Self bailing cockpits

L

Lollygaggin

New member
Another question from a wannabe, or a soon to be; Self bailing cockpit is important to me, do all C-Dories have this feature? Please feel free to talk me out of the need too. We have experienced water coming in over the stern before and the self bailing feature probably saved us. We don't actually seek heavy weather like that but some times stuff happens.

Also, the cored hulls are new to me; I have heard mentions to steer clear of them (as in a local brand), but no concrete evidence to support that advice.

We'll be checking C-Dory out at the Seattle and Vancouver boat shows in the new year and will probably end up looking for a previously loved 25 footer. (the Admiral is still sort of stuck in the "Sea Ray cruiser" mode and it's gonna take sum gentle persuasion and seed planting to make this a unanimous decision :mrgreen: ). Any and all help, advice, and criticism is appreciated.
 
At least the 2005 and later 25s do have a bailing cockpit but getting water over the side would be a challenge. We used ours in some wife crying conditions and that was not a concern.

They are largely but not entirely cored with foam or balsa depending on the build year but that is preferable and just something to check the health of when shopping. Other owners will add more details.

My wife was very Bayliner/Searay oriented when we started boat shopping and she still likes them a bit but C-dories are in a whole other league. This group is also a huge selling point. It sounds like there will be one boat at the show in Seattle but I would also advise you to attend the Seattle boat show gathering to connect with owners and see more examples.

Our previous 25 cruiser is for sale in Nanaimo right now and might be an option for you. I still have lots of pics of that boat.

Greg
 
Welcome aboard. Cored hulls are common and the c dory is remarkably stiff and light as a result of the cored construction and lap strake style sides. Not flat panels. These boats go up in waves, you're not going to see water coming over the side or back unless you take the boat surfing big shore break. We have good splashwells and big bilge pumps
We've seen close period Georgia Strait and Queen Charlotte strait, wind driven seas to 7plus feet, and not had water other than some spray. You go around breaking crests, power and steer baby, power and steer.
Carolyn was wondering where the other boats were. Not tough enough to be here I told here. Remember early cd's were meant for Alaska commercial fishing, some still do.
Sea Rays are fine. These are way different. On the coast the Sea Rays all have their sun bridges covered with a sunbrella "pilothouse" (think 8-10 K worth) as we get 4 days of sun in July and up to 8 days in August ( grin) and the rest is moist. They're mostly not useable many days. Talked with several owners unhappy with spray coming in over the windshield in moderately poor weather. The cd pilothouse is a BC boat. Great protection and lots of opening windows. Beachable, shallow draft, go 200 miles on 50 gallons, (sea rays not quite so good mileage, won't go into I/O issues). get a great owners group, tough cute boat, can't go wrong. Get a cd and a floating sun pad to tie alongside.
We see these more now. Have fun. George
 
The bottoms and transoms are cored--as are parts of the cabin top, deck and several bulkheads. The hull sides are not cored in any of the boats to my knowledge.

If a core is well sealed, and no water intrusion, then no problem. There have been some issues, but for the most part they are minimal--maybe less than several percent. Almost all boats have decks which are cored--same with transoms. Delamination of the C Dory line hulls is extremely rare.

We rand downwind/seas in Johstone Straight in full galel conditions--seas at least 10-12 feet and breakingin the C Dory 25, we owned, and no issue with water over the side or transom.

The cabin in the Sea Ray is going to be like living in a cave in an express cruiser. No way to see outside--not all that good protection in the cockpit--again in an express cruiser. The V bottom hulls are going to use a lot more fuel. I had a 27 foot 300 hp Rinker before I bought the Tom Cat. The express got 1.6 miles per gallon--the Tom Cat over 2.0. The C Dory 25, averaged over twice the mileage of the express.
 
My opinion on those 2 questions.

First, the C-Dory 25 has 2 overboard drains in the cockpit. That does not make them self bailing, because they drain very very slowly. In addition, put a load back there and the overboard ports are below the waterline. We carry plugs on Journey On that we use.

What does work is that there is a good bilge pump, just below the cockpit sole, which pumps out any water that gets below . And the cockpit stays dry in following seas, in side chop, etc. Never had any ocean water enter the cockpit.

Second, I'll bet there isn't a production boat that doesn't use core, balsa or plastic. Core is used to separate the fiberglass skins to give the hull or any structure stiffness and strength with minimum weight. If you think of an I beam, the 2 flanges carry the load and the web separates and supports the flanges. It's the separation of those flanges that gives an I beam it's strength. Without core, any boat would be heavier and not as strong. C-Dory uses balsa core in the hull and cabin with structural foam in the stern to support the motor. There are a lot of good reasons to use balsa core as opposed to plastics. One of the great features of a C-Dory is that it's light and core ensures that it's light and strong.

Boris
 
On my 22 there can be some water (but very little) that comes aboard from wind driven spray if conditions are just so. The water accumulation is very low, but sometimes the spray is annoying to people sitting outside when cruising at speed.

In my case more water accumulates in the cockpit from rain. On rainy nights we can sometimes hear the bilge pump come on to dump the rain water in the sump. A bimini or camper back can help limit the water accumulation in the cockpit from rain.

General speaking the 22 cockpit remains very dry. The cabin and closed bow do a good job of keeping the water out of the cockpit. Unless you are in significant following breaking seas I doubt there is much chance of accumulating much water in the boat.
 
We have rarely relied on the scuppers when using the boat. There is rarely any amount of significant water in the cockpit. The only time we saw large amounts of water in the cockpit was when I told the wife to back down, into waves, due to a tangled shrimp pot; water level nearly entered the cabin, over the door threshold, but didn't. The scuppers and bilge pump took care of the water in a few minutes and we continued shrimping. You should have seen the look on her face when she looked back and saw me standing in 4" of water! :wink: :lol:

Other than that it's primarily rinsing down the cockpit after fishing or crabbing etc or at the end of the day.
 
Lollygaggin":1kdjjwj7 said:
Self bailing cockpit is important to me, do all C-Dories have this feature?
Click to expand...

No, not all of them have it. I know the 22 doesn't, and I don't believe the 16 or 19 do either. The 25 has a self-bailing design, although as mentioned above, I'm not sure it always stays that way with a load. I would think the cat designs would but have not been aboard one. I also don't know about the more unusual designs (26, 27).

At first the idea of a non-self-bailing cockpit in the 22 seemed weird to me - just because I was used to them in many sailboats. However I have heard of virtually no problems (I read that a 22 sank when, if I remember correctly, it was caught/anchored stern to some large swells). I think the 22 cockpit would be a bit scary if it were self-bailing as the sole would be really high and hence no real security for occupants - the gunwales would be around your shins just about.

I haven't had my 22 out in anything dramatic, but quite a few folks have put them to the test (repeatedly) and they seem to pass with flying colors. (With sensible seamanship.)

Welcome to the group!

Sunbeam
 
Self bailing is difficult to do well in a boat less than about 30'. Yes, I know there are many boats with self bailing cockpits in the 25' (or even smaller) range but in general, the rate of such self bailing cockpits clearing the water is quite slow. The basic problem is that the distance from the deck to the waterline is not that large in smaller, self-bailing boats. This is due mostly to aesthetics - e.g. if one puts the deck up high enough off the water to get a good drop, then the sides or railings of the boats have to be raised to keep the passengers safely inside and the boat looks relatively ugly from the outside with such high sides or rails. Also, fishermen tend to like to be relatively close to the water when landing fish and that's somewhat in conflict with an efficient, self-bailing deck.

The tomcat deck is self bailing and water will drain out under normal circumstances. However, the rate of draining is relatively slow. You can increase the rate by getting on the throttle to pop the rear end higher out of the water but it's still not a rapid way to empty a large amount of water out. Worse yet, like all such boats, a large amount of water in the cockpit makes the boat sit lower in the water, lessens the distance that water drops and further slows the rate water leaving (note - even when the outlets are below water the deck can still be above the water line and drain, albeit slowly). The same thing is true to a greater or lesser extent in essentially all boats of this size. The typical drop from the deck to the water line is about 6" in self bailing cockpits in boats in the 25' range. Once you get into the 30-35' range a drop of 12"-24" or more is doable and that helps a lot in terms of the self bailing capacity.
 
rogerbum":w79pd8u8 said:
Self bailing is difficult to do well in a boat less than about 30'. Yes, I know there are many boats with self bailing cockpits in the 25' (or even smaller) range but in general, the rate of such self bailing cockpits clearing the water is quite slow. The basic problem is that the distance from the deck to the waterline is not that large in smaller, self-bailing boats. This is due mostly to aesthetics - e.g. if one puts the deck up high enough off the water to get a good drop, then the sides or railings of the boats have to be raised to keep the passengers safely inside and the boat looks relatively ugly from the outside with such high sides or rails. Also, fishermen tend to like to be relatively close to the water when landing fish and that's somewhat in conflict with an efficient, self-bailing deck.

The tomcat deck is self bailing and water will drain out under normal circumstances. However, the rate of draining is relatively slow. You can increase the rate by getting on the throttle to pop the rear end higher out of the water but it's still not a rapid way to empty a large amount of water out. Worse yet, like all such boats, a large amount of water in the cockpit makes the boat sit lower in the water, lessens the distance that water drops and further slows the rate water leaving (note - even when the outlets are below water the deck can still be above the water line and drain, albeit slowly). The same thing is true to a greater or lesser extent in essentially all boats of this size. The typical drop from the deck to the water line is about 6" in self bailing cockpits in boats in the 25' range. Once you get into the 30-35' range a drop of 12"-24" or more is doable and that helps a lot in terms of the self bailing capacity.
Click to expand...
Roger- you have a wealth of good information you share here. However, there is one small point I would add to your excellent report above.
Generally speaking as the deck, cabin and height of the gunnels are raised to accommodate a self-baling design the centre of gravity goes up accordingly, this reduces the righting arm which, as you know, is never a good thing in a small boat.
To digress--on ocean going ships, with heavy deck loads, which raises the centre of gravity (seamen call it a tender ship) its very uncomfortable to heal over and wait for a very slow recovery. After this you become very conscious of the centre of buoancy/centre of gravity righting arm equations.
 
Here is a change I did to SEA ANGEL to minimize the intrusion of water thru the scuppers;

http://www.c-brats.com/modules.php?set_ ... _photo.php

This was added after we did a rescue of some jet-skiers(4) who wanted to hang out in the cockpit as we set a tow for their craft. We had to get the USCG(who got called away) and fire boat to come and pump them out as the skiers watched. TOO much weight in the cockpit was very apparent real soon.

Since the change I have had very little, if any, problem with water in the cockpit.

Art
 
Sea Angel":2ytequy7 said:
Here is a change I did to SEA ANGEL to minimize the intrusion of water thru the scuppers;

http://www.c-brats.com/modules.php?set_ ... _photo.php

This was added after we did a rescue of some jet-skiers(4) who wanted to hang out in the cockpit as we set a tow for their craft. We had to get the USCG(who got called away) and fire boat to come and pump them out as the skiers watched. TOO much weight in the cockpit was very apparent real soon.

Since the change I have had very little, if any, problem with water in the cockpit.

Art
Click to expand...
Art - I have the flapper style scuppers on the Tomcat but would swap them out for those if I could easily. Unfortunately, on the Tomcat the scuppers are on the port and starboard sides of the boat as opposed to the stern. With that arrangement, the ping-pong ball style (like yours) would get clipped off while running or potentially while docking. The bracket on which the engines are mounted limits the options for placing the drains on the stern so I'm somewhat stuck with the flapper style.
 
Art/Sea Angel

I like your scupper fix, but your boat seems to be an early 2005/late 2004 model. It doesn't have the sealed aft lazerette under the motor well. Your cockpit drains drain out through the transom and offer a great way to mount those scupper ball type check valves.

Journey On is a mid-2005 and has the motor well sealed off with a couple of access hatches which is typical since then. Now the scupper drains are in the corner of the cockpit, in front of the motor well and drain out to the side. The only other difference is a removable cockpit deck to allow one to work on the fuel tank.

Dora Jean has your configuration, though the scuppers drain out of the side and he's also installed those ball type check valves on the inside. I can't figure out how to mount those check valves and so I use plugs.

The best cockpit drains I ever had was on a Catalina 36 which had an open transom. When a wave came over the side, it went right out the back. Beautiful, not possible with an outboard.

Boris
 
Here is a scupper upgrade on my CD25 courtesy of the original owner. The diameter has been increased 50% and there is an interior backflow preventer.

IMG_0225_Medium.sized.jpg
 
Jay, it must be the angle of the picture but in that view the drain looks almost horizontal relative to the water. What is the total drop from deck to drain outlet?
 
That drop in no more than an inch or 2. And those check valve slow the water flow considerably. I removed the check valves, not enough head to drain out.

Boris
 
Boris,
You are right about SEA ANGEL's manufacture. I ordered it in June, 2004. It went into the molds in July, 2004. It was the first manufactured done after a move into a newer location. It was shipped in Sept.2004 to CUTTER Marine in MD., though I did have its power and electronics rigged here in Norfolk, VA..

I prefer the open area under the splash-well so I can see my fuel filters and take advantage of the open storage space for batteries and fenders. I don't know when this changed.

Another subtle change was the wiper arms went from the straight arms with the 13" wipers to the pantographic arms with the 14" wipers. I think that happened going into the late(?) 2005 production run, but definitely in 2006.

Art
 
Art, all the changes were in the boat we saw at the 2005 Seattle Boat Show, I think; Pat, help!!!.

And I think a lot of the changes were just different, not better or worse. And if they work, more power to you. Remember, you're the one with the scuppers that drain right out, I'm the one with the plugs.

Any way, Journey On was built in June/July 2005 with all the changes you mentioned. I've skinned my knuckles to explore the aft lazerette, but it also contains the holding tank, which disappeared shortly for a marine toilet which had it's own holding tank. Just different. It's all the same boat.

Boris
 
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