You would have to be in some SERIOUS seas to be taking water over the stern. If you study the weather/ocean predictions you should never find yourself in that kind of water.


surfing_downhill.jpg
 
And if you do, they won't do you any good anyway.....
 
Steve,

In the 15 years I owned my 22, I operated in Southern Cal including to Catalina in the winter, on many inland lakes and from Washington to SE Alaska and I never took on any water except spray. I think you will collect more rain water than sea water in the cockpit.
 
Hi all, My name is Steve. I am thinking of buying a c dory 22'. I am concerned about having a boat that is not self draining. Will it sink completely or ? How big a bilge pump(s) do you need?
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If you look at the scuppers on most self bailing cockpits you will notice that they are quite low to the water. If the cockpit did fill with water the self bailers would be useless anyway since they would be under water. However for small amounts of water that do not cause any danger the water will of course drain out. I suppose you will find people that believe strongly that self bailers are important but I would trust my c-dory far more than many of the vessels out there with self bailers. Make sure your bilge pump is working and if you feel safer with two bilge pumps then do that as well. For myself I feel perfectly safe with one bilge pump that I take good care of and a good bucket if the "once in a life time " event happens to occur.

good luck

Ryder
 
Like all boats the CD 22 has some compromises, but safety and stability in big seas is very much a strong suit. In really rough stuff I'll get some splashing into the cockpit, easily pumped out if not ignored altogether. I'd personally rather the stability of the low CG than the "dry deck" of a self-bailing bilge design. Mike.
 
Speaking of big seas, last weekend I crewed for John Schuler on a run up to Bedwell Harbour on his new "C-Dory on Steroids" -- a 32' Coastal Craft which is laid out much like Clara, his old C-25. What really impressed me was the dogs on the cabin door. Made me feel like I was in a boat that was ready for any seas.

Warren
 
I agree with all of the above. Spray and rain get in the back and on only several occassions in 25 years have I had some go over the top of the cabin and into the cockpit but not much as it drains off to the side. I try to stay out of that kind of sea but sometimes one gets caught out in it and i can not think of a better boat to be in then.
Don't worry about no scuppers in a 22' dory as they are not needed.
I also have two 2000 Rule pumps, one in each corner and both on float switches with manual over ride.
A 22' C-dory is an extremely seaworthy little craft..
 
The lower floor results in a deeper, more secure cockpit.
IMO more useful than a self bailing cockpit that will have submerged scuppers when (if) seriously pooped.
 
IMO more useful than a self bailing cockpit that will have submerged scuppers when (if) seriously pooped.
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This is probably not the thread to discuss a 25's characteristics since the question is regarding a 22, but felt I should comment on the 25's scuppers. If water were to fill the cockpit right up to the top of the splashwell, yes, the scuppers would most likely be underwater.

However, the 'head' of the cockpit water above the outside water surface would continue to 'push' the water out the submerged scuppers -- as long as the stern of the boat was not being artificially pulled under (like anchored at the stern while in a current). As the water level in the cockpit goes down, the stern will lift until all of the water has exited. The engine head(s) should be high enough out of the water to continue running.

I additionally sealed all remaining pass-thru holes between the cockpit floor and the small bilge area to minimize water leakage should a catastrophic event like this occur (see in my photo section). My two bilge pumps (with float switches and manual overrides) are more than adequate to handle the small water leakage that will occur through the hatches.

I have been in cresting, 8-10ft waves with 25 knot winds and purposely shut down the motors to see how she handled -- beautifully, she turned directly downwind, very calm motion, stern lifted quickly during each wave encounter, no water in the cockpit except for an occasional splash. I would expect the CD22 to be equally seaworthy given the similar hull shapes.
 
In discussing a self-bailing boat vs. a CD 22, I think the fact that there is no hidden bilge in a CD22 is safety factor. A boat that is self bailing can have water get below decks and accumulate there unseen. Those boats depend on the operation of an unseen bilge pump to prevent foundering.

In a CD22 the amount of water, if any, in the cockpit is visible and the results of the operation of the bilge pump is also visible. Should a CD22 take on excess water, the water can be bailed with a bucket. Something that is not possible in a self bailing deck boat.
 
I'm not sure how a 22 is laid out regarding the aft bilge. However, it seems that the bilge pump should take care of any water in the cockpit, much better than any scupper drains. On my last sailboat, the cockpit was open through the transom, and any water that came in just flowed out, no pause. On the C-25, those two 1" drains, with a 2" head don't drain much. However, when the water drains to the bilge pump, there's a rather sturdy stream coming out. Instead of blocking off the cockpit, I'd assume that one would make sure that the water could easily reach the bilge pump. In fact, the scuppers are blocked off most of the time, to keep water from flowing in.

In summary, it's not the scuppers that keep you dry, it's the bilge pump.

Boris
 
Steve,

We lost a very capable and experienced Captain and his self bailing boat up here about four years ago, almost lost his deckhand as well. In the middle of winter he went out in very rough seas, so rough that the boat was taking on water while he was trying to find safe harbor. No one knows for absolutely sure as the boat sank, but the subsequent investigation believes that the scuppers froze over and then all it took was one good wave over the stern.

Scuppers or no scuppers, the absolutely best safety device or design on any boat is it's Captain. In my experience with our C-Dory, I have found that it is so capable that it allows an in-experienced Captain to get deeper into and out of danger than any other small boat, save perhaps a Boston Whaler.
 
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