Quality Question

J

james

New member
This may be a topic that has been addressed before , if so, please direct me to the proper link.

This is something I have been wondering about since I first seen my boat.

Why is it that in most respects the C-DORY brand of boats seem to be very well constructed. BUT they cannot put backing plates on their deck hardware. they put these little puny washers to back up all the cleats. A REAL NO NO.

I cannot help but wonder how much more it would cost them to PROPERLY install these things. how much for a piece of wood to make it RIGHT? which I will NOW do anyway.

Just wondering

James
 
I have heard that at the factory they pick the whole boat up in the air from just three cleats; seems good enough for me.
Al
 
James,

I don't think there have been any reports of cleats pulling out of the deck, but if a backup block would ease your mind, go for it!

It wouldn't hurt to seal the inside of the bolt holes either.
 
I am satisfied with the backing effort but know that there are, at times, quite a strain on those cleats. Especially if you don't use snubbers. I am not worried about anything pulling through, but do worry once in awhile about getting gel coat crazing when waves wash up against a dock where I am tied. But I think they are okay, overall.
 
Hi Folks,

I believe that the reason for backing plates goes to when boats were made with wood. What you have in a C-Dory is two coats of fiberglass with wood in between. If no water get into it, it is as strong as a cleat with backing plates. Maybe even stronger.

When I made my C-dory into a USCGAux OPFAC, I had to put backing plates on all cleats. When I installed my windless, I had a backing plate made for it. It might be over doing it.

Along with your thread, when I had a new engine put on my boat, I added a second battery. With that went a new battery switch. When I checked out the boat after I picked it up, I discovered that they had added the new switch with screws with exposed ends and did not bolt it on. (The replaced switch was bolted on.) I went through the roof, and they didn't understand why I was mad. I told them that a man is judged by the quality of his work. Either they didn't know better, of they didn't care. I haven't gone back since, and found a better mechanic to service my engine.

I guess it is all in the point of view.

Fred

PS. James, do you know what a wild girl's last supper is?
 
This may rub some of you wrong, but it's all true and hard to ignore! It disturbs me when I see the almost cult like worship of these (Cdory) boats. If you believe everything you read you would conclude that they are the last word in quality etc. I studied this site and the other defunct one at length prior to purchasing Huda Thunkit (25ft Cruiser) last September. I trusted the opinions of folks who had gone before me and was confident of my decision at purchase time. Here comes the reality part. My boat had a very long list of problems to include trim tabs not working and hooked up backwards, gas gauge not working, Bomar hatch leaking profusely, areas under the rub rail screws leaking a lot, the cut out for the shower is so large that nothing supports the floor of the shower/ head and when you stand in there the floor sags exposing a 1/4 inch gap in the caulked area, Raw water wash down pump was inoperative, main water pump was burst from freezing, water heater was burst from freezing, no shut off valve was installed between the holding tank and the macerator pump and a host of other items less significant. My dealer has been great to work with and we are marching through these problems and getting them taken care off post haste. Overall I like the boat real well, will I ever buy another one, let me get over spending over $80,000 for this many problems before I answer that. Mike on Huda Thunkit.
 
This may rub some of you wrong, but it's all true and hard to ignore! It disturbs me when I see the almost cult like worship of these (Cdory) boats. If you believe everything you read you would conclude that they are the last word in quality etc.
Click to expand...

Naw Mike, it doesn't rub me wrong. It should not disturb you to see how highly folks think of the boat, however. They, as did you, paid a hefty sum for the object of their "worship", and being of sufficient wherewithal to pay for it they also possess the ability to speak honestly about it. Of course there are quality slip-ups. But if one does read everything here, he would see the relatively small percentage and he would also see the lengths the company and dealers will go to in correcting them. I can assure you this: Caty Mae and Steve might not have ended up with a "perfect" product from C-Dory, but they certainly subscribe to the "last word in quality" conclusion even though it took some time and frustration to get there.

The only part of your statement that may be considered disturbing at first glance is the implication that the hundreds of owners in this group are either blindly or dishonestly touting a product that is not what they would have others believe. That isn't the case at all. Not only do we share the faults we may find in the product, we do so with a little more contempt for the fool at the factory who let it slip by.
 
Sea Angel here;
Let me ditto Mike's points and add my 2cents worth.

I had some fine points also with delivery to my home in Virginia Beach. The dealer, Cutter Marine, was right on top of every issue as was the factory gang.

As an example- After a heavy seas ride up and down the Ches. Bay in 4-6' waves, some crazy stuff happened; like the screens popping out of their tracks and hitting each of us when the hull flexed in the swells and chop. The first thing Brett said when I called and asked about this was, 'let me send you some new screens'.

I can't praise the CD family enough for their interest and FOLLOWUP to any issues brought to their attention. I deal with outside service venders everyday at the TV station and wish the electronics broadcast industry would work from CD's Dealer and Factory Playbook. They are first class!

No, I'm not paid to say this. I just believe in the product and how it takes care of me and my family when we're out on the Ches. Bay; etc.. Yes I am also in the USCGAUX and was a COXSWAIN, but due to medical items I am not current.
 
Great feed back TyBoo, I guess I am just a little nieve but having been a machinist for over 30 years I do recognize craftsmanship and I guess I expected more. After all, had I bought a pair of Harleys or a new Mercedes I would not of had nearly as many issues with my new toys. Since boat builders were one of our first industries I assumed they would be pretty far along by now and that these gross QC oversites would not exist. I still don't have an owners manual for the thing either. Yes it seems like a good boat from a design stand point, yes I am sure we will enjoy it quite a bit after this initiation into boating is behind us and yes I am adaptable enough to work through these issues. I have a great working relationship with our dealer etc, but I did want to dispell the illusion that you can't go wrong with a C dory. After all, for a while I was wondering if the folks posting here were making a statement or asking a question when discussing the quality of these boats. For me it's a matter of "time will tell." Mike on Huda Thunkit
 
I too, grit my teeth when someone gets a lemon or has quality issues, but, if this was simply a rah, rah, factory site, I wouldn't know about the problems, or how they were taken care of (and all are taken care of thusfar).

Personally, I won't be part of a rah, rah, factory site. If there's something wrong with the product, I want it hashed out and corrected.

This is not a shot at anyone, but after years of complex equipment in boats and airplanes, I specifically got a 22 for SIMPLICITY -- pumps, electro-servers, etc., were exactly the maintenance pains I didn't want to have anymore. A moments inattention (and sometimes even if you are servicing them) and all that stuff is toast. The (22 and below) C-Dorys were designed as simple unfinished boats you modify to your needs (I'm talking to new eyes out there), and even the larger boats don't have a liner. The C-Dory is not a Hatteras, not a Bertram, not a finished interior hull-liner boat like a Whaler -- but it is the simplest full cabin type boat that will protect, be made livable for extended cruise, and bring you back. In its simplest form (the boat itself without a mile long options list) it is a minimalist's boat. It was intended that way, so you can make what you want of it -- that's why they are so great. Red Fox has his ideal boat in Alaska, Byrdman has his in Alabama, Bill & EL have theirs all over, -- and I have my dream in Florida (actually it boats in Fla. very little) and the interiors by all very different to suit our needs. If you're looking for the finished type boat -- look elsewhere.

I hope after writing the above, no one buys a C-Dory expecting a Hinckley. It won't happen.
 
Hi Folks,

Flagold is right on it. The reason we get great gas milage, is that we have a stripped down boat with out the extras. I remember my wife commenting on a "pretty" SeaRay. I tried to explain that it came with a big cost. Cost to purchase. Cost to run. Winter storage costs etc.

A boat is a compromise. We opt for operational efficiency, not creature comforts. Where else can you get a trailerable boat that can be pulled with a regular SUV (ie: Explorer class compared with an Excursion class.) liveaboard with all that is needed. Just look at what is happening in Alaska as we speak. Three 22' C-Dory's are cruising the wilderness of Alaska. By their writings and pictures, they seem to be comfortable.

Any new boat, auto etc needs a certain time to break it in. That is when we find the things that need to be fixed. From what I have seen, both the factory and the dealers will fix it for you, and fix it right.

After I "passed over" my 1983 22' C-dory, I had a boat that was comfortable. No it did not have a forward facing seat, a Wallas Stove, a private head etc. What it does have is an efficient galley, a large entrance to the forward bunk. (try 2/3rds of the beam.) A 6' by 6' cockpit with a stern bench for sitting and sleeping, covered with a portable canvas top and window sides, A lot of storage area. etc.

A lot of this was put in by me, with my ability, or my money.

Yes, I have to check the screws that attach the aft cabin wall to the boat, but this boat gives me great joy. Unfortunally, at this time I do not have the time to use it as much as I would like to, but I am working on that.

Also it is paid for. No notes, no payments.


Thank you for listening.

Fred
 
Why do I get the feeling that my points were missed here guys? I did not go into this boat venture expecting a Sea-Ray, Hinkley, Whaler etc. But I would think that if you are going to put some basic ammenitys into my boat that you at least check their operational abilitys! Yes the factory & local dealer will correct problems but if someone would have even tried the trim tabs, fuel gauge, etc they would have noticed their lack of function. If someone would have looked in the bilge they would have noticed the lack of valve on the macerator, If a little support had been provided under the shower floor it would have not needed repair. If you establish some Quality assurance checks on the front end you eliminate the black eyes on the tail end! Yes it is a comfortable boat and yes it will undergo MANY home added modifications (I have a full machine shop IN MY YARD). I appreciate the fact that these are minimalist boats with few and simple systems, but my intention's here are to help the next guy who may be going in as green or greener than myself! I have the afore mentioned advantage of my own machine shop that very few other folks would have. They have to rely on someone else for everything. Mike on Huda Thunkit
 
Alasgun (Mike) – I assume your boat was new when you purchased it but there seems to be something strange about it. You bought your boat in September 05 and the 05’s had been out for more than a year by then and the 06’s had been out for several months. The 04’s had not been made for more than a year when you purchased your boat. Once the factory starts a new model year they quit making the previous year. Is it possible the boat was used?

Some of the items you mentioned are items C-Dory should have caught and taken care of before leaving the factory. (areas under the rub rail screws leaking a lot, the cut out for the shower)

Some are from their suppliers (Bomar hatch leaking profusely) but none the less C-Dory is still responsible for.

I believe some of the items may be dealer add on items that C-Dory does not have control of.

Some of the items are operator errors and neither the dealer or factory have control of. (main water pump was burst from freezing, water heater was burst from freezing)

As you are finding out, nothing is as great as some people claim and there are other people that have had problems with their boats. Those that I know of, have had the problems taken care of when they spend time with their dealer and/or factory working together to solve them.

The C-Dory is not a cookie cutter boat, built in a mass produced factory. Each is hand built so there is always the human component of error in the building of the boats. There are more benefits to this type of construction than there are detriments. Sometimes a boat may seem to have more problems than others but you have the making of a great boat and sounds like you have the ability to do it.

It is people like you that help the quality control of boats like the C-Dory and the system seems to be working pretty good.

Good luck with your boat.
 
One area where I believe the factory could use some improvement is in the electical wiring aspects. My sense is that has been aestetically pleasing - until one pulls the panel... None of the boats I have seen have been delivered from the factory with wiring that was easy for a guy to follow or that was standardized much. While I realize that boats get delivered with many different options and that electrical hookups are one of the variable aspects of the boat, I still think that the factory could pay more design attention to the wiring and could create a number of standardized wiring harnesses. I think this would help with some of the QC issues Mike (Alasgun) describes.


Also, there are some silly things that are recurring issues that I think the factory could do more to correct in design. The rub-rail screws leaking is a fairly common one. Ditto for the table latch and the center window opening device. To their credit, the factory does make changes based on feedback from this site - the reversible seat, the change in blige location, the wider steps in the cockpit etc. Many of these changes have originated here. Also, like others, I agree that the factory is incredibly responsive and helpful now. However, when I first boat my boat, I didn't feel that way - I think this was during the time the factory was transitioning in ownership and things were a bit out of whack at the factory then.

I also agree that the water pump and water heater bursting from freezing is owner/operator error and not the factory's responsibility! Anything (RV, home etc) that has plumbing will have problems if allowed to freeze.

Finally, while things are not perfect with these boats - I think we're all in better shape than your average Bayliner owner. The number of issues upon receipt and the response to them is better than for many other boats.
 
The C-Dory anyone gets from the factory is not going to be perfect. They're made by human beings and human beings make errors. The C-Dory Marine Group backs their product. Mike says they're getting all the fixes done. I have yet to hear of ANY other boat manufacturer, other than C-Dory actually replacing a boat because they were unable to fix a defect. Mike, I don't know if you watched us through our dilemma or not -- yes, it was very frustrating for us, but it had to be JUST as frustrating for the C-Dory group, and they stepped up when they realized the boat couldn't be repaired to stop the leaking. Scott and Bret flew into Portland and drove over an hour to come to our home and see the boat was still leaking on December 23, 2005 (Friday night before Christmas weekend) and to arrange a fix for the issue. THAT is quality...first class operation, good customer service.

I totally agree they are watching this website and are making improvements when we ask for them. That's where the full glass door, the molded cockpit floor, the "cutting corners table edge" (to be able to clean crumbs off the table and doesn't please everyone as you also catch clothes on the rough edges of the molding that's been mitered) and lots more changes have come from. I also agree the wiring business leaves a lot to be desired -- if you look at 16 boats, they'll probably all be wired differently. The response I got from them about the diagram in the owner manual - "That's outdated and just needs to be changed."

They can please many, but NOBODY can please EVERYONE.

I'm sure the dealer and factory will make it right for you -- yes, it can be frustrating -- work with them and realize sh** happens -- enjoy your boat -- best one you'll ever have :thup
 
It disturbs me when I see the almost cult like worship of these (Cdory) boats. If you believe everything you read you would conclude that they are the last word in quality etc.
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I say fire away. Sunshine is the best disinfectant! I love Adeline and she'll be my last boat but...When I got her home I examined her and found numerous "voids" in the gelcoat on the chines and keel. I finally deduced that they hadn't uniformly applied mold release agent during layup and some of my gelcoat cracked off and stayed in the mold. My attorney examined their warranty and stated that it was so full of holes that if the boat sank upon launching that they couldn't be held liable. That's right, there was no guarantee that it would even float. I contacted C-Dory(I sent pictures) and was told they'd get to it, maybe, in their off-season, 7 or 8 months away. I had it repaired at my expense. $1500.00. Also, my fuel-selector valve was mis-plumbed so that I could only use one tank. That was a pleasent surprise on the Mighty Columbia River when I needed to switch tanks. Finally, screwing into the deck of a non self-bailing boat (fuel tanks etc.) is just asking for trouble. Stupid! I had about thirty screws (fuel tank brackets and bilge pump/cover) and half were wet. After just 3 months. There's even more grief but happily it's long behind me now. I can still painfully recall the dark days of uncertainty. Had I just blown my "new boat budget" on a loser? Thankfully all problems were resolved (at my expense) and the good times rolled on. Maybe that's why this is my last boat. I could never go through that again. In my opinion, C-dorys(at least mine) were designed by geniuses and built by idiots.
 
Here's my take on this quality situation... and I am about to take delivery on our boat within the month, so this opinion may change! The factory folks have been very helpful through the discovery, ordering, and scheduling phases of this purchase. It is a mechanical product, and as such, it is likely that there will be some issues that will need to be addressed. To their credit, the factory folks have assured me that they will address any issues right away (since we are traveling over 2000 miles to pick up the boat). I have bought other new boats... they were not inexpensive... nor perfect when I took delivery. We have purchased several motorcoaches (costing a lot more than the CD-25), and one of them went back to the factory TWICE. To that manufacturer's credit, they sent a driver out both times to pick up and deliver the coach to/from our home. It was far from perfect, but they stood behind their product... and when it came time for us to purchase another coach, it was from that same manufacturer because they took care of us.

The testimony of folks here who have owned more than one C-Dory says a lot about the factory's committment to taking care of their owners. The dealer should be playing a major role in this whole process as well. Since the factory is also our dealer, I'll let y'all know how this process goes... I am optimistic. :thup

Best wishes,
Jim B. (as of 9:30 this evening, home in the Tropical Tip of Texas :D )
 
First of all thanks for all the replys!

As far as my original question regarding backing plates, let's be clear, there is ONE RIGHT way to install deck hardware such as cleats, windless ect.
That is with a proper backing plate!
Seems a simple thing the factory could/should do.

On a side note I think this type of discussion is healthy, as I see the factory follows this board to some extent, maybe we can help them in their quest for the ultimate boat!


James
 
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