Looks like we will need to re-power our 22' Cruiser sooner than later (1100 hours on each Honda twin 40). We have a bid of $13,400 (out the door) to re-power with twin 50's using the existing infrastructure. Does this sound reasonable? We are in inland Southern Cal and Honda service centers are far and few between so we thought we'd ask the experts. The advise to re-power instead of servicing for another season came from the service center and based on a compression check reading of less than 100 on all 6 cylinders (and general wear).
Re-power decision
- Thread starter knewlin
- Start date
If you can conveniently do so, I would get a few more quotes. Backing out the labor and materials cost for batteries/switching/tie bar/hydraulic lines/controls/gauges/remote fuel filter, etc. (I assume this is what's meant by re-using the existing infrastructure) your quote seems quite high to me. For comparison's sake, EQ was charging $12,500.00 for new, fully rigged Honda twin 50's last Summer. Their price included all the above infrastructure, all of high quality. The current economy is also quite a bit weaker than last Summer's, and this isn't the height of boating season. I would not, however, expand your choice to twins from other MFG.'s, whose 50's are very much heavier. Good luck in getting a quality installation for a fair price! Mike.
Wandering Sagebrush
Free Range Human
You may also want to check with an Oregon Honda dealer. No sales tax. Might pay for a vacation trip.
Steve
Steve
Contact Eric at Specialty Marine in Oxnard.
Have him check the engines, if he thinks they are not repairable then consider your options. Also check out the scratch/dents that Honda sells at a discount.
These are new engines that the crates have been damaged- usually the engines are in good shape.
Have him check the engines, if he thinks they are not repairable then consider your options. Also check out the scratch/dents that Honda sells at a discount.
These are new engines that the crates have been damaged- usually the engines are in good shape.
Is the engine running poorly and/or stalling? Burning excessive amounts of oil? What do the plugs look like? Did they perform a dry and wet readings? and provide both data sets?
Several years ago, several auto repair and transmission shops in Indy got caught causing fraud and it was caught on tape and they used secret codes on estimates to show a possible new target.
City PA and legal staff fixed their wagons later in court. Women were mostly targeted. Last year a mess of cement contractors got caught and working together fixing prices and the Feds poured some real concrete on them in court. Some were to prison. the others cried all over TV and newspapers and got reduced sentences but some hefty fines. All have federal convictions on their recors. All will have free tax returns audit for the next 20 years b/c they have hidden assets that they will need to tap soon and round 2 of legal isues will surface. Plenty of bankruptcy auctions of new homes, boats (no C-dorys that I saw), condos, race cars, sport cars, expensive jewelery and guns, etc. One guy got a short check one month and called the Feds. Greedy folks do stupid stuff.
sorry off my soapbox. I been on it all day and running out of stuff.
Several years ago, several auto repair and transmission shops in Indy got caught causing fraud and it was caught on tape and they used secret codes on estimates to show a possible new target.
City PA and legal staff fixed their wagons later in court. Women were mostly targeted. Last year a mess of cement contractors got caught and working together fixing prices and the Feds poured some real concrete on them in court. Some were to prison. the others cried all over TV and newspapers and got reduced sentences but some hefty fines. All have federal convictions on their recors. All will have free tax returns audit for the next 20 years b/c they have hidden assets that they will need to tap soon and round 2 of legal isues will surface. Plenty of bankruptcy auctions of new homes, boats (no C-dorys that I saw), condos, race cars, sport cars, expensive jewelery and guns, etc. One guy got a short check one month and called the Feds. Greedy folks do stupid stuff.
sorry off my soapbox. I been on it all day and running out of stuff.
Cutty Sark
New member
I would echo the fact that 1100 hours seems like an early demise, I would definitly get a second opinion, It's strange that both went at the same time. I hope to get more life than that out of my suzuki. Were they running poorly?
Sark
Sark
Captains Cat
New member
I agree with getting a second opinion. Bil and El got nearly 2000 hours out of their twin 40s before one blew a power head and the other one was still running fine.
Charlie
Charlie
patrick and linda
New member
I ALSO HAVE TWIN HONDA 40'S. CURRENT HOURS ARE APPROX. 250.
WHAT IS THE GENERAL CONSENSUS FOR TOTAL EXPECTED ENGINE LIFE HOURS? (USING NORMAL OPERATION AND MAINTAINANCE PROCEDURES)
THANKS
PAT
WHAT IS THE GENERAL CONSENSUS FOR TOTAL EXPECTED ENGINE LIFE HOURS? (USING NORMAL OPERATION AND MAINTAINANCE PROCEDURES)
THANKS
PAT
Les Lampman
New member
capt. patrick campbell":130wr1go said:
Hi Pat,
This is like asking a car manufacturer how long your new truck will last. They'll tell you they have a X miles/y years warranty and that you shoule get good service...and that's the end of it. What gives us a warmer feeling is knowing or hearing about a lot of folks routinely getting 250,000 or 300,000 miles (or more) out of a truck without too many issues.
It's harder to come by this information on outboards due to the way they're used and the lack of one in every garage. I can tell you that about 10 years ago Honda bought back a Honda 35/45 (same engine as the BF40/50 before the horsepower boost) with 5,000 hours on it so they could tear it down and inspect it. That was a commercial engine and they always seem to last longer. It would not surprise me to see 2500 to 3000 hours out of a well maintained BF40/50. Of course less for one that didn't get looked after as well.
This doesn't sound right at all. I would expect even a modestly maintained (at least the oil changed once in a while) Honda BF40/50 to hit 2,000 hours without too much trouble. To have both need repacement at 1100 hours is not within the realm of "normal".knewlin":130wr1go said:
If both engines are getting the same readings, both engines start well, both run well, and neither is using oil I'd say you didn't get competent information. I'd just keep using the engines and have them tested at someplace more familiar with Honda outboards. If someone asked me to check the compression on 1100-hour Honda engines I'd have to ask why and find out if they suspect something is amiss; otherwise that's equivalent to having about 50,000 miles on car engine and you wouldn't typically suspect a "worn out" engine.
Compression is just one factor to consider. A more important factor is the differences between cylinders.
If the engines are running well, not "burning oil" there is no reason to change.
Frankly 1000 hours is not a lot of hours.
Get a second opinion from a reputable advisor.
Rick
If the engines are running well, not "burning oil" there is no reason to change.
Frankly 1000 hours is not a lot of hours.
Get a second opinion from a reputable advisor.
Rick
patrick and linda
New member
GOOD DEAL!
THANKS FOR THE UPDATE.
PAT
THANKS FOR THE UPDATE.
PAT
Your doing the perfect thing.... and I agree with Roger about the dealer in Oxnard.... he's fair and honest... I also agree that 1100 hours seems a bit low to need replacement, but it is possible... I hope to be looking at 2500 hours before I want to replace my twin Yamaha 40's....
Good Luck
Joel
SEA3PO
Good Luck
Joel
SEA3PO
From my experience as an outboard mechanic.
A compression test is a 'relative' test, not an 'absolute' test!
Many things can affect the actual number the mechanic reads on the gauge. The gauge used, the technique of the mechanic, whether or not the engine has been run recently(oil on the rings to seal them), engine hot or cold, throttles open or closed, and so on.
The test is to compare the cylinders to one another. If all cylinders run 100lbs except for one at 80 lbs, then that cylinder has a problem. It could be rings or valves or a scored cylinder.
When I was servicing two stroke motors, I would crank the motor until the gauge was at maximum, watching the increase in pressure with each revolution. I tried to crank each cylinder the same number of times. technique and accurate repetition on each cylinder is important to get good results from the test.
There is another test to check out rings and valves. It is a 'leak down' test. Compressed air is hooked up to a fitting that is inserted in the spark plug hole and the crank is rotated slowly with a wrench. The pressure is read on a gauge. This test can tell if rings or valves are leaking at any point in the stroke.
Summary: If all cylinders are equal and the motor runs well, I would not replace motors just because the readings are 100 lbs.
A compression test is a 'relative' test, not an 'absolute' test!
Many things can affect the actual number the mechanic reads on the gauge. The gauge used, the technique of the mechanic, whether or not the engine has been run recently(oil on the rings to seal them), engine hot or cold, throttles open or closed, and so on.
The test is to compare the cylinders to one another. If all cylinders run 100lbs except for one at 80 lbs, then that cylinder has a problem. It could be rings or valves or a scored cylinder.
When I was servicing two stroke motors, I would crank the motor until the gauge was at maximum, watching the increase in pressure with each revolution. I tried to crank each cylinder the same number of times. technique and accurate repetition on each cylinder is important to get good results from the test.
There is another test to check out rings and valves. It is a 'leak down' test. Compressed air is hooked up to a fitting that is inserted in the spark plug hole and the crank is rotated slowly with a wrench. The pressure is read on a gauge. This test can tell if rings or valves are leaking at any point in the stroke.
Summary: If all cylinders are equal and the motor runs well, I would not replace motors just because the readings are 100 lbs.
Sure agree with above--1100 hours is not many of one of the Hondas. The second opinion is a very good idea! I also would try and run the engines before the second opinion--and have the Leak Down test, Larry describes done at the same time.
Unless there is excessive corrosion (and some of the Hondas do corrode more than other outboards do). The older engines should still be good. If these engines are only 8 years old--that is not old for a Honda. There are 40 year old outboards still running. Most of the very high hour engines are in commercial use--as Les says, many of these are commercial engines (usually more robust perpherials and mounts etc)--Also the commercial use engines (some are seen with 4000 to 7000 or more house) are usually run daily, they are checked daily, they have excellent service, frequent oil changes, and often run about 50% of the time at low RPM, and the other 50% of the time at cruising speeds. In other words they are very well cared for.
Unless there is excessive corrosion (and some of the Hondas do corrode more than other outboards do). The older engines should still be good. If these engines are only 8 years old--that is not old for a Honda. There are 40 year old outboards still running. Most of the very high hour engines are in commercial use--as Les says, many of these are commercial engines (usually more robust perpherials and mounts etc)--Also the commercial use engines (some are seen with 4000 to 7000 or more house) are usually run daily, they are checked daily, they have excellent service, frequent oil changes, and often run about 50% of the time at low RPM, and the other 50% of the time at cruising speeds. In other words they are very well cared for.
Thanks for everyone's input. My husband went back to the first service center and picked up the boat then headed up to Oxnard to Specialty Marine for a second opinion. We have decided to go with Specialty's opinion; that our motors are in good shape, that nothing is wrong with the compression and that they have been well-maintained and have plenty of life left. They put two mechanics on it right away doing a complete service so Keith can get back on the road tonight. If we ever meet any of you in person....the first one's on us! Sounds like we will be making regular visits to Oxnard in the coming years! Oh darn....not another Channel Island trip 
Glad the trip to Eric's had a happy ending. Eric could sell a lot more engines if he sold them just to sell them.
The first time I met Eric at his shop, he loaned me his vacuum gauges to calibrate the carbs-- he even showed me how to use them and how adjust the carbs--- heck - we just went in to buy some filters for the twin 40's.
Nice to know there are still some service facilities that know the correct meaning of "service". So many people these days think service is taking the cow to be serviced by the bull :shock:
When you get ready to make a trip out to the Islands- just let us know.
I'll be back on the water by late April.
The first time I met Eric at his shop, he loaned me his vacuum gauges to calibrate the carbs-- he even showed me how to use them and how adjust the carbs--- heck - we just went in to buy some filters for the twin 40's.
Nice to know there are still some service facilities that know the correct meaning of "service". So many people these days think service is taking the cow to be serviced by the bull :shock:
When you get ready to make a trip out to the Islands- just let us know.
I'll be back on the water by late April.