Plane with a Brain
- Thread starter Barry Rietz
- Start date
starcrafttom
Active member
all the boeing plane crashes because of the software were caused by pilots. or more to the point lack of real pilots.
I followed this whole shit show for sometime and the short of it is that the people flying the planes in many foreign countries are not really pilots. They are system operators. They want to operate the system even if the system fails. A pilots wanst to fly the plane and every time the "system " fails the real pilots shuts the crap off and flies the plane. Many of these problems happened on us planes but the us planes did not crash., why? because the western military dominated pilot training values flying the plane by hand. Not letting the system take over. In other countries that do not have the same military dominated history of flying and virtually no private flying community. Pilots are being trained to be system managers first and pilots second. The use of simulator only flight instruction is even worse but more common over seas . I learned in my process to understand what happened and why that many foreign airline pilots never fly a real plane until they are flying with the airlines. No shit. Not even a 152 ( single engine trainer)
Blaming the programing is accurate but lazy. Its what the pilot does that matters after the program goes south. In the case of the 2 aircraft in africa it was to "control alt delete " and try again. Good pilots , well trained pilots turned that shit off and flew the plane.
I followed this whole shit show for sometime and the short of it is that the people flying the planes in many foreign countries are not really pilots. They are system operators. They want to operate the system even if the system fails. A pilots wanst to fly the plane and every time the "system " fails the real pilots shuts the crap off and flies the plane. Many of these problems happened on us planes but the us planes did not crash., why? because the western military dominated pilot training values flying the plane by hand. Not letting the system take over. In other countries that do not have the same military dominated history of flying and virtually no private flying community. Pilots are being trained to be system managers first and pilots second. The use of simulator only flight instruction is even worse but more common over seas . I learned in my process to understand what happened and why that many foreign airline pilots never fly a real plane until they are flying with the airlines. No shit. Not even a 152 ( single engine trainer)
Blaming the programing is accurate but lazy. Its what the pilot does that matters after the program goes south. In the case of the 2 aircraft in africa it was to "control alt delete " and try again. Good pilots , well trained pilots turned that shit off and flew the plane.
Another problem is with the for profit training industry. Particularly in foreign countries, anyone with enough money can become a pilot. It is a prestige job.
The company that takes JoeStudentPilot's money is going to try very hard to pass him because it's bad for business if the training company gets a reputation for being tough on the students and has a high failure rate. There is also the issue of the student buying a product (e.g. a type rating). He paid his money (usually a lot of it), shouldn't he get what he purchased? If he washes out won't he try to get his money back?
Even in the US there was a problem a number of years ago where the instructor also did the checking. After being with the trainees for many days or weeks doing the training, the instructor could loose objectivity and go easier on the student during the checks they he should have because by now they were friends. The US FAA had to change the rules so the trainer could not be the checker.
The company that takes JoeStudentPilot's money is going to try very hard to pass him because it's bad for business if the training company gets a reputation for being tough on the students and has a high failure rate. There is also the issue of the student buying a product (e.g. a type rating). He paid his money (usually a lot of it), shouldn't he get what he purchased? If he washes out won't he try to get his money back?
Even in the US there was a problem a number of years ago where the instructor also did the checking. After being with the trainees for many days or weeks doing the training, the instructor could loose objectivity and go easier on the student during the checks they he should have because by now they were friends. The US FAA had to change the rules so the trainer could not be the checker.
gulfcoast john
New member
Tom,
Although I essentially agree with you, there are some nuances and realities to consider here.
I retired from the USAF as a Senior Flight Surgeon/FP doc after 21 years. US military pilots (including our ex USCG friend Colby) are absolutely the best trained and most experienced in the world. There is no arguing that well documented fact.
As the US military contracted again and again, the available supply of ex-US military flyers under age 60 with 3,000-4,000 hands-on flying hours shriveled to almost nothing. The European/Airbus solution was to make the plane so automated that it basically didn’t need pilots. (The computer flew one AirBus into the sea due to iced pitot tubes.)
The US/Boeing solution was to basically give the pilots ultimate control over all the computer’s decisions.
The World was heading towards the computers drive the plane, not lowest-bid pilots.
But even Boeing had to consider that some pilots in Ethiopia who were remarkably inexperienced (compared to the pilots Delta could hire in the US) would not crash a plane due to poor flying skills while Airbus boasted it was almost impossible with their jets. So Boeing put MCAS in.
I find it fascinating that Boeing built the same plane as a USAF tanker, but the USAF demanded (and got) Boeing to make MCAS a one-time only warning that was easily overridden by USAF pilots and could not take over total control.
The realities of world airlines are now such that even Cathay Pacific (our favorite) can not get retired 40 year old US military pilots at any price, because there are so few (and they fly for US airlines if they can).
Again, I essentially agree with your contentions, but I think the overall situation is more complicated and deserves more in-depth exploring. Thanks for the post and to get us all thinking about it.
PS I find it sad that Sully Sullingberger who landed a disabled jet in the river was forced to retire at age 60 by FAA rules. 60 for some folks is 80 for others but 40 for some. I would like for him to be my pilot!
Cheers!
John
Although I essentially agree with you, there are some nuances and realities to consider here.
I retired from the USAF as a Senior Flight Surgeon/FP doc after 21 years. US military pilots (including our ex USCG friend Colby) are absolutely the best trained and most experienced in the world. There is no arguing that well documented fact.
As the US military contracted again and again, the available supply of ex-US military flyers under age 60 with 3,000-4,000 hands-on flying hours shriveled to almost nothing. The European/Airbus solution was to make the plane so automated that it basically didn’t need pilots. (The computer flew one AirBus into the sea due to iced pitot tubes.)
The US/Boeing solution was to basically give the pilots ultimate control over all the computer’s decisions.
The World was heading towards the computers drive the plane, not lowest-bid pilots.
But even Boeing had to consider that some pilots in Ethiopia who were remarkably inexperienced (compared to the pilots Delta could hire in the US) would not crash a plane due to poor flying skills while Airbus boasted it was almost impossible with their jets. So Boeing put MCAS in.
I find it fascinating that Boeing built the same plane as a USAF tanker, but the USAF demanded (and got) Boeing to make MCAS a one-time only warning that was easily overridden by USAF pilots and could not take over total control.
The realities of world airlines are now such that even Cathay Pacific (our favorite) can not get retired 40 year old US military pilots at any price, because there are so few (and they fly for US airlines if they can).
Again, I essentially agree with your contentions, but I think the overall situation is more complicated and deserves more in-depth exploring. Thanks for the post and to get us all thinking about it.
PS I find it sad that Sully Sullingberger who landed a disabled jet in the river was forced to retire at age 60 by FAA rules. 60 for some folks is 80 for others but 40 for some. I would like for him to be my pilot!
Cheers!
John
gulfcoast john":1f0n16j9 said:
If you're referring to AF447, if the pilots had sat on their hands for less than 1 minute, everything would have worked out fine and the passengers wouldn't even have noticed anything happened.
That plane crashed because one of the pilots held the plane in a stall pretty much all the way to the ground.
starcrafttom
Active member
John, you are right but so am I. Yes its a problem that other countries do not have a history of aviation and are trying to fast track pilots/ system operators. The shortage of qualified military pilots is real but I would think with the last 20 years of war not as bad as it once was. Could be wrong. So what we have is two realities. Not enough old pilots ( even as trainers) and not enough young pilots. So what do you do. Well several things. Air lines need to bite the bullet and require more basic training. I am the only one in my family without a pilot's license. It is not hard to train pilots from scratch. We do that here. You have to get your private pilot's license first . Small manual controlled plane. That is where you learn how to fly and handle a plane. Then everything builds on that. I know a lot of pilots because of my folks. Most , my folks included, are not vets. and many learned to fly later in life. It does not take 20 years to learn to fly a airliner but you do first have to learn to fly a 2 seat manual control plane. That is what many overseas carriers need to do. make it a requirement. Its like riding motor bikes. The best riders I know all started on bmx or small dirt bike. I started on street bikes later in life and will never be as good. I am good but not that good. The whole thing regardless of plane and or system design gets back to training a basics. The pilots that crashed those planes were Trained to turn the system back on over and over again. That is what killed them. They were taught that way of thinking. Having been a Marine and a weapons trainer ( basic marksmanship) , having been a truck driving instructor for one place I worked ( they were desperate) I can tell you with out fail you will react the way you were trained whether you like it or no, whether in makes since or not. If you were trained to do it you will. So end of day they need better basic training.