Ranger Tug 21ec - My Observation!

IdleUp":4inw3i13 said:
JamesTXSD":4inw3i13 said:
I hope this doesn't come across as not being nice, but... why would anyone head somewhere to "tie up" a deal if you haven't done your homework??? You want faster, more room, a bigger cabin? Well, you just described a C-Dory 22. Oh, you won't have a diesel in it.

Just because this boat doesn't work for you is no reason that Ranger should change their design. You buy a boat for what it does and how you will use it... and it sounds like this boat should not have been on your consideration list to start with. We did have a guy who came on here several months ago with many of the same concerns you have AND a similar attitude... I'm speaking of that "Come on, Ranger, get with it..." stuff. You get to vote with your dollars, but that doesn't mean you get to control what they build. Check into a custom builder - see if they can come up with a marine architect who will design you just what you want. Frankly, I think you'll be hard pressed to come up with all that you want, keep it to 21 feet, and still have that inboard diesel.

Just out of curiosity, what other other boats are on your consideration list?

Jim B.
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It's funny you mentioned this but everyone that climbed aboard the 21 while I was there had the same exact comments . . . The cabin is too cramped, I don't think I could live with the 10 knots, and the price was too high.
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Believe me - while I was in the cabin the other people looking, walked around the boat or sat in the stern. Regarding the economy, if you guys do the math - due to the slow speed, the R21 is not really any more economical than boats considerable larger. My Mainship 30 had a 300 hp Yanmar and at 8 knots it was just barely above idle and used less fuel than the R21. You have to accept the fact that while the boat reports a small fuel consumption per hour, it's not moving very fast.

Bottom line, the engine is too small, causing the boat to go too slow - you should be able to throttle back to less than half throttle and do 8-10 knots - in this day and age of modern diesel engines, there is no reason to run that engine almost wide open to cruise around - it's not right and does not fit the whole theory of the mini trawler.

I'll add another comment, for the guy who wants to leave the R21 in the water, keep in mind that in 6 months you'll lose around 20% of your speed for growth and you'll find yourself running 6 knots WOT.
 
Well, I guess you must have missed my question... twice.


What other boats made your consideration list?

Truly, I don't mean to come across rude, but you seem to have an agenda. You were going to "tie up" (I take that as: write the check and buy the boat), but now Ranger won't get your money because of all the "faults" you discovered?? Were there other boats at the show that you wouldn't buy? Any that made your cut? Many of us would be interested to hear what boat of a similar size, style, and less price you find fits your needs. Please, enlighten us.

IdleUp, methinks you didn't do any homework at all. Methinks you weren't going to buy the boat. Some people just like to talk about buying. We have a phrase for that in Texas: big hat, no cattle.

So, what other boats made your consideration list? Let me phrase it another way: is there any other boat out there that you considered besides the R-21? How 'bout this: Did you consider "tying up" any other boats at that boat show? I guess what I'm asking is: Were you able to find a 21 foot boat with a big cabin, large engine, planing hull, diesel inboard, inexpensive price, trailerable... that you DID "tie up"? If you didn't care for this boat (and why would you go there to "tie up"), what boat does meet your needs?
 
Brent":v29p93np said:
I am curious about your cost of $65K for the boat. Please explain.
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That's easily explained. $50,000 for the base boat at the factory door, plus $15,000 to add some optional equipment and get the boat where it needs to be for sale. He also might be including sales taxes and additional outfitting in that figure.
 
Maybe he and It-Sea-Bit-C could go into business together modifing the 21. I envision rebuilding the hull from the waterline down into a 3 point hydo and perhaps slideouts on the cabin similiar to what RV's have. Under the motor cover could be and outboard well with a 300 Suzuki. To all those who own and are content with the 21 I got to tell you that is one fine looking vessel. One passed by my dock about a month ago and it took me hours to wipe the smile off my face.
 
I have nothing to add about the R-21 except that I was drawn to it every time I visited my Tomcat at the dealership. The lines are just awesome and if I could afford to own multiple boats I would have one of the Ranger Tugs. I would love to go for a cruise on one of those.

I'm curious about the prop you had on your trawlers that ran 8 knots in idle?!? That would be one hell of a party trying to dock! 8 knots is close to WOT on one of the 26' boats I run, at least in terms of my available throttle range on the console.

Clearly the R-21 is not for you. It was good for you to figure this out in advance. It would be tragic to buy a boat then discover you do not like it.
 
Well, I feel like I'm betraying my 16 footer, but, when I first saw that Ranger 21 that Les brought to Poulsbo a few years ago, I was smitten. While I will never have one because my car can't pull it, and I can't afford it anyway, I love it and am happy for those who have it.
 
I, too, fell in love with the lines and basic construction of the EC-21. I even like the older models!

However, in the final analysis, I just could not live with the restricted speed here on MidWestern lakes where we often have to outrun storms to find lee moorage, or the safety of the docks.

I love my TomCat 255 and actually spend most of my time on it cruising at 6-8 smph on autopilot... That is relaxing, with time to photograph, draw, daydream, and soak up the local sights, or enjoy a conversation.

I get 2.5-3 smiles per gallon at those speed on the TomCat, but have to run on a plane to keep the algae level down on the hull and the engines in shape. As such, it is a very swift kick in the pants to have to fill up those twin 75 gallon tanks at $5 per gallon down here!

Like Matt, if I could justify it, I'd have an EC-21 tied up right next to my TomCat.

I was sorry at first to hear of Idle Up's disappointment in the EC-21 upon his first test cruise, but most of his complaints about the cabin size and limited speed are pretty obvious, even at a distant perusal in photos, brochures, etc..

However, Idle Up, as you persist in foisting some form of "blame" upon the designers and manufacturer of the EC-21, or some form of engineering failure on their part, my compassion for your situation is fading.

The world of marine design has for centuries worked within the limits of the laws of physics and the laws of nature to the extent that any potential boat owner MUST choose between designs that are large, roomy, fast and expensive to operate and designes that are more sleek (hullwise), smaller inside, slower, and economical to operate.

You simply need to accept the laws of nature and the laws of physics and deal with the reality that one must CHOOSE the path, the craft, that most closely embodies his desires, instead of harping on those designers, manufacturers and users of models which fail to meet his wants.

Best of luck... and I'd beware of anybody offering you a craft with the exact features you are wanting all in one boat.


John
 
Idleup,

Remember that diesels must be loaded correctly if you want them to last. If you put a 75 horsepower diesel in a R21, and only ran 8 knots, you'd significantly shorten its lifespan.

Seriously though, have you looked at the CD22? It sounds like the perfect boat for you...
 
To me, the R21 tug would be an ideal boat for crabbing/shrimping due to the large cockpit and sufficient space to keep 2 people dry in the cabin. I also see it as an awesome "picnic boat" - e.g. a great boat to cruise around with friends on a dry day or evening. My CD 22 doesn't have near the cockpit space of an R21 and boy there sure are times when I'd love to have that. Personally, I don't see the R21 as an over night boat but there are plenty here who use their boat that way. I agree that the pilot house is small/cramped and not the best for cooking and long term cruising. However, the cockpit is great!

So as others have said, it really comes down to what you want in a boat and how you plan to use it. The R21 has clearly exchanged cabin space for cockpit space and then with the remaining cabin space jammed in as much utility as possible. Of course, some of the functionality that is crammed into the cabin will not be the equal of similar functionality to that in a large cabin. Hence, some (IdleUp and perhaps me included), would just as soon not have certain items in the smaller cabin afforded by an R21. BUT Ranger Tugs isn't building the typical boat for just me (or for just IdleUp) but for what they think the market wants. HOWEVER, the people at Ranger Tugs are very accommodating and would probably adjust what's in the cabin to suit an individual user's desire. So rather than ranting here, did you consider discussing what you didn't like with the good folks at Ranger and asking what changes they could and could not make?

Also, as far as the speed goes, a 21' boat probably only has about 18' at the waterline giving you a roughly 6kt hull speed. Anything over that will require sufficient power to bring the boat on plane and the power requirements to get on plane the power requirements are much higher (for example, I cannot plane my 22 cd on just one of my twin 40's). Your 30' boat probably has/had about 26' at the water line and hence the displacement speed would be closer to 7kts (maybe 8 ). That is, a natural consequence of a longer boat is that you will get a higher displacement speed (the speed increase will go as the square root of the length). That's physics, neither you nor any boat builder can do anything about that. On all boats, the fuel economy can be very good at displacement speeds and below with low power. However, to get on plane will require more power and SIGNIFICANTLY higher fuel burns. The vast majority of people are not looking for that in a trawler (especially in these days of high fuel costs). In addition, the tug hulls were not really designed with planing in mind. Sure they can plane with enough HP but that's not the intention of the design. Hence the expectation that you have for much higher speeds and HP is not what most in the market want and not what the boat was designed to do. While you may see this as a "flaw", others see it as a "feature". BTW - what was the fuel burn of your Mainship 30 or 34 at 12kts? or 18kts? I'm betting you got about 4MPG at displacement speeds (which BTW is a similar to the R21 at displacement speed).

Finally, as to the need for a stern thruster on a 21' boat.... It's so damn easy to dock a small boat, I can't imagine why anyone would think that they need this (with the exception that it is required for the European Union's CE mark)! Hence, it's not surprising that it's not typically built in.
 
Ok, it’s clear to see that you guys are only going to look at it your way!
Hey, I’m 60+ years old, I’m not in the shrimp business or pulling traps, I wanted the boat for enjoyment and COMFORT. If I was 40 years old again, I might be able to put up with it, but I’m not. I’m not going to try to squeeze in that 5” of space between the seat and that cabinet. Nor fumble around with that make-shift fold down device they came up with. I don’t like my knees jammed up against the wheel, I don’t using my bunk as a foot-stool, nor am I going to ask my better half to perch on top of a plywood cushion sitting partly on a stove and the sink. Read my lips, “the cabin is too small” the boat needs a re-design and another foot in the beam to make it work.
Regarding the engine – half the posts on this forum are guys crying about the slow speed – so it’s not like I’m bringing up anything new here. It does not make sense to run that little engine wide-open to do 8 mph. The engine is too SMALL for the boat. If you’re bucking a current and or a sea you’ll be doing only around 3-4 mph. That is unsafe as a bay boat in anyone’s book.
Regarding the fuel economy & trawlers – I’ve owned a Mainship 39 - Pilot 34 and a Pilot 30, so I’m pretty up to date on what they burn. As I mentioned, when I put my 34 or 30 in gear and raised the engine to high idle, around 1000 rpm - the semi-displacement hull would slip through the water at 6-8 mph and burn around ½ gallon per hour per hour.

For all the experts who told me I was wrong with my numbers - I have an image of a certified test of the 34 keep in mind, my boat was considerable lighter than this boat. Also keep in mind that this boat weights around 1500 lbs – now do you believe the R21 is not fuel efficient?

pilot34.jpg

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Base price w/ Yanmar 6LP-STE Diesel (300 HP) $147,900
Street Price $120-125,000
 
Idle Up... There ya' go! A Mainship! You are where you want/need to be.

No amount of carping will make a 21 foot, tiny tug into a 39 foot Mainship.

No engineer can economically make a 21 foot tiny tug into a the cubic foot of the boat you post!

So, Enjoy! I bet you can get a pretty good deal on a 39 foot Mainship right now!

John

ps, Ppl who want a bigger boat with a bigger engine are welcome to buy just that. What we're holding onto is that other ppl have the right to choose a small, narrow boat with small engine and cabin. It does not seem reasonable for a person who wants a bigger, more powerful boat to gripe about a comany's making a smaller, narrower, lowered powered boat. Maybe you should write Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Mercury and Johnson to gripe about their making engines 40 hp and under.

Just choose a boat with the size and power you want and be happy.
 
drjohn71a":dbuxjv3k said:
Idle Up... There ya' go! A Mainship! You are where you want/need to be.

No amount of carping will make a 21 foot, tiny tug into a 39 foot Mainship.

No engineer can economically make a 21 foot tiny tug into a the cubic foot of the boat you post!

So, Enjoy! I bet you can get a pretty good deal on a 39 foot Mainship right now!

John
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John - You need to read the post - no one is comparing the R21 to a Mainship because you can't - there is no comparison. I was just bring up the fact that a 15,000 pound boat could do 8 mph with the same economy of the R21.
 
Idle Up,

Sure, you can OCCASIONALLY run a Mainship at that slow speed, but you cannot limit the operation of the larger engine to that low rpm without shortening it's life. It is designed to operate for long periods in the higher rpm range. It is DESIGNED, powered, propped, shaped, etc., for a different purpose.

John
 
By the way John thanks for confirming my point about weather with your image below - using your own words:


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"Trying to beat the storms to La Conner"

Are you doing more than 8 mph trying to outrun those storms?

By the way, how much fuel do those dual Honda's burn per hour?
 
drjohn71a":8r52685o said:
Idle Up,

Sure, you can OCCASIONALLY run a Mainship at that slow speed, but you cannot limit the operation of the larger engine to that low rpm without shortening it's life. It is designed to operate for long periods in the higher rpm range. It is DESIGNED, powered, propped, shaped, etc., for a different purpose.

John
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I hate to differ with you but there are thousands and thousands of Cummins with turbos' which idle 90% of the time for years and years with no sign of problems both in the marine industry and for public service i.e. power, utility, ambulances etc.
 
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