Scupper Check Valves on CD-25

B

Bill.Secure

New member
About two hours after a heavy rainstorm, I went down to the boat to affirm things were OK. I was rather surprised that there was still almost two inches of water in the cockpit up against the transom. This spoke well for the reduction in leakage into the bilge but very poorly about scupper drainage.

I decided to experiment a bit so today I removed the check valves with the intent of replacing them with 1 1/8" barbed connectors. Not being able to find connectors, I decided to re-gasket the check valves with rubber gasket stock leaving out the actual flapper which is part of the original gasket material. After I opened the first valve I noticed a notch on the outside circumference of the gasket above the flapper hinge.

Then it hit me... are the the check valves (for a roughly horizontal installation) supposed to be installed with the flapper hinge up? It makes sense, because if the hinge is down water flow through the valve will be impeded. If the hinge is up, the flap is down and water can flow past the flap more readily. Given that the notch was probably a cue to installers to install the valve notch up for "almost horizontal" installations , it only remained to pop down to the local boating store to see one of these valves in its original packaging and have the directions confirm the hypothesis.

The valves were there, directions did not exist, and the notch in the gasket material has been eliminated.

For the moment I'm going to see what happens without having a check valve in the scupper drain. My scuppers drain out the sides, not the transom as some of the earlier CD-25s did, so my options are limited. I can easily reinstall the old gaskets with the built in flapper if it make sense to do so.

The theory that the rotational orientation of the check valves makes a difference is also supported by comments I've seen on another thread about the drain rates for port and starboard scuppers being different. Draining will be fastest with the hinge up and flap down; slowest with the hinge down and flap up. The factory installers may have been unaware of the impact of rotational orientation.

A final note, since the folks at the boating store had been helpful on some related recent issues, I passed this information on to them while I was there. Three fairly knowledgeable staff members and a customer were all surprised because they always assumed these check valves would be installed vertically, where rotational orientation would make no difference.


Bill
Edgewater, MD
 
Very interesting--I have been having a "discussion" with both a repair person and a CD 25 owner who has these valves. We all feel that the check valves restrict the flow of water out of the cockpit. (My boat is the older one with just the transom drains). I assumed that there was an orientation of the valves: yes, you want the attatchement of the flapper at the top. However, I am not really impressed with check valves in scuppers--Your experience confirms this. I have't had a problem with the Tom Cat (don't even know if it has check valves--I'll have to look, because it drains well, and there is no opening to the bilge from the cockpit floor. (Fish boxes don't count--they have macerator pumps installed)
 
The factory installed in-line check valves when I complained about the in-flow of water through the scuppers at various times. To say that they impeded water drainage out of the boat would be an understatement. I took them both off and they're free to anyone who wants to experiment with them. An atta-boy to the factory for putting them in, and an aw-shucks for the way they worked.

Does anyone know of a in-line ball type of check valve? The ones I've found are only used directly on the hull, with no hose inlet.

The southern Boris
 
David Pascoe suggests that cockpit scuppers be 4" above the water line. There are several problems with the 25 with the side drains--if the water does not drain, it is possiable that water will get into the deck hatches and flood the bilge. In the older boats which go out the transom, one still has to have the boat at an angle (on the trailer or in the water) where the water drains aft. The plastic hatches in these boats are also not water tight. If you have the hatches, and they are bedded with silicone, check the bedding, and the deck screws--look for core problems. The best caulk is probably Boat Life, Sife Seal--a blend of silicone and polysulfide designed for plastic hatches. Silicone alone is not reliable enough unless it is in a compressive state (the screws keep positive pressure on the silicone and prevents water from getting around the edges.
 
Bill,
When my 2006 CD25 was delivered last year, I noticed that the drains were pretty ineffective. I could spray water from a hose directly into the drain and water would dribble out. I complained to my dealer and the factory and they sent me all the hardware for larger (1-1/2") scuppers. They also arranged for installations of these. (I believe that not long after 1-1/2" scuppers were standard on new CD25s). Sea Skipper had installed these in 2005 and has a good photo showing the orientation 'flat' on the check valve. I verified the flat was the hinge on the gasket and tested these before they were installed. They seem to work well during testing and also in actual use.

Do your valves has the orientation 'flat' surface that faces up?
 
My check valves are round with no flat side. In terms of size, the exterior is 1 1/8. However, because a portion of the "pipe" exiting the cockpit is blocked by design, the actual hole is probably more like 3/4 of an inch.

I definitely do not have 1.5 inch scuppers, but it may be I need to approach the factory about upgrading. I'm assuming the upgrade does the complete scupper system, the cockpit exit, new hoses, larger check valves, and larger through hulls.

If possible, I'd like to see if I can stay away from check valves, particularly the smaller ones even if the scuppers are enlarged. My concern is that a combination of heavy rain and blowing leaves could leave me vulnerable to the cockpit getting completely flooded right at the dock. My gut feel is that this is a far greater risk than water coming into the cockpit via the scuppers themselves.

Bill
Edgewater, MD
 
Are there any photos of these various arrangements?

For those of us w/o a 25 or TC, it's kind of hard to follow this discussion w/o some visual references.

Thanks.

Joe.
 
Here ya go Joe. :photo Some photos
Starboard_hatches_and_drain.thumb.jpgthe evil one. It won't drain
Starboard_drain_after_check_valve.thumb.jpg Starboard side plumbing. 1 1/2" fall from top of scupper to top of drain.
Starboard_Scupper.thumb.jpg Starboard drain less than one inch from water line when boat is neutral in water
Port_drain.thumb.jpg Port side. now she worka goood
Port_Scupper_001.thumb.jpg Port side drain almost 2" from water line
It takes 200 lbs in the cockpit on the port side to get the boat level in the water. :arrow:
cockpit_floor_on_06_model_25.thumb.jpg Here is a look see of the cockpit floor (with no rug :( )
 
Bill.Secure":dnlhwugi said:
I definitely do not have 1.5 inch scuppers, but it may be I need to approach the factory about upgrading. I'm assuming the upgrade does the complete scupper system, the cockpit exit, new hoses, larger check valves, and larger through hulls.
Click to expand...

Bill,
My upgrade included all the necessary parts (provided by my dealer- Les). The labor was arranged by the factory.
 
We went out today with the rubber check valves replaced with just gasketing material to keep the check valve plastic housings watertight. Waves were about three feet.

Without check valves, no water entered the cockpit in perhaps four hours of travel. I kept altering the position of the boat relative to the wind to see if water would enter the cockpit through the scuppers. At no time was the cockpit even wet, and the inside of the cockpit drain was dry to touch.

I'm not quite sure where I'll go from here. I still think I'll see if I can get the upgrade to the larger scuppers. I'm thinking I may prefer to run without check valves and just have plugs to stick into the cockpit drains in the event I really need something to prevent water from entering.

Bill
Edgewater, MD
 
I don't have check valves because my transom area is completely open not closed like the newer models. It came with the rubber flappers from the factory, I replaced them one for one with the ping pong ball type, no problems since. Good luck, sounds like you're on the right track.
 
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