One of the bolts that fastens my bow rail to the deck has develop a small leak. During very heavy and prolonged rains, it leaks through to the v-berth below. This is not a deluge, but a few drops. How should I go about fixing this? My gut reaction is take the bow rail off completely, inspect the bolt hole and fix it properly. However, all of the other bolts in all of the other places that fasten the bow rail to the deck are fine. And I can't just take off one part of the rail, it seems to be an all or nothing kind of deal (right?). I hate to unscrew 15 perfectly good bolts, WITH NO LEAKS, to fix one. Any thoughts?
One bolt is leaking. Advice sought.
- Thread starter johnr
- Start date
san juanderer
New member
Do it right. Remove the rail, camfer all the holes with a camfer drill bit, bead of sealant around the hole, place rail pads down with fasteners installed, tighten by turning nut ( not the fastener ). This creates an o-ring sealant ring at the surface of the deck. Is your deck cored ? Yes ? Don't wait, or the core will rot. Look at " Wild Blue's " windless mount. Hope this helps. Al
starcrafttom
Active member
You need to fix it but I think you could do it to just the one bolt from the inside of the boat.
Remove the one bolt and using a camfer bit or a short allen wrench in a drill remove the rot. Then filled as described above.
This would remove the chance of the one hole continuing to rot until you can or desire too remove all of the bolts.
Remove the one bolt and using a camfer bit or a short allen wrench in a drill remove the rot. Then filled as described above.
This would remove the chance of the one hole continuing to rot until you can or desire too remove all of the bolts.
I have had this happen to me before. Once even on a new c-dory. I took out the one bolt, propped up the rail to get some space under the base then cleaned out the hole and sealed it well. Took about an hour. Cleaning off the old sealant takes the most time. I know the proper thing to do would be to take all the bolts out and do them properly but couldn't bring myself to sacrifice time on the water for repairs that might not be needed.
Do it once and do it right. It may be that not all of the bolts of the bow rail go thru cored deck. It cqn vary. The right way, is to remove the rail. drill out each hole, then use a dremel tool bit on a flexable shaft or Demel tool and remove the core for about 1/4 " all aroung each fitting which is cored. Fill this with epoxy which is thickened--best to coat with unthickenned epxoy first, then the theickened epoxy. After that has cured, rebore the hole, put on a sealant--like 4200 (in some cases I have used 5200 to seal the hole permently, now that I know the deck was properly prepared. You say this is a big job? I did this on the cal 46--many times over the number of fittings that the C Dory had. I cruised the boat for 5 years full time, the next owner cruised it for 13 years full time--zero deck leaks. Now another nower is cruising the boat full time--This is the result of doing it right!
colbysmith
Active member
I had the same thing happen, and did what Lloyds did. Let it set, deluged it in more water with the hose to check for any leaks, and it remained dry. I hear what the others are saying about pulling the entire rail, reaming and the epoxy. But I really think that might be taking it farther than necessary. This is above water line. If that worried about moisture, perhaps just leaving the bolt out a few days to dry will suffice. OTOH, if you have the time, it certainly doesn't hurt to clean it all up and do the epoxy. Colby
san juanderer
New member
I have repaired many poorly sealed fittings. As mentioned, removing the core material is the best practice. I do this for round deck plates and rectangular hatches, 100% of the time. For a drill bit hole, I blue mask the underside. Then continue to feed laminating resin into the hole from the top until it stops absorbing the resin, finally filling the hole. When cured, drill it out and seal with the camfer cut on the top surface.
Here is a tip to remove the core, cut the head off several nails. Bend a sucession of nails starting with 1/4 protruding on the 90 degree bend, the next with 1/2 " , the next 3/4" , and so on. Use a cordless drill starting with the 1/4" first, and so on to remove the core. You will rip the balsa core with no problem. I have done this up to about 2" to remove bad core material. Then do the laminating resin, followed by a slurry mixture of fiberglass putty to fill the void between the fiberglass skins. Hope this helps.
Here is a tip to remove the core, cut the head off several nails. Bend a sucession of nails starting with 1/4 protruding on the 90 degree bend, the next with 1/2 " , the next 3/4" , and so on. Use a cordless drill starting with the 1/4" first, and so on to remove the core. You will rip the balsa core with no problem. I have done this up to about 2" to remove bad core material. Then do the laminating resin, followed by a slurry mixture of fiberglass putty to fill the void between the fiberglass skins. Hope this helps.
Thanks for all of the great advice. I'm not so worried that it would be a "big job" to take off the entire rail. I can do that. I was more thinking about the advisability of messing with bolts that aren't leaking. I'm reticent to fix something that's apparently not broken or leaking.
Upon close inspection, most of the rail mounts appear to be water tight and well sealed. The one that is leaking is an anomaly. It doesn't appear to be bedded in the same way. I don't know, maybe somebody did something to that particular bolt in the 32 years of this boat existence.
I'll probably wait for a warm, dry spell this spring and re-do the entire bow rail.
Upon close inspection, most of the rail mounts appear to be water tight and well sealed. The one that is leaking is an anomaly. It doesn't appear to be bedded in the same way. I don't know, maybe somebody did something to that particular bolt in the 32 years of this boat existence.
I'll probably wait for a warm, dry spell this spring and re-do the entire bow rail.
There are several reasons to use epoxy rather than polyester laminating resing. This includes better penetration of residual core, better adhesion in secondary bond to both core material, and fiberglass, and less brittle than polyester resin.
Agree that all of damaged core should be removed, and using bent coat hanger or nails works well- For most jobs, a deemel bit wors best for me--but if extended beyond the superfical area, the nail/coat hanger works fine. Be sure and get all of the rot out.
Agree that all of damaged core should be removed, and using bent coat hanger or nails works well- For most jobs, a deemel bit wors best for me--but if extended beyond the superfical area, the nail/coat hanger works fine. Be sure and get all of the rot out.
T.R. Bauer
New member
My boat is not far behind.....Then again, mine hardly ever gets wet as it spends about 48 weeks of the year in a heated garage next to my Winnebago. But back the original post: do what Bob said.......it will only take twice as long to do it that way and it will last about 100 times longer.
OP here. So, I took off the entire rail today. Of the 12 bolts holding the four rail posts to the deck, two were leaking, one was significant with some very wet balsa core. I'm reaming it out now to see how extensive. I have a question about the camfer cut at the top. What is the purpose of camper cut? Should I do it on the top and bottom, or just the top?
There are two reasons to do a "chamfer" cut (Bevel, or counter sink is perhaps a better description). One is to prevent gel coat from cracking back for a distance during drilling the hole in the first place.
The second is to allow a better seal when you finally put a sealant under the deck round foot, and put the bolt thru.
So we now know that the core is not really fossilized…but there is some rot of the core in that area.
After the core is removed, you will be filling this area with thickened epoxy, and then redrilling the hole. Is a beveled edge essential--no, but it is a good idea, to get the best seal with the 4200 or 4000 sealant.
A bevel cut is not necessary at the bottom, since that is not immersed in water, and the sealant is not necessary on the bottom as it is on the top.
The second is to allow a better seal when you finally put a sealant under the deck round foot, and put the bolt thru.
So we now know that the core is not really fossilized…but there is some rot of the core in that area.
After the core is removed, you will be filling this area with thickened epoxy, and then redrilling the hole. Is a beveled edge essential--no, but it is a good idea, to get the best seal with the 4200 or 4000 sealant.
A bevel cut is not necessary at the bottom, since that is not immersed in water, and the sealant is not necessary on the bottom as it is on the top.
johnr":1kn4mgyj said:
Hello John,
As Bob as said, the chamfer goes on the TOP/OUTSIDE of the fitting. You DO NOT seal the inside...you want to know if there is leaking so the sealant/bedding compound goes topside only.
Look at the Compass Marine tutorial here (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/rebedding_hardware) it really puts into pictures the idea of removing some core material and replacing it with epoxy to permanently seal the core from any future leak. The chamfer creates a depression for sealant to reside...otherwise there is no place for a significant amount of sealant to do its work.
The Compass Marine guy really likes to use Butyl tape for sealing deck hardware rather than 4200 or 5200...that is your choice...the chamfer, core removal/seal with epoxy steps are MANDATORY to do it right.
Fair winds and sealed hardware,
dave
Robert H. Wilkinson
New member
Leaks are not just a problem with old boats. My boat(not a Cdory) had leaks from new. Bow rail, deck hatch, and under the windshield. For warranty the dealer offered me a tube of silicon and told me to just put a bead around the offending areas on the outside. :shock: Yes sir, that's exactly why I traded in an old boat and put a mortgage on my house to buy a new boat from you! :roll: I removed the bow rails, windshield, hatch and re bedded them myself.
Not sure if it was mentioned on this thread yet but when drilling the chamfer it is best to run the drill in reverse. Some people also recommend a layer of masking tape over the area to be drilled. This helps prevent cracking the gel coat.
Chucko - if by "plugs" you mean the caps that cover the ends of the bolts that protrude below the cuddy headliner, you can buy them from most reputable hardware stores. They come in various sizes to fit different bolts. Mine were held on with a bit of adhesive, so most were damaged removing them. Not a big expense and yes they do make it look original again as well as offering a bit of protection to your head if you hit them.
Regards, Rob
Not sure if it was mentioned on this thread yet but when drilling the chamfer it is best to run the drill in reverse. Some people also recommend a layer of masking tape over the area to be drilled. This helps prevent cracking the gel coat.
Chucko - if by "plugs" you mean the caps that cover the ends of the bolts that protrude below the cuddy headliner, you can buy them from most reputable hardware stores. They come in various sizes to fit different bolts. Mine were held on with a bit of adhesive, so most were damaged removing them. Not a big expense and yes they do make it look original again as well as offering a bit of protection to your head if you hit them.
Regards, Rob
I'd have to agree with san juanderer and Dr Bob...PIA as it is, do it right, the first time, one time, and it will last forever.
I have to pull our windlass to back cut/full the hause pipe; it was just sealed w/ a white sealant from the factory or whoever installed it. Will it be "easy"? No. Do I look "forward" to it? No. But it has to be done.
I have to pull our windlass to back cut/full the hause pipe; it was just sealed w/ a white sealant from the factory or whoever installed it. Will it be "easy"? No. Do I look "forward" to it? No. But it has to be done.
chucko":19keuep8 said:
This thread is about the bolts which hold the circular base of the bow rail in place. I have seen both 10 x 24 and 12 x 24 round phillips head machine screws used in this application. It would be unusual to break these.
On the underside, I have done several different things. One is to put a SS rubber lined clip, and hang hammocks for clothes, or "sheet bags" modified to hold items right against the hull. (Book, Kindle, Flashlight, gun, ammo, etc). This requires a washer and second nut. (Usually an acorn nut).
I have cut them off flush with the nut, or I have cut them with about 1/8" showing (both with Dremel tool cut off wheel), and put an acorn nut on the end of the screw which was protruding.
Maybe you are referring to the pop rivets which hold the SS railing, with vinyl insert over the hull to deck joint. That has been replaced by SS pop rivets; I would use 3/16", x5/16" (as I recollect, you may get by with 1/4"--check the depth with a gauge). You can also use flat head machine screw and counter sunk. I would start with 1/2". The factory put either some bedding compound, or epoxy on the inside, and then gelcoat/painted over it.
Yes Bob ,I confused bow rail with rub rail. I have a few popped rivets but worried about removing redoing the whole rail. There shouldn't be any coring in this area is there?? I have seen no leaks and just gathering info as to what to do next.Again this is the RUB RAIL.thanks as always for any input.
chucko,
Not that Thataway would not give you great advice (as I know he would), but there are a few good threads on this already. I consulted a few before I did my rub rail, and then also made a thread for what I did. That is here, around 1/3 of the way down the page:
http://www.c-brats.com/viewtopic.php?p=267126
The previous threads (which were super helpful - I was so glad that folks before me had written it up) can be found by searching "rub rail."
On the inner "caps," they are just blobs of caulk (polysulfide in my case) that were sprayed over with gelcoat. As you'll see in the thread, there are a couple of options for how to handle the repair.
Not that Thataway would not give you great advice (as I know he would), but there are a few good threads on this already. I consulted a few before I did my rub rail, and then also made a thread for what I did. That is here, around 1/3 of the way down the page:
http://www.c-brats.com/viewtopic.php?p=267126
The previous threads (which were super helpful - I was so glad that folks before me had written it up) can be found by searching "rub rail."
On the inner "caps," they are just blobs of caulk (polysulfide in my case) that were sprayed over with gelcoat. As you'll see in the thread, there are a couple of options for how to handle the repair.