Safety Lesson Close to Home
- Thread starter Pat Anderson
- Start date
Captains Cat
New member
Wow, they are truly lucky! Maybe I missed it Pat but what kind of boat did they have, must've been pretty big.
Charlie
Charlie
Pat,
there is a picture here
http://www.pnwlocalnews.com/whidbey/wnt/news/
I guess they went inside the infamous outer marker which always seems to be about 1 mile too far out.
Lucky.
Merv
there is a picture here
http://www.pnwlocalnews.com/whidbey/wnt/news/
I guess they went inside the infamous outer marker which always seems to be about 1 mile too far out.
Lucky.
Merv
1TUBERIDER
New member
Lucky to be back on the hard. Water temps here are around 54 which gets cold quickly but survival could be a couple of hours.
35 knts of wind even in inland waters still has significant effects. The only thing you don't get is the large open ocean swells with greater spacing but the junk between them is pretty much the same. Short and steep and going the wrong direction only makes it worse. Our fishing fleet may get caught out in the 35 knt stuff but they rarely knowingly go out into it. These are usually bigger boats than the 38 footer that sunk.
No radio, engines not performing right, navigation down, sounds like a good time to stay in port and fix things.
Local knowledge may trump electronics but most of the hazards are charted and I feel better knowing those hazards are well away from my course. A good set of paper charts as a backup and possibly a backup handheld gps could have been helpful. A handheld vhf would have also been a nice backup.
38 foot boats have lots of room, lots of capability, but when it comes to mother nature we still need to respect her and sometimes wait it out.
With our 10 day salmon season we had the small boats going out Saturday with the southerlies and forecast 10 ft swell. Wind was only forecast to be around 15 knots but guess what it came up to around 30 knts. I was thinking that I hope the boaters came in before the wind but when I cruised the parking lot there were still 10 rigs out. Fishn fools will do anything when they have been deprived. But many of these fisherman may have higher limits for the junk and be quite comfortable in it. They also know their limits and head in when it gets there. Sunday the swell was close to 12 ft. Lots of boats still went out. Wind was 10 knts so not to bad. I ended up surfing the point in the 10 ft stuff, had a ball and a good day. Monday I went out in the boat, still 8 to 10 ft. No problems, caught my salmon and when I came in it was blowing around 15 to 20.
The boaters should have never left port until the boat was ready and the weather became doable.
35 knts of wind even in inland waters still has significant effects. The only thing you don't get is the large open ocean swells with greater spacing but the junk between them is pretty much the same. Short and steep and going the wrong direction only makes it worse. Our fishing fleet may get caught out in the 35 knt stuff but they rarely knowingly go out into it. These are usually bigger boats than the 38 footer that sunk.
No radio, engines not performing right, navigation down, sounds like a good time to stay in port and fix things.
Local knowledge may trump electronics but most of the hazards are charted and I feel better knowing those hazards are well away from my course. A good set of paper charts as a backup and possibly a backup handheld gps could have been helpful. A handheld vhf would have also been a nice backup.
38 foot boats have lots of room, lots of capability, but when it comes to mother nature we still need to respect her and sometimes wait it out.
With our 10 day salmon season we had the small boats going out Saturday with the southerlies and forecast 10 ft swell. Wind was only forecast to be around 15 knots but guess what it came up to around 30 knts. I was thinking that I hope the boaters came in before the wind but when I cruised the parking lot there were still 10 rigs out. Fishn fools will do anything when they have been deprived. But many of these fisherman may have higher limits for the junk and be quite comfortable in it. They also know their limits and head in when it gets there. Sunday the swell was close to 12 ft. Lots of boats still went out. Wind was 10 knts so not to bad. I ended up surfing the point in the 10 ft stuff, had a ball and a good day. Monday I went out in the boat, still 8 to 10 ft. No problems, caught my salmon and when I came in it was blowing around 15 to 20.
The boaters should have never left port until the boat was ready and the weather became doable.
Pat,
In my opinion they,
(1) should not have bought the Bayliner
(2) maybe a have had a back hand held radio (70 dollars) instead of the Coach purse
(3) maybe a back up GPS instead of just the laptop
(4) prepared a ditch bag with some of the above
(5) subscribe to sirius weather or had radar, man those Coach purses are expensive.
D.D. (unknown comic)
In my opinion they,
(1) should not have bought the Bayliner
(2) maybe a have had a back hand held radio (70 dollars) instead of the Coach purse
(3) maybe a back up GPS instead of just the laptop
(4) prepared a ditch bag with some of the above
(5) subscribe to sirius weather or had radar, man those Coach purses are expensive.
D.D. (unknown comic)
Matt Gurnsey
New member
38 Bayliner Motoryacht.
The scenerio as described brings up one of the reasons I prefer mounted GPS Chartplotters over Laptop based software. With a mounted Chartplotter, he would have had a workable chart, instead of losing his only source of navigation when it fell from it's "perch".
On a boat of that size, there is absolutely no reason not to have hanhelp GPS and VHF as back ups. Heck, thee two items should be part of any ditch bag.
Lessons to be learned here.
The scenerio as described brings up one of the reasons I prefer mounted GPS Chartplotters over Laptop based software. With a mounted Chartplotter, he would have had a workable chart, instead of losing his only source of navigation when it fell from it's "perch".
On a boat of that size, there is absolutely no reason not to have hanhelp GPS and VHF as back ups. Heck, thee two items should be part of any ditch bag.
Lessons to be learned here.
We just launched from the same dock that this boat is partially occupying.
At high tide you can see the captains chair mounted on the roof :shock: , the cabin roof itself and not much else except lots of very expensive oil spill containment and people walking around and "inspecting".
Apparently they are going to try to recover it today. Presumably they will wait until the tide goes out then lift it onto a flatbed.
If I get bored I will go up there and try to see just how big the hole is.
Merv
At high tide you can see the captains chair mounted on the roof :shock: , the cabin roof itself and not much else except lots of very expensive oil spill containment and people walking around and "inspecting".
Apparently they are going to try to recover it today. Presumably they will wait until the tide goes out then lift it onto a flatbed.
If I get bored I will go up there and try to see just how big the hole is.
Merv
What a story--and lucky to have survived without any real damage to their selves. A lot of that was due to their friends proximity. I agree that a handheld VHF radio, would have helped, that a small GPS with cartography, would have also helped. But even then, the 35 knots of wind, there, along with the currents can give some mightly steep seas.
It is very hard to second guess any situation like this--and they survived.
I like to have a "ditch" bag waterproof, with the vhf radio. gPS, signals, mirror, Personal locator beacon (if not worn) and some other essentials with me at all times.
I agree, I have never liked the lap top idea for navigation--chart plotters are just more rugged--and secure. (I have used laptop navigation in the past)
It is very hard to second guess any situation like this--and they survived.
I like to have a "ditch" bag waterproof, with the vhf radio. gPS, signals, mirror, Personal locator beacon (if not worn) and some other essentials with me at all times.
I agree, I have never liked the lap top idea for navigation--chart plotters are just more rugged--and secure. (I have used laptop navigation in the past)
If you look at this chart;
http://www.charts.noaa.gov/OnLineViewer/18428.shtml
Check out how far "R2" is off Maylor Point. From the ocean it looks an impossible distance and it is not easy to spot because it is intuitively not where you would expect it.
Add the fact that you CAN pass safely inside it IF you know where you are.
Given foul weather and the absence of a GPS, prudence would drive me much farther West before turning into Oak Harbor.
Every time I take a visitor past this buoy I always point it out to them and warn them that it is one that you must spot before entering.
We scrubbed a fishing trip on a Hatteras 40 that day because we listened to the weather forcast. It hit 40 Kts at Smith Island which is just over the hill from where this guy sank and continued for most of Sunday.
He would have been better going to La Conner or Cornet Bay.
We will be leaving from Oak Harbor in the morning so if they get it out today I may get a photo or two.
Merv
http://www.charts.noaa.gov/OnLineViewer/18428.shtml
Check out how far "R2" is off Maylor Point. From the ocean it looks an impossible distance and it is not easy to spot because it is intuitively not where you would expect it.
Add the fact that you CAN pass safely inside it IF you know where you are.
Given foul weather and the absence of a GPS, prudence would drive me much farther West before turning into Oak Harbor.
Every time I take a visitor past this buoy I always point it out to them and warn them that it is one that you must spot before entering.
We scrubbed a fishing trip on a Hatteras 40 that day because we listened to the weather forcast. It hit 40 Kts at Smith Island which is just over the hill from where this guy sank and continued for most of Sunday.
He would have been better going to La Conner or Cornet Bay.
We will be leaving from Oak Harbor in the morning so if they get it out today I may get a photo or two.
Merv
Nice reference Merv.
Yes, our biggest test in the fog was 4 years ago when we got caught in the fog in Saratoga Passage and chose Oak Harbor to take refuge. Luckily I just installed a 2nd GPS so we had one zoomed in with the other zoomed out. In that way, we were able to negotiate the winding couse blindly in the fog and the dark with our GPS's following the markers. I'm sure glad we didn't cut inside R"2"! It was a really good test for us and really convinced me of the value of having redundant equipment on board.
Yes, our biggest test in the fog was 4 years ago when we got caught in the fog in Saratoga Passage and chose Oak Harbor to take refuge. Luckily I just installed a 2nd GPS so we had one zoomed in with the other zoomed out. In that way, we were able to negotiate the winding couse blindly in the fog and the dark with our GPS's following the markers. I'm sure glad we didn't cut inside R"2"! It was a really good test for us and really convinced me of the value of having redundant equipment on board.
Peter,
Me too. I have 2 GPS and paper ready at all times.
If you have ever gone into Oak Harbor (and many other places) on a -4 tide you would realize just how wrong (out of date) the charts are. I make a point of keeping a GPS track of a recent low tide passage so that when I get pushed to the side by a Sprayliner doing 20 Kts I know where I can go safely.
On the last -4 I watched a full keel sailboat going past my slip and I could see where his prop was ploughing the mud!! and I am on E dock. 1/2 the boats in the harbor were sitting in the mud.
Actually there is plenty of water except for a couple of tight spots. Just remember that floating Buoys tend to wander with the wind and current but fixed ones do not
We make a game out of who can get the first "visual" on R2 every time we come back and even with the GPS to help it is not easy. The Green over on Polnell point is another one where you suddenly see gulls walking unless you are paying attention.
In crab season the area inside R2 is covered with pots and lots of boats with in-built "local knowledge" which can also be confusing to visitors.
Mustn't gloat. It happens to all of us.
Merv
Me too. I have 2 GPS and paper ready at all times.
If you have ever gone into Oak Harbor (and many other places) on a -4 tide you would realize just how wrong (out of date) the charts are. I make a point of keeping a GPS track of a recent low tide passage so that when I get pushed to the side by a Sprayliner doing 20 Kts I know where I can go safely.
On the last -4 I watched a full keel sailboat going past my slip and I could see where his prop was ploughing the mud!! and I am on E dock. 1/2 the boats in the harbor were sitting in the mud.
Actually there is plenty of water except for a couple of tight spots. Just remember that floating Buoys tend to wander with the wind and current but fixed ones do not
We make a game out of who can get the first "visual" on R2 every time we come back and even with the GPS to help it is not easy. The Green over on Polnell point is another one where you suddenly see gulls walking unless you are paying attention.
In crab season the area inside R2 is covered with pots and lots of boats with in-built "local knowledge" which can also be confusing to visitors.
Mustn't gloat. It happens to all of us.
Merv
T.R. Bauer
New member
The whole thing is astounding......Some gear is a necessity and not an option. In my opinion, having a gps (or two) onboard is paramount, as is having a couple of mounted radios (I have two), two pumps, a square bucket just in case, charts of the area, guns and ammo just in case you get stranded in the middle of PWS in November and need some fresh deer, and an assortment of other really important stuff that I won't go into. Granted I go really remote places, maybe you really don't need what I bring up here down there.
But really, how in the world one can even consider leaving in a boat where there is a question of its running ability is something else. Call me chicken, over-cautious, or anal retentive, but I will not leave when it may be unsafe to do so. This includes the condition of the boat, its upkeep, and the condition of the crew. I am sorry that these compound decisions lead up to the loss of their boat, but the ocean is a really scary place when it decides to rear its ugly head and they are fortunate to escape with their lives. Hopefully, their lesson can be our lesson.
But really, how in the world one can even consider leaving in a boat where there is a question of its running ability is something else. Call me chicken, over-cautious, or anal retentive, but I will not leave when it may be unsafe to do so. This includes the condition of the boat, its upkeep, and the condition of the crew. I am sorry that these compound decisions lead up to the loss of their boat, but the ocean is a really scary place when it decides to rear its ugly head and they are fortunate to escape with their lives. Hopefully, their lesson can be our lesson.
Just for fun, lets see if we can catalog all of the decision points where a prudent mariner might have stopped or at least done some very serious soul searching before deciding if the visit to San Juan island was that important. Just keep this open how about a rule where nobody gets to add more than one?
Point 1. Radio can transmit but not receive. Thus no effective communications. No evidence of a handheld or other backup so I would probably have shut down.
Who's up next?
Point 1. Radio can transmit but not receive. Thus no effective communications. No evidence of a handheld or other backup so I would probably have shut down.
Who's up next?
Hi Folks,
This is in a way a classic boat tale. If they had a Course in Boating Safety, and listened to their instructors, this would never had happen.
1. Listen and respect weather reports. If they had, they would never have started.
2. Good reason why people should wear life jackets. When s..t happens it often happens quickly.
3. Proper maintenance is important for safe boating. A radio going, problem with engine etc. is usually poor maintenance, especially multiple problems.
4. Know your boat. Understand that very often things are related. One thing leads to another.
5. Cold water leads to hypothemia. If their friends were not there, the cold water would have taken them.
Question, how often do we push our luck and not listen to weather, maintenance problems etc? I know I have "pushed the envelope." We all have.
In closing, one of the many things I have learned as a Coxswain in the USCGAux is how the Coast Guard takes everything seriously. Before going out on a patrol, we fill out a GAR REPORT. GAR stands for GREEN(go), AMBER(check with the Chief of Sation before going), and RED(no patrol). It includes the experience of crew and coxswain, condition of boat, weather and sea conditions, complexity of patrol, etc. Each is rated with a number. Add up the numbers and get your GAR number.
On one start of a patrol, the engine was having trouble starting. I cancelled the patrol. No questions. As a coxswain, I don't need to have the Coast Guard come out and tow me in, when it should not happen.
I feel that short of a speed boat running in to me, if I have to call the Coast Guard, I screwed up some where.
Thanks Pat for the story.
Fred
This is in a way a classic boat tale. If they had a Course in Boating Safety, and listened to their instructors, this would never had happen.
1. Listen and respect weather reports. If they had, they would never have started.
2. Good reason why people should wear life jackets. When s..t happens it often happens quickly.
3. Proper maintenance is important for safe boating. A radio going, problem with engine etc. is usually poor maintenance, especially multiple problems.
4. Know your boat. Understand that very often things are related. One thing leads to another.
5. Cold water leads to hypothemia. If their friends were not there, the cold water would have taken them.
Question, how often do we push our luck and not listen to weather, maintenance problems etc? I know I have "pushed the envelope." We all have.
In closing, one of the many things I have learned as a Coxswain in the USCGAux is how the Coast Guard takes everything seriously. Before going out on a patrol, we fill out a GAR REPORT. GAR stands for GREEN(go), AMBER(check with the Chief of Sation before going), and RED(no patrol). It includes the experience of crew and coxswain, condition of boat, weather and sea conditions, complexity of patrol, etc. Each is rated with a number. Add up the numbers and get your GAR number.
On one start of a patrol, the engine was having trouble starting. I cancelled the patrol. No questions. As a coxswain, I don't need to have the Coast Guard come out and tow me in, when it should not happen.
I feel that short of a speed boat running in to me, if I have to call the Coast Guard, I screwed up some where.
Thanks Pat for the story.
Fred
Pat Anderson
New member
Robbi - thanks for the link to BoaterEd.com, had not seen that before. That looks like a great site.
I will at the very least pass my sympathies on to Joe Givens, the owner of the 38 foot Bayliner.
Dave Deem - #1 - "Don't buy a Bayliner" - I like it!
I will at the very least pass my sympathies on to Joe Givens, the owner of the 38 foot Bayliner.
Dave Deem - #1 - "Don't buy a Bayliner" - I like it!
Merv,
My backyard! And much deja vu... years ago as I was going into OH to gas up I saw a 30+ foot yacht on the wrong side... I called on 16 "White yacht proceeding in to to Oak Harbor north of buoy #... you are standing into danger. This is an emergency."
Minute or two later he was high and dry on the rocks. He spent about 2 weeks at Catalina for repairs -- props, shafts, rudders, etc. Plenty of etc. I spent a lot of coffee time with the owner -- and he had heard me, but didn't know I was talking to him. I've often wondered what else I could have done to stop him. And you are right, easy to go that way with local knowledge.
And y'all are right -- to go into a strange port in the existing conditions just not too smart. Happy they made it okay, and sad that I know it will happen again -- probably soon. After 27 hours from Ucleulet to Deception Pass in the fog -- on a Honda kicker and no battery, I'm not going anywhere without paper charts aboard.
Dusty
My backyard! And much deja vu... years ago as I was going into OH to gas up I saw a 30+ foot yacht on the wrong side... I called on 16 "White yacht proceeding in to to Oak Harbor north of buoy #... you are standing into danger. This is an emergency."
Minute or two later he was high and dry on the rocks. He spent about 2 weeks at Catalina for repairs -- props, shafts, rudders, etc. Plenty of etc. I spent a lot of coffee time with the owner -- and he had heard me, but didn't know I was talking to him. I've often wondered what else I could have done to stop him. And you are right, easy to go that way with local knowledge.
And y'all are right -- to go into a strange port in the existing conditions just not too smart. Happy they made it okay, and sad that I know it will happen again -- probably soon. After 27 hours from Ucleulet to Deception Pass in the fog -- on a Honda kicker and no battery, I'm not going anywhere without paper charts aboard.
Dusty
Anita Marie
New member
Robbin and I saw the boat this evening and posted photos on my Facebook account. http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=3 ... 0187214124
(Edit by Da Nag - pics also here)
When the boat hit the rock it drove the shaft strut through the bottom of the hull and knocked the engine off its motor mounts. The boat sank so fast the air pressure blew it apart at the seams and completely detached the top deck.
The boat's name, Never Satisfied, seems nearly as ironic as the name of the boat she was following, Captain Impatient. The prop in the Facebook album is off the Captain Imaptient.
You can't make this stuff up, but you sure can learn from it.
(Edit by Da Nag - pics also here)
When the boat hit the rock it drove the shaft strut through the bottom of the hull and knocked the engine off its motor mounts. The boat sank so fast the air pressure blew it apart at the seams and completely detached the top deck.
The boat's name, Never Satisfied, seems nearly as ironic as the name of the boat she was following, Captain Impatient. The prop in the Facebook album is off the Captain Imaptient.
You can't make this stuff up, but you sure can learn from it.