Replacement Lazarette Covers (Again)

O

onthewater

New member
Hello All:

I received a PM from a C-Brat asking about our replacement Lazarette covers.

Jack was interested in the part number, and had questions about the installation. I replaced both covers in the Spring of 2012 and intended to post a note about the project along with pics then, but that didn't happen, so I'll belatedly do an update now.

As most are aware, the original covers were designed for vertical installation, and in that capacity they worked fine. However, when installed horizontally (especially in an area open to rain/spray) they leaked (sometimes badly). There was a small channel presumably designed to catch water, but it was quickly overwhelmed, and the laz would get wet. That's OK in a live well, but not-so-much where electrical and fuel components are concerned.


I ordered replacement covers from Defender, and they were very easy to deal with. Because it was a special order directly from the manufacturer, I had to call it in. They were drop shipped. Here is a copy of the part number in an email response to my inquiry at Defender customer service:

"Thank you for your interest in Defender. We can special order the SPA-40154 Dream white for you if you would like . The selling price would be $64.99 each. You would have to call to place the order and refer to item SPSPA-40154" .

I don't know if the price is still the same, but hopefully the part number is still correct. The Dream White color is a reasonably close match to the C-Dory hull color.

I approached this with a little concern, as I wanted to make sure they looked nice (since they're very visible) but most importantly wanted to fix the leak problem once, and for all.

The original starboard cover was removed first. I loosened the screws holding it down, and slid a thin putty knife under the lip, while working it around the perimeter.

It released with some "gentle persuasion". OK! The core was dry! I was on a roll.

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I used a scrap stick to peel away the gobs of bedding compound that was originally used when she was built.

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The opening was just a tad bigger than the new cover base, but by careful positioning I was able to line it up so it fit, and looked right. I marked where the new holes would have to be drilled, and made them "oversize". I then filled the oversize holes with thickened epoxy and let it set up.

Finally,, I re-drilled proper size holes for the new fasteners. The last step was to apply some 3M 4200 sealant around the underside periphery of the new hatch, and tighten the screws.

With one done, I figured this was nearly a wrap. Not so fast... The old port cover was removed in a similar fashion, but here there was some wet coring. I dug out all the wet material, and allowed it to dry.

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Then I made several batches of thickened epoxy and carefully forced it into the void. It was allowed to set up, and then more was added until the area was completely filled.

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The new hatches look sharp, and most importantly have been "bone dry" for the past year. It was definitely a worthwhile project, and not too difficult.

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So, I've gone through a number of these threads by now and have a pretty good idea of what needs to be done.

One question for the pros though. After I have removed any wet core and let everything dry back, am I supposed to almost "paint" the dry core with liquid epoxy and then after that immediately fill with my epoxy/filler mix?
 
I would suggest that any owners who do this worthwhile project also route out the dry core, and put in epoxy to assure that there is no further water intrusion, even if the surface appeared dry. It is only a small amount of extra work.

There are a number of threads on the hatch replacement.
 
haakebecks":1dp9gskl said:
One question ... though. After I have removed any wet core and let everything dry back, am I supposed to almost "paint" the dry core with liquid epoxy and then after that immediately fill with my epoxy/filler mix?
Click to expand...

Essentially, yes. It's not recommended* to put the typical thickened epoxy mixture directly onto dry core. Rather, you want to "paint on" (or let soak in, depending on orientation) a coat of "neat" (un-thickened) epoxy first, and then follow that with the thickened epoxy.

You can either do them one right after the other (if you have time before curing you can start with a batch of neat and then thicken the rest of the batch), or you can let the neat stuff tack up and then go in with the thickened. As long as the neat doesn't get past the green stage (in a nutshell, still tacky) you'll get a primary bond and won't have blush to worry about.

The only time it's really an advantage to wait is if you strategically need the tackiness of the neat coat (say you are then going to apply cloth to an overhead surface and need the help to make it stick), but there is also no harm in it as long as you don't get past the green stage.

*An exception I know of: WEST System say their 610 thickened epoxy that comes in a caulking-type tube can both wet out and then fill. I don't disbelieve them (they generally do good research), but I also think there would be times I would still want to *really* let some thinner/neat epoxy soak in. The lazarette core probably wouldn't worry me that way (whereas transom/below waterline would).

Sunbeam
 
I have been busy reading the epoxy thread which has been very helpful btw.

Thanks for the clarification!

So one other question... I assume I can just walk into pretty much any West Marine and pick this stuff up. Is that correct or do I need to order it all up online?
 
haakebecks":27qqjqeh said:
I assume I can just walk into pretty much any West Marine and pick this stuff up. Is that correct or do I need to order it all up online?
Click to expand...

I think most West Marine stores will have what you need, albeit you'll probably be limited to one brand, or maybe two, and things may cost a bit more (general pricing structure plus buying small packs factor). Most West stores I've been in carry WEST System (although the two are not related - just the name is similar). WEST is probably the most likely brand to come across in various "sticks and bricks" stores, although I have bought System Three in a few places as well (including woodworking type stores).

Online there is more of a selection of brands and sizes, and plus you can buy certain things in bulk (which you may not need anyway).

One thing you'll want to decide is how you want to mix/measure. WEST is a 5:1 ratio, so although you can theoretically measure by volume (i.e. with measured cups), it's a bit tricker. So for that I would probably go with their pumps or with a small digital scale and go by weight. With other brands a 2:1 ratio is common, so you can reasonably easily add in the measured cup option, or the scale or pumps way.

If you go with something pre-measured, like 610, then you just either use the supplied tips or pump it straight out and mix by hand.

Sunbeam

PS: What I use most of: Disposable nitrile gloves - I go through them at a rate of knots and don at least three per hand before diving in (610 eases this up slightly).

PPS: Favorite easy homemade tool: Cut up plastic milk jugs to make custom spreaders/filleters/applicators/etc.
 
Sunbeam, I realize that you don't use West Systems as much as some other products--but the ratio of hardener to resin is not always 5/1. Best to advise the neophite directly to the technical literature. For example 207 uses a 3:1. Weight and volume are not equal for mixtures of resin and hardener. West systems mixture is by volume only.

Some West System products are 1/1--such as the rapid set and G Flex.

The mini pump set does allow both 5:1 and 3:1.

Yes, you most likely can buy all that you need from a West Marine store, unless it is a very small one--even they can get the product a n day or so.

You can mix the epoxy, brush on the first coat, and then thicken it for the filler. Although it depends on the conditions, and hardener, generally you have 20 to 30 minutes of working time from the time you mix the hardener. You want to add thickening agents after the hardener has been added.
 
Thanks for all of the input guys. I went ahead and ordered up the hatches today. Next up is the epoxy. I'll let you know how the project ends up going. I won't be taking it on until we have the trailer delivered and the boat moved down to Oregon, so it will be a few weeks yet.

Currently just getting all of the stuff I need to tackle these projects from the get-go.

As I was going through some of the threads, I noticed that there were some proponents of butyl tape vs. 4200. Should I use 4200 to bed the hatch and then butyl tape on the screws/through bolts?

Also, once I have gone to all of this work, should I through bolt the hatch or screw back into the epoxy filled holes? Is there a preferred method?
 
Thataway,
Thanks for clarifying the resin ratio subject. I was figuring that the OP would use the standard 105/205 for this particular job (if using the WEST mixed product at all), but it's always best to clarify, and I should have done. So.... while the "standard" WEST resin/hardener combo is mixed 5:1 by volume, they do have some other products that are different (some of the less-usual hardeners that go with the 105, plus some of the speciality resins such as G/flex, etc.). Also, WEST 610 comes pre-thickened and pre-metered in a caulking-type tube. Always good to be sure, as epoxy likes to be mixed very precisely (or failures can ensue). Another note is that if you mix by weight, the ratios are slightly different (you can look them up).

haakebecks":npqzv3ja said:
As I was going through some of the threads, I noticed that there were some proponents of butyl tape vs. 4200. Should I use 4200 to bed the hatch and then butyl tape on the screws/through bolts?
Click to expand...

I would choose one or the other and then use it for both the fasteners and the flange, as they are basically connected. Also one thing to watch: The hatch flange is not very thick/strong, and if you use too much/too thick/too stiff caulking, it can end up bowing up between the fastener areas. I used butyl tape on a cool day, and the combination of the amount (you need a fair bit to fill the grooves) and the temperature caused this very problem (I removed the hatch, cleaned it off, and started over...).

haakebecks":npqzv3ja said:
Also, once I have gone to all of this work, should I through bolt the hatch or screw back into the epoxy filled holes? Is there a preferred method?
Click to expand...

I went back in with oval-headed machine screws with nuts/washers on the underside. I'm not a big fan of "blind" screws to hold on deck hardware unless there is a really good reason to not use machine screws (and I couldn't see one in this case).
 
I would not use butyl tape for the hatches. I have used it under metal parts (anchor roller, cleats) where I countersunk the screw holes. Metal parts will be strong enough to push the butyl into the countersink depression, and excess will ooze out the sides of the part you are mounting.

The hatch flanges aren't that strong, and I'd be concerned that if you used butyl, when you'd tightened them down it would either crack the flange around the screw, or you'd wind up with the flange being warped since it isn't strong enough to force the butyl out.

Also, cosmetically, clear 4000/4200 will look better between the gelcoat and plastic than gray tape.
 
ferret30":1z4ntokl said:
I would not use butyl tape for the hatches. I have used it under metal parts (anchor roller, cleats) where I countersunk the screw holes. Metal parts will be strong enough to push the butyl into the countersink depression, and excess will ooze out the sides of the part you are mounting.

The hatch flanges aren't that strong, and I'd be concerned that if you used butyl, when you'd tightened them down it would either crack the flange around the screw, or you'd wind up with the flange being warped since it isn't strong enough to force the butyl out.
Click to expand...

One note on this: I did have a problem like what you described on my hatch flanges, but I think I could have avoided it if I'd thought about it before-hand. Because it was a cool day and the butyl was also relatively cool and stiff. And because I had to put a lot on (to fill the grooves in the flange), it ended up "humping" the hatch flange between the fasteners. At that time, I removed it all and went back in with butyl caulk (which is much "flowier" when cool). In retrospect, if I did it again I would either do it on a warm/hot day, or pre-warm the butyl tape, and use the tape. (Once I trim the tape it doesn't tend to show.) The butyl caulk works really well, but it tended to goop into the hinges, which, since the hatch lids cannot be removed was a *real* pain to try to get out (even though I taped them prodigiously prior to installation).

In a later installation I used butyl tape to bed the tops of the actuator arms on my trim tabs (they are nylon/plastic-type material), and I did it on a warm day with sun-warmed butyl and it went a lot better (but too the arms are not as weak and thin as the hatch flanges, which, if I were designing them would be a lot stronger).

So, just to say that while I don't see anything wrong with using something like 4200 (although if white it will yellow in UV), I also think the butyl tape could work well if it were not cool/stiff. I recently used 3M's 4000 caulk (on the cabin/cockpit drain fitting), which is not supposed to yellow in UV, but I haven't had it on long enough to know if that's going to hold true or not.

Sunbeam

PS: Just don't use silicone and all will be right with the world 8)
 
Although some folks use butyl tape for sealing--generally it is not recommended where there will be any possiblity of water intrusion. Use marine materials. 4000 is about the same characteristics as the 4200, but is non yellowing. I have had it in areas exposed to UV light, and no yellowing over about an 18 month period of time.
 
thataway":11b7ky08 said:
Although some folks use butyl tape for sealing--generally it is not recommended where there will be any possiblity of water intrusion.
Click to expand...

I didn't know this. I think of it as a bedding compound, which I use specifically when there might be water intrusion (around a port or window, base of a piece of hardware, etc.). I've found it to seal very well against water leaks and to stay flexible for a long, long time (i.e. it's still flexible on my camper where it was installed in the 1970's and which has been outdoors).

I have heard that it's not recommended for use beneath the water line*, and I know that it's vulnerable to solvents so, for example, I am going to use polysulfide for bedding my fuel fills. Also, it is not a very strong adhesive compared to things like 4200/5200, so I tend to use it to bed things that are also mechanically fastened.

Sunbeam

*That said, in a thread on a boating forum where the subject was being discussed, a fellow chimed in who is a marine biologist/diver type. He told how they have some sort of submersible sphere that's made in two pieces like a globe split at the equator. These house research equipment that's left deep in the ocean for long periods of time (forget exactly how long, but ~weeks). They put the equipment in the sphere, put the two halves together, and then seal them with a bead/strip of butyl and lower them to research depth. Then when they retrieve them they remove the butyl (which apparently doesn't leak and stays intact) and re-use the sphere for the next time with new butyl. I found this pretty interesting although I would still "officially" say that I have heard that butyl is not recommended for use below the waterline (not that I'm not running a few experiments though :mrgreen:).
 
There are specific areas where you may use butyl tape (incidently some RV techs do not like it unless you have really good compression). Many specific users say not to use underwater--people get away with all sorts of things--that does not mean that this is proper.

As for use in diving--Sunbeam--do you have documentation of what specific butyl material this individual used? There are specific butyl gaskets which are used regularly in diving--but these are under compression between two pieces as you describe. This is an entirely different application than on a boat.

Butyl is fine when under good compression--lets say that you have already potted a hole (Ferret 30, you will find all of the tools and items you referenced in your link in my shop--and most of them have been shown in various links I have posted on doing specific applications--including some not shown in this article) you can use the butyl under compression for bolts on cleats. Both surfaces have to be clean. Dissimilar metals should not be joined with butyl. It is questionable that screws into fiberglass, such as the hatches are sufficient for the butyl--in my opinion. It you thru bolted them--fine. There is no significant adhesive property to the butyl tape.

Back to the epoxy hardeners-- 205 Fast Hardener will have a 9-12 minute Pot Life at 72 degrees. For many of us in higher temps the 206 is a far better hardener and it gives a longer pot life of Pot life at 72°F (22°C): 20 to 25 minutes. Most of us prefer the longer pot life. Again, before starting any epoxy work, please study the excellent guides put out by the West Systems.
 
thataway":2afp0l1u said:
As for use in diving--Sunbeam--do you have documentation of what specific butyl material this individual used?
Click to expand...

I will see if I can find the thread/comment. It was butyl tape that was being discussed, and my recollection is that this is what they were using (i.e. the "common" butyl tape like you'd use to bed boat hardware), but I'll see if I can find more info. At best though, it will be anecdotal, so probably nothing anyone would want to use as "proof" of any product or method.

I hope folks can tell that I'm definitely not in favor of doing "improper" things in boat work. I'm not one to take short cuts, and I'm in favor of using a proper product with appropriate tech specs.

( Just don't use silicone and I'll be happy :wink)
 
thataway":3bqcwfdq said:
Ferret 30, you will find all of the tools and items you referenced in your link in my shop--and most of them have been shown in various links I have posted on doing specific applications--including some not shown in this article)
Click to expand...

Certainly, I didn't mean to say I learned all I used for projects I've done so far from those links -- however I did use them as examples when doing the bow roller. I went with your excellent thread when doing the hatches, and I had a feeling when I did the hatches that they would have a hard time compressing the tape and laying flat. I think it was the first time I used 3M 4XXX (I used 4000 I think).
 
Just as an FYI, the IMTRA hatches worked great and it was an easy project. I would post some pics, but with as many as there are out there, really no point. Bone dry even after pressure washing the boat.

Thank again for everybody's help along the way.
 
Hi C-Brats,

Not trying to add confusion, but I also replaced our lazerette covers a few months ago. I had picked up earlier threads on our site on the problems with the original covers. I ordered Defender part # SPA-40155. The cost each was $74.99 in May 2013 when I placed my order. Placing the order was pretty painless with Defender. I also found my covers leaked like crazy when it rained. My battery switch is located right below the portside lazerette opening. The rain eventually destroyed the battery switch, so I replaced that when I changed out the covers. Since then the lazerette has been bone dry, so hopefully no additional wiring/reliability issues due to the leaky covers. Note-I'm guessing the part number difference (40154 vs 40155) is in regards to the color-ours is a pretty good match-but not perfect-but it is a great improvement in what we had!!

My wife and I are slowly adding pictures to our album from our work this year. We have not yet added the pictures from the lazerette replacement but we'll hopefully get to it shortly.
Regards,
Jack Howell
 
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