Ranger moving strong into the outboard market
- Thread starter BillE
- Start date
RobLL":3gnwy1l5 said:
I spent quite a bit of time with a couple of the guys from NMI at that SBS (2016), and they came right out and said that there just wasn't enough profit in the CD 22 to make a living on them. Seems funny, no time spent on a fancy headliner, hiding wire bundles, or tons of "fine finishing" on the "all purpose, KISS boat", but they couldn't do that and turn a decent profit. And as we were talking I was standing between the 22 Cruiser and a Sea Sport with LED headlights, lots of finishing touches and double the price tag.
I guess maybe we should just be thankful they are still making C-Dorys, and they seem to be doing a nice job of it now. Maybe something happened and they are beginning to see the light.
Harvey
SleepyC:moon
Yes - but value after 10 years brings C-Brats in while glitzy more, modern styling and features brings in the rest of the marketplace. E.g. I think it's a smaller fraction of the population that worries about long term resale value than that responds to emotional attachment at purchase time.ken35216":162xvw0t said:
We had a 23' Venture and I loved it. My wife could only handle about 30 days at a time on the boat. Always moving things around into the berth out of the berth. Storage was always an issue. We wanted a bigger boat that we could still trailer. Marc from Wefings had a loaded 2014 R-27 with only 11 hours on it that had been used as a demo of sorts. It had A.C. reverse cycle heat, diesel generator, windless, 140 watt solar panel, a complete Garmin electronics suite with Radar, auto pilot, VHF radio, and 12" 7212 chart plotter. It had a decent sized refridge with freezer, two burner propane stove with a small oven that we actually use from time to time. We added a nice custom camper back, a Vesper Watchmate 850 AIS up graded the anchor to a 35 pound Mansion Supreme. 4" memory foam in the berth. NO WINE COOLER. The nicest part was it came finished and everything had it's place. No condensation drips that fall on you in the berth. We trailered to the Trent Severn in 2015 and Coast to coast last summer to the Northwest and back home to PA. This our second year on it down in the Florida Keys where we stay on it for two months at a time. Lots of people have thought it is an older boat that has been restored. I think it looks nice but not flashy. Anyone who has who ever has met me could easy see I'm about as far from flashy that you can get. I don't really consider myself as throwing money around in buying a boat that allows us to spend more time on it more comfortably than we did on our C-Dory. I loved our C-Dory but this seemed like a natural transition that many other C-Dory owners have made. We are putting our boat up for sale as we want to transition to a cottage on Lake Ontario and a much simpler fishing boat for trolling for salmon and steelhead. Life goes on nothing flashy about it.
D.D.
D.D.
Dave, it was a pleasure to get to meet and cruise together some last summer. That boat fit you like a glove and we had a great time. If I was looking for a tug, I'd be at your doorstep when you are ready. BUT, it is bigger than I need, and more boat than my PU will tow. It is a nice Ranger, and you two have really put it through some paces. Good to hear you have enjoyed the ride.
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
Harvey
SleepyC :moon
There is a downside to building a boat with a long-term production run. As the costs of boatbuilding continues to increase (labor, materials, etc.), the new boats being built start to compete with identical models in the used boat market. Well-constructed fiberglass boats don't wear out, and it's fairly easy (but not cheap) to re-power an outboard boat.
At some point, buyers will choose a used boat in good condition rather than a new one when there are minimal differences between the 2007 model and the 2017 model.
The C-brat classifieds list older and well-equipped C-dories at a lower price that that of a new "bare bones" boat that will require electronics, outfitting, and too many visits to West Marine.
At some point, buyers will choose a used boat in good condition rather than a new one when there are minimal differences between the 2007 model and the 2017 model.
The C-brat classifieds list older and well-equipped C-dories at a lower price that that of a new "bare bones" boat that will require electronics, outfitting, and too many visits to West Marine.
My take is that c-dory and ranger are completely different boats targeting very different buyers. Except the ranger 21 , rangers target a more upscale, feature focused customer base. C-dory is spartan/utilitarian , generally lack proper toilets, and, as with automobiles, that market is disappearing. Think of a contractor pickup with vinyl seats, roll-up windows, no AC, and a straight 6, compared with heated leather seats, quad cab, premium audio, and DVD players for the kids. Which is selling today? Which makes more sense to manufacture? Even so, I'm happy to find people like the c- brats who favor simplicity over flash, and aren't too soft to pee into a bucket.
I'm ok with the ladies who would rather have a sit down flush toilet with a holding tank than pee in a bucket. I guess in some circles some might consider that flashy. I don't know about the soft part but generally I set my expectations are a little higher as to what I will settle for in a lady. I think the bucket idea is still great for folks who would judge others by where and how they go to the bathroom. :roll:
D.D.
D.D.
Hey Dave,
I won't judge you by any of your bathroom habits... as long as you promise not to tell us about it! :disgust
Some people have compared C-Dorys to Jeeps. Yes, I know the new Grand Cherokee Overland is sweet, but there are plenty of folks who are good with a Jeep Wrangler.
While I have been critical of the lack of marketing from the factory, I think there IS room in the market for this boat. The fact that Ranger is selling the heck out of their R-23, should be evidence.
And, for the record, our 25 had a very civilized toilet in it. 8)
Jim
I won't judge you by any of your bathroom habits... as long as you promise not to tell us about it! :disgust
Some people have compared C-Dorys to Jeeps. Yes, I know the new Grand Cherokee Overland is sweet, but there are plenty of folks who are good with a Jeep Wrangler.
While I have been critical of the lack of marketing from the factory, I think there IS room in the market for this boat. The fact that Ranger is selling the heck out of their R-23, should be evidence.
And, for the record, our 25 had a very civilized toilet in it. 8)
Jim
Westward good analogy. I prefer the C Dory because I can hose it out and scrub it down--a proper boat! What is going to happen with these lined interiors when mold starts growing during the Florida summers? Tear out the headliners? Ever seen what a 15 year old boat built like the RT inside looks like?
I had looked carefully at the 27's--but the cramped space for working on the diesel, plus some other factors made me think better. (not going to sleep 4 more midgets on a 27 foot boat.
The Ranger 272, would cost over 1/4 million dollars equipped the way I would want it, including taxes and delivery. It is not a 27 foot boat, it is over 31 feet--with the swim step--and probably longer with the OB up to trailer--add trailer tongue--and you are in the high 30's for trailering length. Doable, but some ramps cannot handle that size of boat. I suspect that when wet and with gear, the boat is going to be as heavy as the Tom Cat--and won't have the ride.
As for sailors being "cheap"--that is somewhat a myth, based on cost of fuel. Ever price a set of racing sails? My last racing boat was in the late 70's, and was a 45 footer, which we raced over 100 times a year, with a crew of 8 to 10. This included several Mexican and transpacific races--talk about expensive--the cost of several new C Dorys a year just in expenses...My next few years were as a watch captain on a friend's 55 footer--whose expenses made mine look like chicken feed.
I want a boat which is easy to care for. I got a few scratches on Thisaway from broken trees in narrow rivers this last week--no sweat. If I had one of those rangers, with a colored hull--lots of sweat!
As for the cost of building boats--there is a lot more to it--consider the cost of a set of molds for a new model being in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. That has to amortized over a sizable run. Certainly the flashy interior makes the cost of the Ranger series considerably more. Does it really enhance the boating experience with a 30 gallon holding tank? Do you really need a table in the center of the V berth? Do you really want to sleep 6 in a 27 foot boat?
I had looked carefully at the 27's--but the cramped space for working on the diesel, plus some other factors made me think better. (not going to sleep 4 more midgets on a 27 foot boat.
The Ranger 272, would cost over 1/4 million dollars equipped the way I would want it, including taxes and delivery. It is not a 27 foot boat, it is over 31 feet--with the swim step--and probably longer with the OB up to trailer--add trailer tongue--and you are in the high 30's for trailering length. Doable, but some ramps cannot handle that size of boat. I suspect that when wet and with gear, the boat is going to be as heavy as the Tom Cat--and won't have the ride.
As for sailors being "cheap"--that is somewhat a myth, based on cost of fuel. Ever price a set of racing sails? My last racing boat was in the late 70's, and was a 45 footer, which we raced over 100 times a year, with a crew of 8 to 10. This included several Mexican and transpacific races--talk about expensive--the cost of several new C Dorys a year just in expenses...My next few years were as a watch captain on a friend's 55 footer--whose expenses made mine look like chicken feed.
I want a boat which is easy to care for. I got a few scratches on Thisaway from broken trees in narrow rivers this last week--no sweat. If I had one of those rangers, with a colored hull--lots of sweat!
As for the cost of building boats--there is a lot more to it--consider the cost of a set of molds for a new model being in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. That has to amortized over a sizable run. Certainly the flashy interior makes the cost of the Ranger series considerably more. Does it really enhance the boating experience with a 30 gallon holding tank? Do you really need a table in the center of the V berth? Do you really want to sleep 6 in a 27 foot boat?
Our boat is 30'1" with the swim platform. About 58' long on the trailer with a long bed extended cab pick up. Longer if you tow with a 40' motor home. Our C-Dory had a blue hull they will sell gel coat in all colors. For me I think the R-27 is a great two person boat. We never slept more than two. We use the area called the cave as a storage area the mattress has been remove almost as soon as we got the boat home. We occasionally fish with three aboard. As far as the insulated or lined interiors our 2008 Venture 23' never had any issues with the interior getting mildewed up. I sold it in the spring of 2015 it still looked good. When I was not on the boat it stayed in the driveway plugged into shore power and with a heater on in the winter. Same deal with the Ranger
Our C-Dory weighed in about 5500 pounds on a trailer. Our Ranger weighs in at 10,400 pounds. About 840 pounds of tongue weight. No air bags or helper springs required. Our boat does not ride bad in the water but we cruise at either 7 or 8 mph or 15 mph. Not a fast boat. The idea of having engine provided heat in the cabin and engine heated hot water are a plus for the diesels over the out boards. The whole R-27 boat is a lot more complicated. It has a lot of different systems. I do our own service on the engine and the generator with the except of impeller changes on the main engine. I have a Volvo guy come out to do that. Not a lot of money. 100 dollars if I supply the part and take the boat to them. $360 if they come to me and swap out both engine belts me supplying the parts. I have to say the wiring and wiring diagrams are beautifully done. Nice documentation. Diesel is a much safer fuel than gas most people would agree. Carrying a dinghy on davits would seem to be an issue with an outboard R-272.
I'm not knocking C-Dory's I loved ours. Like I said before we wanted more room and my wife like the amenities of the Ranger. The holding tank seemed like a better option then just dumping a bucket over board; for us anyway. We don't have any gold plated fixtures don't really see it as being flashy or us having been stupid throwing money around for the flash that I don't really see. It is a nice looking interior with a lot of wood.
So again I'm not throwing any stones a C-Dory's but it still different stroke for different folks. Two totally different boats. I would say I would think over the last 4 years Ranger might have sold a few more new boats than C-Dory. So there must be more than a couple reasons. Nothing wrong with not being a minimalist in boating for us.
D.D.
Our C-Dory weighed in about 5500 pounds on a trailer. Our Ranger weighs in at 10,400 pounds. About 840 pounds of tongue weight. No air bags or helper springs required. Our boat does not ride bad in the water but we cruise at either 7 or 8 mph or 15 mph. Not a fast boat. The idea of having engine provided heat in the cabin and engine heated hot water are a plus for the diesels over the out boards. The whole R-27 boat is a lot more complicated. It has a lot of different systems. I do our own service on the engine and the generator with the except of impeller changes on the main engine. I have a Volvo guy come out to do that. Not a lot of money. 100 dollars if I supply the part and take the boat to them. $360 if they come to me and swap out both engine belts me supplying the parts. I have to say the wiring and wiring diagrams are beautifully done. Nice documentation. Diesel is a much safer fuel than gas most people would agree. Carrying a dinghy on davits would seem to be an issue with an outboard R-272.
I'm not knocking C-Dory's I loved ours. Like I said before we wanted more room and my wife like the amenities of the Ranger. The holding tank seemed like a better option then just dumping a bucket over board; for us anyway. We don't have any gold plated fixtures don't really see it as being flashy or us having been stupid throwing money around for the flash that I don't really see. It is a nice looking interior with a lot of wood.
So again I'm not throwing any stones a C-Dory's but it still different stroke for different folks. Two totally different boats. I would say I would think over the last 4 years Ranger might have sold a few more new boats than C-Dory. So there must be more than a couple reasons. Nothing wrong with not being a minimalist in boating for us.
D.D.
Minimalism is for wimps! If I has the money (lottery as I don't want to work that hard and was not born rich) I'd have a 55 Hinkley Talaria as the tender for my real boat/ship. I'd make sure my captain and crew kept both shipshape!
This would be my head on the Hinkley :smiled
Now that's a proper head!
This would be my head on the Hinkley :smiled
Now that's a proper head!
PaulNBriannaLynn
New member
The 23 fills a niche which Ranger tug previously wasn't able to fill. That's why its been so successful. Their 22 was more of a cute little day boat. The 25 was hard for me to take seriously, too much fine wine and cheese packed into a small space, and not enough utility. A lot of boat buyers are more comfortable with a modern 4 stroke outboard instead of the diesel single screw. The 23 has a real head instead of a glorified bucket with a seat. The one we looked at had an HVAC system installed, a fridge and a cooktop. At $120k, its hard to beat in todays market. It still might be a little fancy for a stinky fisherman like myself, but it was a lot of boat for the money.
AFAIK, the price of a new Ranger 23 and a new C-Dory 25 are about the same (and not much more than a new CD22). But if you look at the two of them, it at least appears that you are getting a lot more for your money with the R23 than the CD25. In theory the CD25 is a little bigger, but sitting next to an R23 it doesn't look it.
Not so sure why all of the preoccupation on "potties"! Looks like some chains may have been pulled ! The Ranger Tugs are beautiful boats, and if I lived and boated mostly in the PNW, I might own a 27 (and even change my own impeller, even though it is cramped)...On second thought, I watched the excellent tech video on the Ranger Tug Site: http://www.rangertugs.com/videos.aspx on changing that impeller. No way, I would go thru removing two panels, one teak plywood, and one covered with "mouse fur", with I believe about a dozen screws to change an impeller--One really needs to see this excellent tech video... 
The Ranger 272 looks like an interesting boat--not sure how many are in existence at this point--and I would love to see one. We have a local boat show this weekend--and our local Ranger Tug dealer does not have a Ranger 272.
One point which is missed in the discussion of inboards vs outboards, is the shoal draft. On the Hontoon cruise there is no way an inboard Ranger Tug would have been able to make many of our stops, because of shoal water--we slipped over some places with actual depth of 18".
Also there is no question that Ranger has hit a niche in the market--and I have said that they are marketing similar to Nordhavn--giving excellent service, listening to their customers and then giving what they want. This builds a loyal client base. Their marketing is extensive and effective. The C Dory is not for everyone--no question--
My apology to any who I may have offended!
The Ranger 272 looks like an interesting boat--not sure how many are in existence at this point--and I would love to see one. We have a local boat show this weekend--and our local Ranger Tug dealer does not have a Ranger 272.
One point which is missed in the discussion of inboards vs outboards, is the shoal draft. On the Hontoon cruise there is no way an inboard Ranger Tug would have been able to make many of our stops, because of shoal water--we slipped over some places with actual depth of 18".
Also there is no question that Ranger has hit a niche in the market--and I have said that they are marketing similar to Nordhavn--giving excellent service, listening to their customers and then giving what they want. This builds a loyal client base. Their marketing is extensive and effective. The C Dory is not for everyone--no question--
My apology to any who I may have offended!
ssobol":1x4whn68 said:
"Not much more than a new CD22"...that depends on how deep your pockets are...for me a bare bones 22 was at the max end of my new-boat budget...no way I would have even considered a 25 cruiser, or an R23! (and if I could have, the 22 would have still been first choice for personal reasons stated earlier, i.e., 90 HP pocket cruiser!!!).
As far as R23 vs CD25 pricing and one being "more for your money", again that is all dependent on your personal values in a boat, as has been stated in this entire thread. In my eyes the CD25 has many qualities the R23 doesn't, still making it an equally good buy, but obviously everyone has different personal preferences and priorities.
Pricing from 2017 SBS:
