outa juice?

[dotnmarty]

Well, I thought I'd post this in light of the recent discussion of ethanol and energy stuff. On my daily walk I see more and more all-electric cars as well as hybrids. At least one C-Brat has mentioned how much he enjoys his Chevy Volt. As a 50 some year member of AAA I'm glad to see they are 'getting with the program' so to speak.
http://www.geekwire.com/2013/aaa-electr ... ng-mobile/

 

[thataway]

OK--one truck-in one area--and 15 minute charge gives you 10 miles (if you are lucky)...I can see this in some metropolitan areas. Still think the hybrids may be better--but then a small engine vehicle, carefully driven, will probably over all leave a smaller carbon footprint over the life of the vehicle than an all electric car.

On the other hand there are "land sailors"--or wind propelled skate boards..

 

[dotnmarty]

Charging stations are popping up all over this area. Of course walking and bike riding are good too.

 

[JamesTXSD]

Doing our part: the new scooters get 100 mpg.

Um, yeah, don't look at that big red truck over there. :wink:

 

[starcrafttom]

Neighbor of father bought a electric car to commute to Vegas every day. Spent $60k?? after one year the battery is toast. New one $30K? . I think I will stick to real cars or motorcycles for now.

 

[potter water]

I have no doubt that electric cars for reasonable commutes will see the mass produced numbers get the price down and the charge stations a common thing. But it is for the braver of heart than me to do plunge in and deal with all of the growing pains.

I bought my first bike in 30 years last summer and used it a lot. I also dug out my Honda Trail 90, 1979 model, dusted it off, oiled it, fueled it and it ran after sitting for almost 20 years. Not getting 100 mpg, but I am getting an honest 85. I'm sure I'm polluting like a 1971 chevy wagon though.

It is great how Americans get along with or in spite of government.

I've also become a fan of the much maligned and hated "Front Runner" train that runs from Odgen, UT to Provo Utah now. I will always be happy as a tax payer to subsidize rail systems, particularly those that are electric and serve local populations. (The only thing Mr. Obama and I agree on).

BUT, when I want to get into my diesel and tow my dory or my fifth wheel, I want the freedom and option and fuel prices that will allow me to do it. I want to take my gun along too.

 

[ghone]

I'm looking forward to low gas prices as more folks buy electric cars. Electricity prices in general will go up with demand, so gas for me. And off grid too Recall the low cost of diesel 10 years ago. Now it's more than gas as folks bought the diesel vehicles. Supply and demand baby. I doubt the whole global warming deal. We froze our a$$&87 !!! off this winter. Suzuki can't even get the active volcanoes turned off. This rock we're riding still has a molten magma core! I would be slow to believe the media. George. If one must go electric it best be a hybrid. I can't see myself in one and looking up at a Peterbilt. Oohhhh very scary.

 

[20dauntless]

I was in a Tesla Model S a few weeks back and it's one cool car! Expensive? Absolutely. Limited range? Sure. But it looks amazing, both inside and out, is shockingly fast (pun intended!), is comfortable, smooth, and quiet, and apparently handles quite well. It's really unlike any car I've ever been in before, but in a good way. For people into gadgets, technology, and performance, it's awesome.

It's still a niche product, targeted at very high end car buyers, but historically many advancements in cars have started at the high end (airbags, stability control, fuel injection, etc). I don't think electric cars are going to replace conventional cars completely, at least in the short term, but they definitely have some very compelling attributes (like instant torque). We're not talking about a glorified golf cart here, but a full fledged performance car capable of a 3.9 second sprint to 60mph. That's comparable performance to the equally expensive Mercedes E63 AMG, but the Mercedes gets 12mpg!

With electric chargers popping up in ever more places, advances in batteries, and (hopefully) lower costs, electric cars should become more practical over time.

 

[thataway]

OK here is another "Electric Car--errr hybrid" The Jag C- X75
"A single motor isn't enough to get this silky monster up to 205-mph. Rather, it has four of them -- one for each wheel. Meanwhile, during heavy acceleration the batteries are topped-up with two recently invented, tiny gas-turbines -- akin to jet engines, but small enough to be mounted in a car. The benefit of that, as opposed to a typical hybrid gas engine, is that turbines have fewer parts and thus weigh less. Jaguar is claiming a projected range of 560 miles.

Anyway! About the looks: The flowing lines were inspired by wind-tunnel visualizations of air being sucked into those micro turbines. That motif was carried through inside and out, as you can see in the pics below. Meanwhile, the car's basic proportions and style cues come from one of the most beautiful Jaguars ever made, the XJ13."

My son in law got to drive this car on the Jag Test track--but he was limited to 185 mph. Cost of production (canceled because of world economic crisis) was going to be $1.14 to $1.48 per car. Range was 60 miles on electric only... Actually a fairly low emissions car, with a wide range of fuels form biosynthetics to CNG and LPG to run the turbines.

 

[ferret30]

The Tesla Model S comes with 3 battery capacities, 85kWh, 60kWh and 40kWh, with 265 mi, 208 mi, and 160 mi ranges respectively.

The 40kWh model is $57,500, the 60kWh is $10k more, and the 85kWh is another $10k.

When you consider that these cars are in the same segment with BMW 5/6 series, Audi A6, Jaguar, etc., and are priced similarly, it's not a huge premium if you were already looking at one of those other options.

Tesla started with a modified Lotus Elise to build excitement and recognition. Then came the Model S, an electric luxury sport sedan. I'd bet money they're going to be in competition with Prius, Leaf and Volt in the next few years with a lower end model.

 

[Robert H. Wilkinson]

Even if we could mass produce a cheap electric car that would be reliable for years,,,, even if we could find enough merchants willing to install charging stations, and even if they were willing to spend $$$$ to buy up prime real estate for the parking spaces necessary, there is another very elementary problem.

We do not have anywhere near the grid capacity or the transmission lines to provide the currents that all these charging stations would require.

The next thing is what method would all the tree huggers like to use to generate all this power?? Nuclear?? Coal?? Flood farmland for hydraulic power?? Windpower - that these same yuppys are now blaming for all sorts of ailments?? Ontario has put up thousands of these around Lake Erie, and people even complain that they block their view - the same with solar panels.

The cars might be green but the power that they use sure doesn't fall off trees!!

The only free and green power that I know of maybe is that little charger that Bob, or somebody talked about here - where you lift up a rock and as its weight falls it generates power to charge your phone, etc.!! Maybe we have to go back to Bedrock to be green!! :lol:

 

[ferret30]

The next thing is what method would all the tree huggers like to use to generate all this power?? Nuclear?? Coal?? Flood farmland for hydraulic power?? Windpower - that these same yuppys are now blaming for all sorts of ailments?? Ontario has put up thousands of these around Lake Erie, and people even complain that they block their view - the same with solar panels.

Comments and opinions like this aren't very useful in my opinion. Are you assuming everyone here is like minded, or are you trying to stir things up?

Back on topic, just because the infrastructure doesn't yet exist everywhere doesn't mean we should stop trying. I'd bet the first automotive gasoline distribution infrastructure came after the invention of the gas powered automobile.

 

[Robert H. Wilkinson]

Hi Ferret, you are right - when cars first became available to more and more people in the early 1900's - the supply of gas was found, the distribution infrastructure built and the demand met.

No I'm not assuming to know the minds of any Bratts - never met one - not many around these here parts. I do believe we are a reasonable, logical and like minded group, by and large and count them as friends. Like Sunbeam said the other day " the fact that we can agree to disagree and still get along is what makes this forum great."

Back to topic, I am all for going green - I just finished reading the book - The Plastiki Expedition, and was appalled at the mess we are making of our oceans(and its inhabitants). My intent was to raise 2 questions -

1/ Before we all rush out and buy an electric car - do we have a plan in place, or have we even thought about where all this new power is going to come from?

2/ Is driving this car going to be greener - factoring in all considerations, cradle to grave?

I just heard that some places have banned certain electric cars because they are too silent and pose a threat to pedestrians.

No I am not anti electric or think we should stop trying. I don't have 60-80K to buy one, but if I did I would not be against the idea. However if I did and my shiny new car was stuck in my driveway because there was a transformer blown, brownout, blackout,etc. I wouldn't be real happy with it.

To bring this into a boating prospectus,,, would you launch your boat and start out on a cruise with only a few gallons of gas? or would you try to figure out how you were going to aquire the fuel for the trip beforehand?

Just some questions flitting around in my mind. :? No offence intended to anyone Ferret. Haven't heard much from you lately - glad to see you back.

Regards, Rob

 

[G Gallagher]

OK, Have you seen the new C-Max? I have been a "Toyota guy" since 1984, but we, my wife, just bought our first Ford.

I am impressed !!! It's a new hybrid that is getting 47 MPG. Has a gas engine and battery. No charging station, just put foot on brake and come to a slow stop at stop signs. It recharges thru brake friction. Looks great, comfortable,and has good amenities. It drives smoothly, will park itself in a parrall space as long as you have a foot clearance.

No, I don't sell cars and can't even believe that I'm talking Ford

Some amazing stuff these days. :roll: :smiled :smilep

 

[rogerbum]

Rob - while it's definitely true that the power will have to come from somewhere, I think your statement that "We do not have anywhere near the grid capacity or the transmission lines to provide the currents that all these charging stations would require" may not be quite correct. Of all the power currently used in the U.S. about 28% is in transportation and about 40% is in electricity (see - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_ ... _by_source). Hence we already deliver more power over the electrical grid that we use in transportation. Since batteries can be charged in off peak hours, I'm willing to be that the transmission capability is already sufficient or nearly sufficient.

The production of this electricity will definitely require some energy source. As one of the oft maligned "tree huggers" and someone who you might label a yuppy, I'm not against the use of nuclear power (as an aside, I think those labels do little to help anyone's arguments and they serve only as a way to belittle others with whom the user disagrees). I also realize that alternate fuel sources such as solar are playing an ever increasing role in our energy production and I expect that to continue. Some countries in Europe have very realistic plans to get substantial portions of their electricity from solar in the not too distant future. For example -"Germany has a goal of producing 35% of electricity from renewable sources by 2020 and 100% by 2050".

I'm also realistic enough to know that in the short term, additional electrical demands will most likely be met by burning of fossil fuels. However, one huge potential advantage of electric cars is that the fossil fuels can be burned in more centralized locations where both pollution controls and carbon sequestration is potentially far more tractable relative to when the fuel is burned in millions of cars all over the roads.

 

[Captains Cat]

Have you checked Snopes?

Charlie

 

[thataway]

Some of our earliest power sources were hydroelectric. In fact I believe that the first generating station in S. Calif. was on the Santa Ana River (Mentone generating station--I used to drive by the monument--and my father was an early employee of S. Calif. Edison company, who told me about it). There are reasons we have taken down some of the hydro stations and dams--but that still is an alternative.

I believe the problem with transmission lines is that the areas where there are viable solar or wind farms are often remote from the area where the power is required. Thus new, and expensive-both from construction and right of way issues, transmission lines need to be made. There are those who would argue that transmission lines, solar plants and wind farms are also environmentally damaging.

I don't know the current balance of power-but there are discounts for using power off hours--but if we go to more solar or wind power, then there has to be alternative generation for those times when it is dark or the wind is now blowing.

I also happen to be in favor of nuclear power. There are smaller package type of plants which are very safe. There are some problems with nuclear waste, but some countries cope better with that than we do. Plus a lot of our nuclear waste issues are left over from early days--like Hanford.

 

[Hunkydory]

Of the different available sources of electrical generating power for the increase of electric powered autos in the future, solar has not been faring well of late with operating losses & company bankruptcies & the tax payer picking up the tab for the government guaranteed loans, but possibly that will change. Another, wind is expensive & will only become really cost competitive if the cost of fossil fuel is artificially raised or for what ever reason the supply is curtailed without a decrease in demand. The main reason (Anyone feel free to correct me if my information is wrong or outdated) wind power is so expensive compared to fossil fuel is due to the winds fluctuating generation of electrical power must be modulated by having natural gas plants with generation capacity equal to the wind & operating crews at the gas plants always on stand by to go on line as the wind generation goes off, so when the wind generators are producing, there is always the added cost of the gas plants with crews in standby mode. Combine this with gas on its own being more expensive then coal generated electricity & wind becomes cost competitive only by being subsidized again by tax dollars. The positive side of this to me is the US coal reserves, which are the worlds largest, being saved for the future when the rest of the world will likely run out of oil reserves & then the coal can be converted to oil. The negative on this is coal usage cost is being raised & at the same time demand lowered by the additional cost of increased government mandated pollution controls in the coal electrical generation plants, increasing use of subsidized wind & solar & lower natural gas prices, causing the coal mining companies to lower there operating cost by only taking out low production cost coal & leaving the more expensive to mine, which is creating a condition, where a increasing percentage of the coal reserves will be impossible or extremely expensive to mine in the future.

Jay

 

[Stan Major]

When I retired the first time a few years ago, I thought I would like to have a boat. Not knowing anything about mechanics, I became fascinated with the Duffy Electric Boat Company. Beautiful looking boats (as are the C-Dories). Wish I had known about them in 2006. Anyway, in line with this discussion, electric propulsion is probably the future. In Europe there is an electric outboard capable of producing 30 HP. Very expensive at this stage in the technology. Batteries are the issue. Heavy and expensive to replace after 5 to 7 years. With further technology and development in lithium ion batteries, the cost and the weight will come down and someday we may see a C-Dory quietly cruising on electric power.

 

[rogerbum]

Jay,

I agree with much of what you said but I think if you look into it in more detail, you'll find that there are many solar companies that are doing quite well but that don't make the national news (which tends to talk mostly about disasters and problems).

As for the cost of fossil fuel going up - it will continue with or without any government intervention to "artificially" make it increase. As the economies of India and China provide more and more money for their citizens (who want increased mobility just like us), the demands will continue to rise at an ever increasing pace. So alternative fuels will become more and more cost competitive over time as the cost of fossil fuels will continue to rise.

From a policy perspective, the question is not IF but WHEN and whether or not the U.S. wants to lead or lag in the area of alternative energy sources. Government can let the marketplace handle things or it can attempt to make investments in R&D to help the direction along.