Replacing anchor rode and chain
- Thread starter browntdb
- Start date
Comments on shackles: I have anchored thousands of times/nights--boats form 15 feet on up to 62 feet over the years--and never had a shackle fail.
Go up one size from the chain. Try and find HT shackles--if not get the best grade you can. Avoid Chinese and SS shackles--I have seen these fail.
Do not use cast (many Chinese are) shackles.
If you look at the 1/4" Cosby (or any other good high quality Forged shackle you will see that is a working load of 1/2 ton. That is 1000 lbs. With 1/4" chain, you can go to 5/16" Cosby forged with a working load of 3/4 ton--or 1500 lbs. The yield load is going to be 5x or more for a forged shackle. This means that it will be 7500 lbs! No way you are going to even up over 1500 lbs on that C Dory anchor--less in a hurricane--and then the boat better be out of the water and 50 miles inland!
Take it one step further, and see what your anchor will hold. Actually there are not many good tests on the size anchors we use. I have done some tests on the Manson Supreme, and Delta in the 22 to 25 lb size, along with Fortress at 7 and 37 lb size, Danforths at various sizes. Basically the full power of 115 hp would not pull out the Mansom supreme or the Fortress 37. The Fortress 7 was a bit less consistent--but several times held at full power. Getting back to boats. The actual wind load does not get to close to 1000 lbs until you are at 40 plus knots in the C Dory 22.
Another important issue is managing shock loads. The best way is a snubber--I don't do this at Lake Powell, (unless in a storm), but you use a l15 to 20 foot length of 3 strand line, and put it on the main rode with a rolling hitch. It is important to use a snubber for chain. The normal 3 strand or even plait/braid works OK for a snubber on our small boats.
If you really want to get into this, look at this excellent article done by my friend Don Dobbs:
http://northpacificresearch.com/downloads/anchor_load_revealed.pdf
Bottom line, buy the forged 5/16" American brand (HT if possible) and don't worry in the C Dory. If you have a 50 footer with 70 lb Ronca and 3/8 HT chain--different story, for another day!
Go up one size from the chain. Try and find HT shackles--if not get the best grade you can. Avoid Chinese and SS shackles--I have seen these fail.
Do not use cast (many Chinese are) shackles.
If you look at the 1/4" Cosby (or any other good high quality Forged shackle you will see that is a working load of 1/2 ton. That is 1000 lbs. With 1/4" chain, you can go to 5/16" Cosby forged with a working load of 3/4 ton--or 1500 lbs. The yield load is going to be 5x or more for a forged shackle. This means that it will be 7500 lbs! No way you are going to even up over 1500 lbs on that C Dory anchor--less in a hurricane--and then the boat better be out of the water and 50 miles inland!
Take it one step further, and see what your anchor will hold. Actually there are not many good tests on the size anchors we use. I have done some tests on the Manson Supreme, and Delta in the 22 to 25 lb size, along with Fortress at 7 and 37 lb size, Danforths at various sizes. Basically the full power of 115 hp would not pull out the Mansom supreme or the Fortress 37. The Fortress 7 was a bit less consistent--but several times held at full power. Getting back to boats. The actual wind load does not get to close to 1000 lbs until you are at 40 plus knots in the C Dory 22.
Another important issue is managing shock loads. The best way is a snubber--I don't do this at Lake Powell, (unless in a storm), but you use a l15 to 20 foot length of 3 strand line, and put it on the main rode with a rolling hitch. It is important to use a snubber for chain. The normal 3 strand or even plait/braid works OK for a snubber on our small boats.
If you really want to get into this, look at this excellent article done by my friend Don Dobbs:
http://northpacificresearch.com/downloads/anchor_load_revealed.pdf
Bottom line, buy the forged 5/16" American brand (HT if possible) and don't worry in the C Dory. If you have a 50 footer with 70 lb Ronca and 3/8 HT chain--different story, for another day!
I think I'm on a "non clear" roll lately 
So I'll just clarify that I'm not overly worried about the 5/16", U.S. made, non-high-test Crosby red-pin shackles, and I don't necessarily expect the 1500# WLL to be exceeded. That said, it seems like sort of a "weak link," since the 1/4" G4 chain has a WLL of 2600#. So in my own mind, I'd love it if I could find a 5/16" high test shackle with a more commensurate WLL with the chain, since it is no hardship to install one vs. the other.
Since Martin said he had found one, I figured ..... good info to have. Especially since I have one more shackle to buy for my ground tackle. Also, I have a few sailor friends with 1/4" G4 chain who have wanted a high-test shackle to go with it but couldn't find one.
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I've always used a long snubber (~50'), but that was anchoring with all-chain rode. Presuming one already has a fair lead, does one use a snubber if there is 25' of chain and - say - 75' of line out? (I may end up using one anyway to get a fair lead, but I'm just curious if one is desirable if you already have a fair bit of line out anyway.) (Granted you might not have in a very shallow anchorage, and/or you might have more chain aboard.)
Sunbeam
So I'll just clarify that I'm not overly worried about the 5/16", U.S. made, non-high-test Crosby red-pin shackles, and I don't necessarily expect the 1500# WLL to be exceeded. That said, it seems like sort of a "weak link," since the 1/4" G4 chain has a WLL of 2600#. So in my own mind, I'd love it if I could find a 5/16" high test shackle with a more commensurate WLL with the chain, since it is no hardship to install one vs. the other.
Since Martin said he had found one, I figured ..... good info to have. Especially since I have one more shackle to buy for my ground tackle. Also, I have a few sailor friends with 1/4" G4 chain who have wanted a high-test shackle to go with it but couldn't find one.
************
I've always used a long snubber (~50'), but that was anchoring with all-chain rode. Presuming one already has a fair lead, does one use a snubber if there is 25' of chain and - say - 75' of line out? (I may end up using one anyway to get a fair lead, but I'm just curious if one is desirable if you already have a fair bit of line out anyway.) (Granted you might not have in a very shallow anchorage, and/or you might have more chain aboard.)
Sunbeam
bridma":10jt92o8 said:
Well shoot - I didn't want to be right in this case! But...thank you very much for taking the time to check it out and post back :thup You are right in that your dealer is selling "the good stuff." I've always known the Crosby red pin shackles to be high quality.
However, it would be nice if Crosby would make that high test shackle just ooonnee size smaller so it would fit the G4 chain. Granted, the G209 is presumably still fine on our boats; but for folks "using up" more of the WLL of the chain, it would be nice to have the closer match-up of WLL's. With any of the larger sizes of chain, one can fit a high test shackle and keep them closer to each other.
Sunbeam
Yes, there is a reason to use a snubber or two, if there is a rope and chain rode, or any amount of chain. This reason is chafe. In a storm one wants to be able to adjust the point of chafe, and put in more chafing gear if necessary. This is key. Don't know how many hurricanes you have been thru--or hurricane force winds--but there it is key.
The two snubbers allow shifting the point of chafing gear and adding more chafing gear. My favorite chafing gear is fire hose. I was fortunate in that a fire fighter friend gave me 100 feet of 1 1/2" double jacket fire hose. Fire houses do cycle thru their fire hoses as they are used, and they make excellent chafing gear. I usually cut about 2 feet, and put holes in each end about an inch back from the cut. I pass 1/8" dacron line thru this, and tied it around the rode, so the slip is minimal.
50 feet would be more than I have every carried in one piece. Generally I will have a couple of 20 and 30 foot long snubbers on a boat with mostly chain rode (I never have had all chain, because 200 feet is the max I feel is necessary--the rest works well up to 100 feet--with another 400 feet of nylon rode. With "All chain" which is the way it works in most anchorages, you can use a SS Plate, with a slot cut for the chain, and a shackle hole on each side for the snubber.
As for chain size--if you go to Boat US recommendations--which seem reasonable, the 30 foot 11 foot beam power boat recommendation is for a 1400 lb holding storm anchor and 1/4" HT chain. The C Dory 22 would come in just a little over half that holding power necessary--now an anchor bigger is not that bad--but considering the nature of the boats is probably not necessary. Far more important is the type of anchor and how it holds in the specific bottom. The boat we cruised to Europe had working chain of 3/8 HT with a 70# CQR as primary anchor and 70# Danforth as secondary. The Danforth only had 50 feet of chain. Our storm anchor had 1/2" chain, but 50 feet of that weighed 135 lbs--a lot to carry on deck. (along with a e part 150 lb anchor) Fortunately we never had to use the storm anchor which was kept in the bilge, under a hatch, so that the anchor and chain could be hoisted up with a spinnaker halyard and winch. We did not have a chain gypsy for the 1/2" chain--but 400 feet of 1" rode was also hard to handle at about 120 lbs.
The two snubbers allow shifting the point of chafing gear and adding more chafing gear. My favorite chafing gear is fire hose. I was fortunate in that a fire fighter friend gave me 100 feet of 1 1/2" double jacket fire hose. Fire houses do cycle thru their fire hoses as they are used, and they make excellent chafing gear. I usually cut about 2 feet, and put holes in each end about an inch back from the cut. I pass 1/8" dacron line thru this, and tied it around the rode, so the slip is minimal.
50 feet would be more than I have every carried in one piece. Generally I will have a couple of 20 and 30 foot long snubbers on a boat with mostly chain rode (I never have had all chain, because 200 feet is the max I feel is necessary--the rest works well up to 100 feet--with another 400 feet of nylon rode. With "All chain" which is the way it works in most anchorages, you can use a SS Plate, with a slot cut for the chain, and a shackle hole on each side for the snubber.
As for chain size--if you go to Boat US recommendations--which seem reasonable, the 30 foot 11 foot beam power boat recommendation is for a 1400 lb holding storm anchor and 1/4" HT chain. The C Dory 22 would come in just a little over half that holding power necessary--now an anchor bigger is not that bad--but considering the nature of the boats is probably not necessary. Far more important is the type of anchor and how it holds in the specific bottom. The boat we cruised to Europe had working chain of 3/8 HT with a 70# CQR as primary anchor and 70# Danforth as secondary. The Danforth only had 50 feet of chain. Our storm anchor had 1/2" chain, but 50 feet of that weighed 135 lbs--a lot to carry on deck. (along with a e part 150 lb anchor) Fortunately we never had to use the storm anchor which was kept in the bilge, under a hatch, so that the anchor and chain could be hoisted up with a spinnaker halyard and winch. We did not have a chain gypsy for the 1/2" chain--but 400 feet of 1" rode was also hard to handle at about 120 lbs.
browntdb":i9kw4m9r said:
Terry, I too don't use a windless & so at times, when forced to anchor deep have used the buoy ring for faster easier anchor retrieval. The problem that I have had doing this, is the shackle would catch on the retrieval ring causing the anchor & chain to drop right back to the bottom when tension was taken off the rode. To prevent this, the smoother the line connections from rode to chain to anchor the better. Even after 10 years now of anchor retrieval of a 22 lb. anchor & 30 feet of 1/4 inch chain by hand, I still don't feel the need for a windless, but I'm definitely ready to replace the 3/8 three strand with 1/2 inch braid to make it easier on my hands.
Jay
kennharriet
Member
I am an anchor rookie for sure, but would like to hear from experienced folks about the use of the Kellet in anchoring.
http://www.coastalboating.net/Cruising/ ... Facts.html
We met a couple in Princess Lousia Inlet last summer in a 27 ft Sea Sport. They always used a Kellet as an anchoring "force multiplier".
http://www.coastalboating.net/Cruising/ ... Facts.html
We met a couple in Princess Lousia Inlet last summer in a 27 ft Sea Sport. They always used a Kellet as an anchoring "force multiplier".
kennharriet":pl63zjxs said:
Have read many discussions on using a kellet, but have never actually used one.
My take is that having an excellent anchor of an appropriate size and a generous amount of chain is much simpler and works pretty near as well. On our ~11,000 lb 26-footer we had 40 ' of 1/4 HT chain and a 7.5 kg Bruce, which worked very well for many years. When we put together a new setup a couple of years ago we went to about 46' of chain and a 10kg Rocna. Together they make us feel pretty secure in any appropriate anchorage in BC or SE Alaska.
The Kellet is of little if any use in a boat our size. I carried a 30 lb lead Kellet on both of our larger cruising boats (62 and 46 feet LOA). Even though I anchored in winds up to 87 knots documented, there was no need. I had the opportunity to dive on the anchor and all chain when the wind was blowing from 70 to 87 miles an hour. During this time the chain was bar tight--and no kelley would have made any difference. Far more important is the snubber and adequate scope.
Get a good anchor--enough chain, a good rode and you will be fine. The Kellet can cause problems in retrieving the line. It might be of some value with a Bermuda moor, but we dealt with that differently, shackling the two chains together after both anchors were set, and taking one pennant to the bow.
Get a good anchor--enough chain, a good rode and you will be fine. The Kellet can cause problems in retrieving the line. It might be of some value with a Bermuda moor, but we dealt with that differently, shackling the two chains together after both anchors were set, and taking one pennant to the bow.
starcrafttom
Active member
I would ask how much chain they used with the kellet? I have not used one but it seems to me that the two main reasons for using one is angle and damping. By using a kellet you are decreasing the angle of the rode from the anchor to the bow, well really just lengthening the distance before the rode angles up to the bow, which will provide with better holding and setting of the anchor by keeping the anchor at a shallower angle. This is because of the weight of the kellet on the rode. ( if I dont have that right someone will correct me) the damping comes from the boat having to lift that weight up before pulling the rode tight and banging against the anchor. It also decreases the distance you are from the anchor by pulling the rode down at the bow. This was also one of the benefits of more chain on the 27. I installed a larger windlass that I found on craiglist for cheap. Its rated for a 45 Plus foot boat. I think its the 1000 series?? So I use a far larger chain then most. which is a lot heavier then most. Not sure of the size off the top of my head but I could look later. So having 80 ft of chain accomplishes the same goals of a kellet. Is decrease or prolongs the angle of the rode ( I hardly even get in to my rode around here) between the boat and the anchor. I have never dragged in the 27 even in high winds.
One problem I do have in high winds is swinging. One day in English camp we where getting slammed with 40mph wind gust and steady 30 mph. Well this caused the 27 to swing from almost 180 degrees at the stern from a point at the bow. Bow was pointed due east and then would swing until pointed due west. Back and forth for hours. I tried a sea anchor off the stern but that did little. latter I was told that I should have ran my anchor line off a forward side cleat. Would this have stopped the swinging?
One problem I do have in high winds is swinging. One day in English camp we where getting slammed with 40mph wind gust and steady 30 mph. Well this caused the 27 to swing from almost 180 degrees at the stern from a point at the bow. Bow was pointed due east and then would swing until pointed due west. Back and forth for hours. I tried a sea anchor off the stern but that did little. latter I was told that I should have ran my anchor line off a forward side cleat. Would this have stopped the swinging?
Tom,
Sometimes I run a line from my forward cleat (the one just under the window on either side) to the anchor rode and take enough tension to pull it back toward my stern and make a shallow vee in the anchor line. That seems to help with swinging as the pull is to one side rather than straight off the bow. I usually use a rolling hitch for the knot to the anchor line.
Sometimes I run a line from my forward cleat (the one just under the window on either side) to the anchor rode and take enough tension to pull it back toward my stern and make a shallow vee in the anchor line. That seems to help with swinging as the pull is to one side rather than straight off the bow. I usually use a rolling hitch for the knot to the anchor line.
colobear":2olh55sr said:
Ditto. And on the theory that it provides some lateral resistance at the end of the "whip," I keep the engine(s) down when the boat wants to swing. (Empirical evidence of the benefit of lowering the engines has been sketchy, but it makes me feel like I'm doing something.
)Sure like the tip on the cleat to rode line for swing reduction. We too have spent some nights at the end of the whip. It helped some to leave the Mokai in the towed position, but then if the wind changed to erratic the mokai would bang into the side of the boat which was even worse than being whipped.
Jay
Jay
starcrafttom
Active member
I will have to give that a try the next time I am anchored ion the wind.
Boats I've anchored on in the past didn't really have a "sailing" problem at anchor (different style boat), but the same technique (setting yourself up at an angle) can be helpful if there is an annoying swell that's not coming straight at your bow, but instead hitting at an angle and causing discomfort. If you change the angle the way Barry said, you can often set yourself "straight" to the waves and get comfortable again.
Unfortunately the C Dory with flat bottom and no keel does "sail"--I have tried many different methods to stop it-including two anchors--one set at the limit of the "Sail" arc. The various angles with a snubber or spring to the side cleat, even attaching a small second anchor near the chain and rode shackle (which can lead to other complications). The Kellet can drag on the bottom and might cut the swing--but generally it is near the chain--or attached to the chain. My rig had a snatch block which would go over the main rode line, and a secondary light line to lower the Kellet down the rope rode. The other method is to shackle the kellet to the chain. The further the Kellet is from the anchor, the more effective it should be. There does need to be a minimal anchor rode and anchor shank angle. The kellet will help with this in calm weather, but even with a kellet and heavy chain, as the wind approaches 50 knots the chain will be bar tight.
The reason for the 7:1 scope is that it is the optimal angle for setting most anchors. Danforth designed his anchor specifically with a 32 degree angle (same as the Fortress for sand) between the shank and flukes.
The reason for the 7:1 scope is that it is the optimal angle for setting most anchors. Danforth designed his anchor specifically with a 32 degree angle (same as the Fortress for sand) between the shank and flukes.
kennharriet
Member
Terry, Thanks for starting this thread. I learned a great deal once again from all the experience from the group. We are definitely under gunned with only a 5 kg (11lb) Bruce type claw anchor on our 22 for the PNW. We are considering upgrading to the Rocna 22lb or 33lb. Would the 33lb with 25' of 1/4" chain be overkill? The Manson Supreme is also similarly priced and offered in 25lb or 35lb. Would the larger be overkill?
It's great when you all share your wisdom. My wife tells me to go ahead and spend the money on upgrades as long as you all recommend it.
It's great when you all share your wisdom. My wife tells me to go ahead and spend the money on upgrades as long as you all recommend it.
kennharriet":2gb38tuk said:
[Note that I'm writing from the perspective of one who has not yet anchored out on the 22 -- so my "knowledge" comes from reading here plus other boating.]
Coming from bigger boats (not really large; just larger than 22') and having spent many nights on the hook, I believe in good ground tackle. So it was really, really hard for me to not go with a mega-oversized anchor and a large diameter, all-chain rode. I even have a nice 33# Bruce sitting in the boat shed just begging to be used.
But... and it's hard for me to say this... even I think 33# is a bit oversized for the 22. From the reading I've done here (written by folks who have anchored on the 22 quite a bit), a ~22# anchor is the "hefty" size, and a ~15# is still quite adequate. Given that the rest of the ground tackle is properly set up and sized, of course. (And knowing that certain types of bottom, location, or conditions will always present a challenge.)
I went with a 15# Manson Supreme (similar design to a Rocna). I would probably have gone with something more like 22-25# if I had a windlass, but right now I don't. Similarly, I went with 25' of 1/4" chain, but if I had a windlass I might up that to 50' (then move the current rode to the secondary role).
Sunbeam
starcrafttom
Active member
Over kill on a anchor is like bringing to much ammo to a gun fight. Now one has even complained about it afterwards...
But a 25lber should do the job just fine. And like I have said already at least 22 ft of chain.
But a 25lber should do the job just fine. And like I have said already at least 22 ft of chain.