PC-based Navigation/etc. vs. Dedicated Electronics?

M

Mike...

New member
Hello Everyone...

In another thread, I outlined my plan for electronics in my new boat. As Dr. Bob pointed out, my plan is expensive. But in that thread, I received multiple recommendations to use a laptop. I had been totally opposed to this, but now am pondering the idea.

So, I thought I'd start up a thread specifically about PC-based chart-plotting/radar/weather/depth sounding solutions.

First, let me say that I am a Nerd. I love computers; I work at one all day, every day (I am a programmer). And, I am very good at keeping computers running. Still, I know that computers can be temperamental, and at times, downright problematic. I wouldn't want to bet my life, or that of my family, on the dependability of a PC -- especially in a marine environment.

If I were to go for a PC-based solution, it would not be a laptop: no room in the helm, and setting it on the berth is out of the question.

However, I would be open to some ruggedized SFF (small form factor) PC and Monitor (preferably touchscreen) that could handle the rigors of the marine (fresh/salt) environment. So finding the right bulletproof hardware is one issue. Still, I'd probably want a backup hand-held unit available if the pc-based solution gets persnickety at just the wrong moment..

The bigger issue, though, is probably the hardware software and interface(s) necessary to display the data I want.
  • Highly accurate 2D/3D chart-plotting
  • HD 4KW Radar (overlay capable)
  • XM weather (overlay capable), with XM audio preferred
  • Highly accurate depth sounding (I am not the fishing type)
  • Wind speed/direction
  • DSC/AIS capable
  • NMEA 2000 compatibility preferred
  • Video inputs would be nice (for a couple of cameras to help with difficult docking situations)
Now Robert suggested Nobeltec's Admiral Max Pro software in the thread mentioned above. But that software uses C-Map charts, and I have been under the impression (perhaps incorrectly?) that these are not the best.

Regardless, it's not clear to me that this software will meet all my criteria above. I am going to call Nobletec and see what they have to say.

Any other thoughts on a good Marine software package? Or on this concept in general? What about that NMEQ 2000 compatibility?

---

Thanks...

mike
 
My suggestion...don't waste a ton of money on ruggedized hardware, until you know things will work functionally for you.

We've investigated ruggedized laptops for our field workers at my day job. By and large, they work better than their "normal" counterparts, but they are expensive, and very bulky. The former may not be an issue depending on your budget, but the latter could be problematic given the limited room at most C-Dory helms.

I'm of the opinion one can get fairly rugged PC hardware, that's probably acceptable for marine use in a C-Dory - without breaking the bank. With the bonus, that the prices are dropping like a rock.

I just purchased a fun little nerd toy yesterday, that should arrive in a week or so - a Dell Mini 9. There's even a relatively new forum that has popped up, where nerds are doing some pretty cool things with them...including, embedding a GPS receiver. Check out MyDellMini.com.

While my use for it will primarily be a tiny travel computer, that can do most of what I'll need while on the road, I've thought about using it in the boat as well. Given that it uses an SSD drive, it's entirely solid-state, and should put up with the bumps and jolts of the boat better than other portable devices with spinning hard drives. And unlike the other small form factor netbooks out there (eeePC and others), it's very nerd-friendly - everything you might wish to upgrade, is easily accessible under one panel on the bottom of the unit. Add to that, it runs both XP and Linux - Dell even sells it preloaded with a custom Ubuntu distribution. Laptop compatibility with Linux is always hit/miss. And if one doesn't mind invoking the wrath of Apple, many folks are running hacked versions of OS X quite successfully on them, providing a far cheaper portable that performs well, than anything sold by Steve and Co. Here's a link if that interests anyone...

Making the decision easy, was a deal that's going on now, that is pretty tough to pass up. There are a bunch of these Mini 9's currently listed in Dell's Outlet store - I've had good luck buying these factory refrub's in the past, they've been virtually indistinguishable from new. Not only do they have many listed right now that have all the options at good prices, but I found a coupon code online that gets you an additional 20% off. I've got one with a 16GB SSD, 1GB RAM, and the web cam arriving for a little over $300 shipped, including tax.

Anyone interested, here's a link to the outlet store listing Mini 9's. And the coupon code that worked for me yesterday, giving another 20% off:

8Q5WJ1P9PRKQ9X - supposedly expires on 12/23.

Wish I could give a more informed opinion on the Mini 9 based on hands-on use, but at the price I got it for, it was almost an impulse buy.
 
I've built some PC's in the past, this sounds like a never ending project. Get a integrated system from Garmin or Raymarine or somebody. These guys have lots of experience in the coordination of peripheral devices. Being a programmer, your hourly billing rate must be at least $90/hr to $300 hour (depending). Factor in the time to build out a ruggedized solution, and the integrated systems price tag wont seem that high.
 
My thought is -- if you need to have ruggedized hardware -- then go with the intergrated systems from Garmin or Raymarine.

We have all the equipment (Nobeltec, laptop, etc) that I outlined in the other thread and love the flexibility that we have with it. I have used a laptop to navigate for the last 10 years and would never buy a "standalone" chartplotter (that is just the way I'm wired).

Regarding C-Map -- we have used C-Map charts since 2003 and have been hugely impressed (outside of the cost). They are awesome charts (check out the new C-Map Max Pro). Now with our Nobeltec Max Pro software -- I decided not to spend the money on the C-Map charts (even though the geek in me wanted to), but instead I went with the Raster add-on that allows you to use the free Raster charts available.

I also think the Dell Mini 9 are the way to go. All solid-state like Da Nag mentioned and pretty darn cheap. I priced every thing out when I put together the electronics for our 2008 C-Dory 22 and it was cheaper to go with the Nobeltec Radar and buy two (2) Dell Mini 9 -- one for a quick swap backup if needed.

We put the laptop in the v-berth and have a Acer 16" widescreen on the dash -- check out our pictures. The line of sight is still very good and I was able to "screw" mount the monitor right into the dash making a nice clean install. If I find a better screen (which I will) -- I spend a few hundred dollars and switch it out. Better than buying the next sized screen in a chartplotter/radar/etc.

I'm the opposite of most folks that would never ever consider a laptop to run the boats navigational systems -- I would never ever consider spending the money on a "packaged solution".

Best of luck..
 
I'm an advocate of having both.....a primary chartplotter like a Garmin and a laptop as a backup. As for putting it in the berth, I secure it with a couple of pillows or a bungie cord. On my other boat, the trawler, it sits securely on a shelf. When I'm on a Coast Guard Aux. patrol, I secure the laptop near the passenger seat so the Coxswain can see our position at a glance. Very useful for the 30 min. radio check-ins.

Here's something I didn't elaborate on. I use a bulletproof, used Thinkpad that I bought for $250. The Nobeltec program is 5 years old and I bought it off E-bay for $50. (I have the name of the dealer if you want it). The charts are free and outstanding, via NOAA's site.

Now....what would I do in your situation. Definitely I'd use a laptop with internet connection as a backup plotter. I'd probably keep the Raymarine and buy a new, portable Garmin that's coming out. One that works like a touch screen Nuvi but has navigational charts in it. This would be useful from car to car, boat to boat. In essence, you'd have 3 plotters available to you.

-Greg
 
Last summer, I went the PC route but went a little higher end on the hardware side by getting a Dell Latitude XT tablet PC. It folds down flat in the tablet mode and fits well at the helm in a RAM mount even with a 12 inch display. I feed it with GPS data from my original Lowrance which I now use in the sonar mode only. I find the touch screen not really that useful, even using the pen that comes with the computer. What I found that works best is a Logitech USB trackball with scroll wheel. I have it velcroed to the helm next to the computer and it is usable in almost any sea condition. For software I am running Coastal Explorer with NOAA vector and raster charts. With the computer and Coastal Explores software I can easily do things that were a royal pain on the Lowrance. Coastal Explorer doesn't have a radar available yet, but I am not hardover on the radar overlay as I have a separate radar display for my Furuno. The radar and Lowrance displays are over head on the bottom of the electronics shelf. The most difficult part of the installation was getting all the displays in a location where they didn't interfere with line of sight on a CD-22 and still were usable.

The only downside I see on the PC route is power consumption. I measured on my multimeter almost 3 amps at 12VDC. It's not something that you want to run overnight as an anchor alarm. The Lowrance can do that for a lot less power.

The bottom line, I wouldn't go back to just using the Lowrance. If I was starting new, I would go the PC route and buy a lower end sounder/plotter to provide the fish finding/sonar and GPS data to the PC. You then have a ready back up. You should also have a separate GPS puck or hand held GPS with USB interface in the event the primary GPS sensor decides to go south.
 
I bought one of THESE . I like it because it uses windows xp instead of VISTA. I run The Capn program and Map Source at the same time. It works pretty wel so far. The screen could be a little brighter but I like the size. It will fit on the CD22 dash.
 
I bought a Sony VAIO PCG-V505EXP Notebook with 512M RAM and an ATI Mobility Radeon graphics card in 2004, and used Fugawi Chartplotting software on it for 7500 miles around the Great Loop, and it worked great. Two years ago I had to replace the hard drive, but otherwise it's still working fine, and I still use it for navigation. I built a platform for it that was strapped to the dinette table. I shut it down in heavy weather, but I also had a Garmin 2006 chartplotter, and whenever I had long open-water cruises I'd record the route in it before the trip. I also carried a small notebook computer in a watertight case as backup, and a small handheld Geko 101, and though I had all my charts on the computer, I still had paper charts, rarely used, also as backup. Given these precautions, I see no problem at all using a laptop for chart plotting.

In addition to always knowing exactly where you are, there's also the advantage that you can record waypoints for lock, marinas, anchorages, and fuel stops, with phone numbers that you can view with the click of a mouse button.

There are several chartplotting programs, though in my opinion Fugawi is the best. It can read ENC charts downloaded from the Web, and you can also calibrate your own chart images in Fugawi. I'm working on chartplotting software that's completely free, and I use it for my own navigation, though it's still buggy enough, I don't recommend it for anyone else. You can download it at this URL:
http://localhost/~smitty/links/smittypa ... /index.htm
If you're a programmer and know perl and use Linux, you might find it fun to work with as a secondary navigation tool.

Anyway, I think a laptop is a great way to navigate.
 
We use an inexpensive Toshiba laptop, a bluetooth gps reciever and Tiki Navigator. Tiki is a great navigation program, uses free bsb charts from NOAA, and gives you everything you want except radar overlay and XM.
Eric
 
Ok, so I have spent the better part of the day looking at putting together a pc-based solution... and it just might be doable. And, it may even be less expensive than the dedicated stuff I was dreaming/drooling about.

But, I still have no interest in using a laptop. I mean no offense to those that do; it's just not for me. :)

Though there were other great suggestions here, the Nobeltec Admiral Max Pro software Robert mentioned looks to be the most advanced out there, unless I missed something. Unfortunately, I can't tell how NMEA2000 friendly it may or may not be.

It looks like I would be stuck with their radar, of which I know nothing about. But as Dr. Bob pointed out, radar could be a standalone device, and I could learn to overlay it in my head. :?

Would one of you TomCat owners please measure how wide and deep the space is atop the helm? I know it's an odd shape, but I am trying to get a feel for how large a monitor (or monitors) can be installed in there, perhaps on a pole mount.

Hey Robert, how much do you use the keyboard with the Admiral Max Pro software? I don't know where I would put the thing....

Thanks to all. :)

---

mike
 
Wannaboat,
An excellent reference to both help you search software, laptop types, requirements and where to get free chart down loads etc. it is all covered in an excellent book"Get on Board with E-Charting" chapter four rates all of the current software applications available. It shows cost pros and cons of each. Cost is around 35 dollars. Good Luck!
D.D.
 
Mike,

You may have to consider changing your screen name... Gottaboat? :mrgreen:

Many of us have gone through the stages of wonder, discovery, research, fine-tuning, and got-it with these great boats... few have gone through them as fast as you. :D Know that whatever decisions you make, you'll have a great boat to try 'em out on.

Happy Holidays,
Jim B.
 
Great discussion. I also have a mini--which I am currently using, since I am traveling. I already have all of the NOAA charts on the hard drive--(also Street maps)--and it will be my primary back up computer on the boat.

Space is an issue, even on the Tom Cat. The larger the computer, the more difficult. Any laptop is better than a fixed computer on a small boat. Even the cheap laptops are more "ruggatized" and more resistant to the salt air than the tower based systems. I have friends who have larger computers which have come to grief in the salt environment.

Again--think about how you use navigation instruments on the fly--you don't want to take hands off the helm/throttles, unless necessary. (a good driver will work both helm and throttle in rougher conditions--as well as trim).

Second eyes on the water ahead--as well as situational awareness of all that is happening around you--includes radio, radar, AIS?--as well as chart plotter. This is all a lot to do--and you want the navigational system to be as simple as possiable.

We had a laptop on one boat, and after 4 years and over 35,000 miles at sea this cheap laptop was still working well. We ran it frequently,keep it warm and dry. If you are going to expose the computer to the elements--then ruggitized will be essential...but not for "normal" use.
 
wannaboat":3pvoznsk said:
Hey Robert, how much do you use the keyboard with the Admiral Max Pro software? I don't know where I would put the thing....
Click to expand...

I don't use the keyboard that much, but I do use the mouse from time to time. We went with the Logitech diNovo Mini bluetooth keyboard/touchpad. I just mounted the Mini next to the helm seat and just flip it open when I need the keyboard or the touchpad. It is wireless with the bluetooth -- so no wires, etc.

Here is a link for the Logitech diNovo Mini

http://www.google.com/products/catalog? ... ps-sellers
 
Here are 2 ea free comments.

First, the future of navigational displays lies in PC based navigation. When Raymarine gets $2800 (and that's just the display) for a 12" display, which will be soon outmoded by their newest creation, a $700 Toshiba (Frys ad,) look good, with $400 for the basic software. Over the last 10 years, we've used Toshibas in the South Pacific, Alaska, and in the toughest environment of all: the East Coast. No problems, except the computer got outmoded. If you want to back it up, get a $400 SS unit. Remember the PC goes into an enclosed cabin, and doesn't get salt spray, nor large shock loadings.

As for interfacing, clearly all new computers interface with USB or firewire. You have to buy interfacing units and they abound, see NMEA Gateways for a plethora of interfaces. And more and more devices (radar, GPS,) will come out with direct interfaces. It's a natural market.

A PC also gives you flexibility for chart sources. You can use C-Map with their reader, free raster and vector charts for the US, and whatever you can get for Canada. With a dedicated chart display, you use what they sell. And the PC give you internet access, though not in the wild.

Using it in the boat just require mounting, and there have been a plethora of advice on that. The 9" PCs are ideal for dash mounting, and RAM mounts for anything else.

Glad to see mike/wannaboat is going to go PC based. Be delighted to see how his instrumentation turns out. Certainly it'll beat Journey On's PC on the table routine, but then I had to start with a separate radar, etc.

Boris
 
Here's my $0.02 FWIW:

If you are considering a PC based solution for an integrated electronic helm station, consider also your skills as a hardware/software systems integrator. You'll be on your own when it comes to installation and troubleshooting, as I doubt any boat dealer's mechanic or rigger will be able to help you. I have extensive software experience from a previous life but I know my limitations when it comes to hardware therefore I was happy to pay the premium for the Raymarine system.

Warren
 
consider also your skills as a hardware/software systems integrator
Click to expand...

I certainly agree with Doryman, you have to have the desire to put everything together. I love working on boats and I also love to work with "Open Source" computer/software solutions. My setup was not complicated, but there were a few times that I was trying to figure out how I got the wiring wrong, etc. My paid helper is always GOOGLE -- he/she always seems to have the answer. Once it is set -- you are good to go.

I don't really want to "afford" paying someone to help me, so doing it myself allows me to fix it later.

Kindof like the saying -- if you don't like fixing boats, don't buy one.

Same thing with computers -- if you don't like fixing computers, don't use one.

Enjoy your day.
 
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