Outfitting a New TomCat 255

Here's another note on Consumers' Marine Electronics that Gene mentioned above: I tried to find a Gulf of Mexico Platinum card for our E-80, and the closest one was about 500 miles away in Kemah, TX. I did a quick search and found consumersmarie.com. Their price for the cf card was considerably less than WM or Boaters World (and no sales tax since it was out of state). I had the card in 2 days. Heck, at $2.19/gal for fuel (on the water, we're paying under 2 bucks on the road), I save enough for a couple days of cruising! :D

Just a little heads-up for anyone needing the Platinum cards.

Best wishes,
Jim B.
 
Most, if not all depth finder transducers used in the US are made by Airmar: http://www.airmar.com/

You have to remember a number of things about depth finder transducers:
They are frequency specific--some at 200 khz, some at 205, some a 183, some at 50 etc. So the frequency must match.

The cable is part of the circuit and shielding is important--they can be spliced, but my recommendation is not to.

The end fittings are often unique to the brand of depth finder.

The NMEA 2000 Buss transducers may be using a common fitting (since this is part of the standard). However even though my Lowrance LCX 26 C HD is NMEA 2000, the depth finder circuit is NMEA 0183. We may find that in the future that sounder transducers may be more compatable between brands. For example, the Lowarance fuel flow meters apparently work on the Ray Marine "E" series--both being NMEA 2000.
Same for instrument guages.

At times it is cheaper to buy the transducer from Airmar--or you may get a transducer more suitable for your application than the standard factory unit.

Another hint--is to screw a 3/4" piece of Starboard on the lower transom, and screw any transducers into that, rather than into the hull--it is easier to change or move--and you don't end up with a hull full of holes and water intrusion into the lower transom.

I purchase almost all of my electroncis/chart chips etc on line. Most are drop shipped from the manufacture, so you get the latest updates. Some are downloaded at the local dealers--but if it is an instock or warehouse item, I would be suspicious about not being the most recent update. All of the chart manufactures have the most recent version on the web sites so you can double check your copy. I would be interested to know if Jim thinks that the Platinum chips are that much better than the Gold or silver.
Unfortunately my plotter does not use the platinum series--but I have the C map MAX on another plotter--which I think is comperable...But may not have quite as good bathyspheric data--especially 3 D modeling (or if it does I haven't figured out how to use it). If you are using the 3 D bathyspheric mode--how useful is this for you?
 
Thanks guys... I accidentally found some really good prices on a site called "Ultimate Passage" from Ohio. They have a good interactive network building program to help with compatibility and direct links to the manufacturers.

I will keep on plugging, but have to decide soon in order to get all the pieces in time.


Also, dtol, while it is possible that some specific units from differing manufacturers use the same basic transducer, even different models of the same manufacturer do not all use the same transducer. There are power levels, frequencies, and all kinds of differing data flows from different transducers, so it would be playing Russian Roulette to just throw together a display and transducer without the manufacturer's certifying they will work together. It is hard enough to get all this working together with matching units!

John
 
Thanks for the good advice, So, I guess what I am hearing is that it wouldn't be a good idea to do a thru hull transducer to get the best sensing location because you may need to splice the cable for a different unit or change it althgether to get the next technology.

I know that most typical uses can be accomodated by a duel frequency transduce 50/200. Others are for special needs such as extreme depth or side looking etc and for most, a waste of money.
 
Bob,

Isn't the Sounder sentence that is transmitted via NMEA limited to just depth? According to the Lowrance rep I talked to a while back if you want to view all the sonar detail you actually need to have a separate transducer for their units OR put an A-B switch on the transducer cable so that you can manually switch from one machine to the other.

I know that with Raymarine you can network the Sounder information because their system is digital and works over the eithernet network rather than through the NMEA bus. I'm pretty sure that the new Garmin is the same way although I could be wrong.
 
A dual frequency 50/200 is a good choice. I have only 200, because I really don't care about depths over a couple of hundred feet. For most of the C Dories--I feel that transom mount is better. You really don't want to put another thru hull thru the balsa core. This involves cutting the hole, then cutting out balsa around the hole, filling this with epoxy, and finally smoothing the hole, so you can bed in the transducer. I don't want a thru hull proud of the hull since it may be damaged on the trailer, so I would get a flush thru hull.

The Echo pilot and Interphase are foreward looking sonars, but I am not impressed in sand bottoms with a gradual slope. They are limited in foreward looking by the depth of the water. They show an abrupt ledge or rock best--but if you are looking 600 feet ahead, you better be going slowly.

The Hummingbird, semi side scan looks interesting, but I don't think it is worth springing the bucks for it. On the fishing forums there is not much mention of it--so it apparently does not have a lot of appeal to the hard core fishermen. I think it would be awesome to have a real side scan or 360degree rotating beam scanning sonar--but just not practical on a C Dory.

I have found that the internet order service at BOE or Boat fix.com has been excellent. Sometimes you like to talk to someone who is knowlegable in the gear they are selling.

Ben Ellison's column at: http://www.panbo.com/ is an excellent way of keeping up with advances in marine electronics.
 
dtol":1rlbn1g9 said:
I am also of the understanding that thru hull provides more consistent readings than a transom mount. Correct?
Click to expand...

At least on the 22/25, that's never been the case based on reports here (use the search.) Transom mount works just fine, and has none of the disadvantages. The only time I lose bottom on mine is when traveling at very high speeds (~20+) over very deep water (~350+). Not exactly a situation where I care about depth.

Another reason to avoid thru-hull transducers...replacement. If the unit fails, or you decide to upgrade down the road and need a different transducer, good luck getting the old one out.
 
Sorry Gary, I must have been composing my post and missed yours.
Yes, the NMEA sentencing which is read on the Radar and other screens is just depth. I don't know, but suspect if you had two Lowrance LCX series instruments you could probably display the fishfinder/sonar echos (like A scope and bottom trace) on both screens, but I do not know that for a fact. I don't know if the sonar information directly from the transducer can be networked. You can certainly do this with the GPS data--but it is NMEA 2000... I know that the LCX series are being closed out at excellent prices, because a new series is being introduced in Jan 07, and I suspect that we will see a lot of improvements--maybe comperable to the networking of the Furuno and RayMarine instruments. I doubt if these will be backward compatable.

My Lowrance "skimmer" transducer holds on to the bottom at full WOT speed of 43 knots--but we have only run it at that speed in relitatively shallow water. It may loose bottom lock in deeper water--but we have to go many miles to find 350 feet on the Gulf!.. I may have it a little lower than necessary, but since the outboards are 24" back, there doesn't seem to be any adverse affect from this--

We had a bottom line unit on the 22 and never lost bottom on it from the transom transducer either (unless we accidently kicked up the transducer)
 
Well you guys are changing my thinking on transducers, especially since if you do a thru hull, your stuck with what you have. I see these charter boat captains chasing fish and talking about marking fish that I never see. I was wanting to spend extra for a top quality sounder system since fishing is a large part of what we do in a boat. I thought that a thru hull transducer was part of what made their systems so effective.

As far as auto-pilots go, I can't see spending big bucks for one. I see them about as functional for small boats as a cruise control is in a car. It gives you a chance to relax a bit but you still have to be alert and drive.

My 17 year old had a whale surface right in front of him at 22 miles per in our 22 Cruiser. He got stopped a mere 6 feet away. Wouldn't have been pretty if someone wasn't paying attention because of an auto-pilot. I was asleep on the bunk. The best auto-pilot is a trainable youngster like him. We often use multiple sets of eyes to watch for logs and other unpleasant things in the water while at speed.

Therefor I wouldn't pay big bucks for an auto-pilot for my new boat, what ever it will turn out to be. But a cheaper one could give a little relief on long trips. or if you have to leave the helm for a few seconds while trolling etc.

No one seems to be talking about the Raymarine smartpilot 1000 which could be purchased for under $1000. It works with hydrolic steering, connects to the GPS etc, like the big ones. Any thoughts. Sometimes the perspective trends toward the best of the best when simplicity might be better.
 
dtol-

No doubt there will also be direct answers to your questions, but here are some options in the meantime:

Here's a previous thread specifically on the Raymarine Smart Pilot 1000"

LINK

You can also look under the Forums in the Library under "Motor Control Systems" for various autopilot discussions, and put the word "autopilot" into the search engine.

Joe.
 
As I see sounders right now there are two major players: Furuno is one of the top for fish finding and has been for a long time: FCV 585 and FCV 620 are the major recreational/charter boat players. The other ones highly touted are the Lowrance higher end units with dual frequency tranducers. The Lowrance are available in transom mount,but the very best results are thru hull mount using an Airmar transducer.

Of course, it may be that the charter boat fishermen have an advantage and that is that they find fish everyday for a living. I'll be frank, the Lowrance unit gives a fantastic pattern, more bottom detail, but I see fish better right now on a cheap hummingbird unit I have on the 18 foot CC. Why? because the cheap Hummingbird shows me the little fish symbols....
I just haven't had enough time over structure and bottoms to learn this perticular depth sounder. I have seen screen shots of both the Lowrance, Furuno and RayMarine, showing excellent bottom struture with fish IDed by the poster.

As for the autopilots: Because I agree that at planing speed, I don't trust the pilot, unless in open waters--with no basking sharks, sun fish, pilot whales or logs. The boat is fast enough for my needs so far I have not gotten into the autopilot (besides Marie says its not necessary, she wants to drive!)

There is a Version 3.1 soft ware for the Raymarine 1000 which apparently makes the unit much better at low speeds--down to two knots--and in one case one knot, in flat seas. Almost everyone (including RayMarine Tech support) says that 24 feet is the limit of size of boat this pilot was designed for. I talked to my local electronics dealer--he said if I needed the S1 6000 (or S1G)--$1200 for the autopilot and $1200 for the install. First, I would go with the S1G--which has the rate gyro--adds about $700 to the unit, and he is way off on the install, since I already have line run to pull the wires for the rotary feed back (they still would do the feedback unit install) and I would do the rate gyro and head install, they would hook up and bleed the system, probably about $360 labor--but we are not at that point yet. Beside that was assuming I was not over 10 cu inches displacement--and I am with the two cylinders. The other question is that the Sea Star rams are the 5345 rams x 2--each ram is 8.3 cu inch--and the smaller pumps are designed for up to 8 cu inches--the 5345 is specifically mentioned as being suitable for the S1000 pumpset, BUT, that is with one ram--there are two rams on the cats or twin engine C D 25's. If you go with an S2 core pack and a type one pump you can go up to 14 cu inches--and probably get away with the type one pump....But better is the S 2 core pack and the type two pump which will be good for up to 20 cu inches (If I did my math correctly). Now that all boosts the cost up over 2500 (uninstalled).....So if you stick with a smaller boat and auto pilot ram, it costs you less. The larger rams require more substantial pump volume and pressure, this transulates into heavier duty switching devices for the pump motors--and more costs.
 
Bob,
As I am sure you know, your Lowrance will also do fish symbols with depths and beeps and boops.

I don't prefer that myself, but it is a personal thing.

M
 
Does anyone have experience with Comrod VHF antennas, and do they provide a significant advantage over the Shakespere Galaxy antennas? Their price would indicate that they would. My dealer who outfits some pretty intense boats for the Alaska waters (not sport boats) uses them when the best is needed.
 
Can you pre-plan your cruise if you only have the laptop and the software packager? ...or do you have to have the E80 right there while planning? Does the Raymarince computer software have actual maps in it? Doe the Raymarine software set-up ($600) include a keyboard? The write up is confusing.
 
Your right about the descriptive write-ups. They are stragegically done to enhance certain features and to hide the lack of certain features as they compete with products from other makers. They always seem to leave out that tid-bit of information that would give you what you need to make your decision.

You can spend hours searching on the computer and never find what you need.

Thats why a forum like this is so valuable. You can find out from experienced users in real time what you need to know about features and performance. You can even observe debates between users committed to different products.
 
You are right, of course. But use our comments with caution, because many Brats are boating in different areas - and different situations.

Prime example: I would place an autopilot at just about the top of my list. Typically run long distances in restricted visibility, and the pilot is like having an experienced helmsman aboard (and you don't have to carry on a conversation). I can concentrate on drift in the water, other vessels in the area, the radar and GPS - and not worry about holding a heading. And I'd be the first to agree with many who wouldn't want one aboard. To each his own!!

As to brand preference - difficult to get a pure answer. Each skipper has to justify the spent bucks, and it would be difficult to find a bad one now. I use Garmin on one boat and E-80 on another... both do the job.

Now if I could get the danged fish to bite! The sounder shows a whole herd down there, and I can't get a nibble. :( :cry

Duster
 
I have never used a Comrad antenna--but there are a number of antennas which are better than Shakespheare. The Shakespheare is basically a mass marketed product--and I am not all that impressed with their quality control. Since I am a Ham, I take my antenna analyzer with me when buying an antenna. There is a huge variation in the same model antennas. A company which has good quality control will produce a superior antenna. My presonal preference in the less expensive antennas is Digital. I have the top of the line Shakespheare--which I tested and found it to be good--but the Digital which cost about $50 more out preforms it.
 
I'm having ALL Furuno Nav2.Radar Finder /Plotter autoPilot ect on my new TomCat.........it has a 8x10 sreen.... will fit...Commerial Quality..... not Recreation quality...not all the ..bells and new toys as the RayMarine...but more reliable and proven... Japanese vs British quality....too many problems with Raymarine..go to the Hulltruth forum the web....lots of Raymarine probs...my dealer has had alot more problems with Raymarine than Furuno

Dick 255 TomCat
 
As an ex Furuno dealer I'd probably agree - except I use and prefer Raytheon at the moment. I'll change tomorrow :roll:
They ALL have problems - just some more visible on the web than others. On my last three C Dory boats the Raymarine system has been great. And it will be installed on the next one.

Dusty
 
I have used mostly Furuno gear on my long distance cruising boats--and the quality is excellent. But there are different levels of Furuno as there are for many other of the navionics manufacturers. Furuno was behind on the chart plotters for a few years--seem to have caught up recently. (The redraw time was slow) But there are advantages of each of the various products. For example I find it very handy to have a chart plotter which has a hard drive with both all US NOAA charts, US Topo and street maps, as well as Navionics chips, with extremely fast redraw times. (Lowrance). For example--on the ICW, it is nice to be able to identify what bridge you are going under for hailing purposes. Also it is very handy to know where the stores or land features are located in reference to anchorages.

To put Radar, chart plotter and fishfinder on an 8 x 10 screen is crowding things a bit too much for me--and that is the reason I chooose a 7" chart plotter/fishfinder, plus a second 6.5" chart plotter with different cartography, and a separate 7" radar. This maximizes the screen real
estate on the C Dory. Also I don't like to put all of my navigational aids in one basket. If one screen fails you have no back up. Incidently I would think twice about putting a chart plotter moniter on the console face--there is too much obscuring of this area by the wheel. I notice this even looking at the tachs. I have the chart plotters on top of the console--one in the center so Marie and I can both use it, the other right in front of my line of sight. The Radar is overhead, just above my line of sight. Don't have to take my eyes off of the water but a few seconds by glancing down or up to see the screen and controls--not having to look around the wheel etc.

I have avoided Ray Marine because of reputation in the past--but currently they have some excellent products--and even on THT, you will see the problems, and not the thousands of satisfied users. I have known of Furuno problems also--but generally less than most other brands.

I don't know what the package cost of Furuno is, and have seen some boat show deals which are good, but it is generally a bit more expensive than some of the others. I will be interested to see your set up. I came very close to buying a Glacier Bay 2690 with that same Furuno electronics .
 
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