single v.twin engines - unnecsssary anxiety, perhaps

Y

Yellowstone

New member
I know this topic has been beaten to death, but perhaps it has created unnecesary anxiety for some boaters. The latest Boating magazine Nov/Dec. has an article on boating myths, among them "Those who run offshore with one engine will eventually regret it." See pp. 51-56. A number of myths (I believed in several) were exposed. Interessting article. Yellowstone
 
The only ones who regret it are the ones who's single engine quits and are unable to get themselves pointed into the seas so they can safely await a tow back to the dock. I'll look up the article to to see if my thoughts are poorly conceived.
 
I'm absolutely amazed at the number of power boaters I have seen who have no anchoring system aboard, not to mention drogues or parachutes, or no small auxilliary engine to help maintain direction if needed, particularly in inland waters. But C-Dory owners are the exception.

Yellowstone
 
potter water":2t71q8fj said:
The only ones who regret it are the ones who's single engine quits and are unable to get themselves pointed into the seas so they can safely await a tow back to the dock.
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Although having a single main engine doesn't preclude one from having a kicker/second engine, so it's not "twins or nothing" if the main engine has a problem.
 
Yellowstone":2s5e5nd5 said:
I know this topic has been beaten to death, but perhaps it has created unnecesary anxiety for some boaters. The latest Boating magazine Nov/Dec. has an article on boating myths, among them "Those who run offshore with one engine will eventually regret it." See pp. 51-56. A number of myths (I believed in several) were exposed. Interessting article. Yellowstone
Click to expand...

Having had five failures on the water with my CD 16 Cruiser, I learned:
1) Even if you have a boat towing service subscription, they can't always get to you in time to avert a potentially dangerous situation.
2) Boat towing services can't always get your boat back into a slip if the area aound it is too tight
3) No matter what most people say, a second motor is necessary, because not only do our modern primary engines fail, but they do so frequently in any geographical area due to a wide range of issues to include spinning a prop, bad fuel, mechanical failure or electrical failure.
4) It is so true how many boaters don't even carry anchors or rope. I discovered this first hand when a weekend boater with a 23 foot boat expected me to tow him to safety. With approx. 7 young adults on board, he had no anchor, 30 feet of rope, and he did not have a boat towing subscription service. I hate going out on weekends, because at least in the Northeast, there are too many ignorant boaters who don't know the rules of the road, don't know how to safely operate their boats, and who are ill prepared with respect to safety equipment and procedures. It is a prescription for a disaster.
5) Radar, Chartplotter, radio w/AIS, back-up Nav systems, adequate fuel reserves, water on board, and even things mandated by law but are not consistently followed like life preservers, fire extinguishers, flares and other signaling devices -- all are essential safety equipment to help to ensure survival in emergencies.

Personally, I think C-Brats people really get it that boating can be dangerous if not approached with a serious mind. We prize safety and function over form and economics, which is why we collectively have, for the most part, an excellent safety record.
 
Without comment, here is the text of the article itself:

Myth #20:
THOSE WHO RUN OFFSHORE WITH ONE ENGINE WILL EVENTUALLY REGRET IT.
Talk to a recreational fisherman, cruiser or go-fast enthusiast who has sat adrift because his single power source died and you’ll get support for this theory. But consider that if you have a fuel problem, it’s going to affect all the engines. And if you hit something, it’s likley to disable all the props. Commercial fishing boats, tugs, and other workdboats all have single engines and go out in the nastiest weather. Their secret? Good maintenance.
MYTH: BUSTED


Joe. :teeth :thup
 
C-nile--5 failures on a 16 foot boat!
The question is how many could have been prevented, or you should have had adequate materials aboard to repair the engine. (plus having a kicker to "get home".

Generally modern outboards are extremely reliable--especially when well maintained. Sure I have had two spun props--but always had an extra prop, and kicker aboard, so i could get to a place where I could replace the prop (or launch the mini dinghy to replace the prop on the spot). I have had a transmission failure on a big boat--but due to a broken engine mount I missed. I still got home safely.

Agree that you not only have to have adequate anchoring gear--drogue type materials, kicker, tools and materials which can substitute for what is broken. Bad fuel--separate fuel source for the hand started kicker!
 
With 845 hours on my Honda 90 on the C-Dory (hopefully just broken in!) I've yet to have the engine fail to start or shut off for any reason other than me turning the key off.

Same story with the Yamaha on the Whaler, though only about 500 hours on that engine.

I've had overheat alarms go off twice...because of kelp wrapped around the lower unit. Both times the engine was up and running in about a minute.

I'm happy with my single, but I'd probably also be happy with twins.

C-Nile-what caused so many failures on your 16?
 
Bob, Joe, Retriever Et. Al.:

I was running my CD 16 Cruiser w/40 HP Suzuki on the Thames River in Connecticut, when the engine stopped dead. It was a brand new engine with about 20 hours on it. You can't blame that on bad maintenance. Seatow rescued us. I'll put a plug in for them now -- they were great! I can't tell you how helpless I felt without power. We had 100 feet of rode and an anchor, but it was nearly impossible to hold the bottom, because that section of the river has a smooth rock bottom, cut out by the last glacier. Upon reflection, I don't think we would have held bottom with 200 feet of rode. At any rate, we had the boat towed back to the dealer. Suddenly, it started working again. Then later it failed. Fortunately, I had the presence of mind to install a 4 HP kicker I previously owned on the stern, and the other four failures I got back without help. As it turned out, an electrical connection in the wiring harness was deemed faulty. Essentially, a wire inserted into a round connector was crimped into an oval shape. Changing motor trim from time to time would cause the connection to either break or re-establish itself. It was weird. What I never told the group before is that according to my dealer, Suzuki knew about a faulty wiring harness situation in some of their engines, but did not tell them. Interesting, isn't? It took the dealer to take the wiring harness out, examine it closely to notice the oval, imperfect crimp job. Then Suzuki acknowledged they were having problems with some of their wiring harnesses and gave us a new wiring harness gratis. Suzuki makes a great engine, regardless of what I went through, but please note that when I got my new boat engine, it was a Honda.

My father owned a service station in the 1960's, and I worked for him many summers. I knew how to work on cars. My father was also an electrician, and you know what he hated the most about working on cars? -- shooting intermittent electrical problems. This brings us back to modern outboard motors: they are too dammed complex for a person to fix them on the water for all but the simplest of problems. And Bob -- I'm not going to jump into cold New England waters to change a prop in the middle of Long Island Sound. My common sense obviates that possibility.

It just so happens that when I was giving "Primetime Steve" a test ride in our boat, he confided that he had a failure in his primary engine on his current boat, and believes so much in the need for an auxiliary motor, that he is putting one on his new Marinaut.

About four year's ago, my bother-in-law had several failures on the water caused by a malfunctioning circuit board on a 26' Seaswirl with a Volvo Diesel I/O and having less then 70 hours on the engine. I was with him on one of those occasions. It wasn't pretty, because he did not have an auxiliary or Seatow membership.

Modern engines are always dependable. You don't need an auxiliary or second motor. You can't beat modern technology. Really? To be fair, modern motors are better then then those from the past, but they do fail. How much? Well, here I have presented three cases I know about. Seatow seemed busy this year at times, so something has to be keeping them in business.

The fact is that Murphy strikes all the time, which is why I will always have a good tow service subscription, an auxiliary motor that I frequently test, and plenty of rode. I'll leave you with the following. I had the honor of hearing the world famous "Father of Disaster Recovery Planning", Mr. Edward S. Devlin, at a seminar more than 10 year's ago. He said that everyone seems to think that Murphy never strikes, but in fact: it strikes all the time, and he went on to illustrate with specific examples, such as a town on the East Coast that was solely dependent upon a factory for its economic survival. One day, its well-practiced volunteer fire department helplessly watched the factory burn to the ground, because the fire had coincided with a 500-year flood that prevented them from crossing a bridge. This bridge spanned the waterway separating the island (upon which the factory stood) from the mainland. In all levels of business, government and even in our own lives, we need to plan for the unexpected. This is why it is important to perform a risk analysis along with appropriate procedures and funding to mitigate loss. That's what we C-Brats do by having back-up motors, and ignoring those who would tell us otherwise.
 
breausaw":t5homnjh said:
OMG, Not this again!
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Yes, it keeps coming up. The only reason why I'm so persistent is that I care about people's safety enough to desire to steer them in the right direction, and really get irritated when dealers at boat shows tell people engines are so dependable that they don't fail. I was given that very same pitch when I asked if I should install my existing kicker on my new boat!

Rich
 
I have never needed the twins. But, I don't regret having them either as I have seen many a boaters stranded without power. And most of the time, it isn't fuel, a log, or anything like that at all. It is just, the damn main won't run....
 
Oh boy, here it is again. I agree. I have over 550 hours on my twins. Only needed a second engine twice. Both times it was a prop failure, (plastic ProPulse prop broke some blades out. Came into the marina on the other engine.)

I think it depends on where you boat, more than anything, but there are many things to consider. I happen to like comfort, and for me comfort is redundancy, and in the case of the OB's, redundancy is 2 of them hanging on the transom.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

JC_Lately_SleepyC_Flat_Blue_055.highlight.jpg
 
Sunbeam":hnt3po4i said:
Although having a single main engine doesn't preclude one from having a kicker/second engine, so it's not "twins or nothing" if the main engine has a problem.
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Your right, this is not really a rehash of past single vs. twins posts, but rather a boater relying soley on a single or having the redundancy of a second main engine or a kicker. As El and Bill said apty, redundancy equates to safety.

rich
 
C-Nile":1a5nsuru said:
Bob, Joe, Retriever Et. Al.:
This brings us back to modern outboard motors: they are too dammed complex for a person to fix them on the water for all but the simplest of problems. And Bob -- I'm not going to jump into cold New England waters to change a prop in the middle of Long Island Sound. My common sense obviates that possibility.
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No one suggested that you jump into cold waters! Read what I wrote: go to a dock, shore or dinghy. (Actually I have jumped into the North Atlantic--colder than LIS in the Azores -- with a wet suit to untangle lobster pot line which was tangled in a large boat prop--and save the fisherman's rig, rather than utilizing a line cutting device.)

Sea Tow--great if you are in an area which has it, and the service can get there in a timely manor. Again--I am of the group is that you are responsible for what you do, have the back up, tools and knowledge to fix those things which go wrong. Most failures are a simple problem. In fact I would argue that your electrical problem could have been temporally resolved by jiggling all of the connections--if you went thru the diagnostic route, which I am sure your father taught you. Way back, when outboards were less reliable--and perhaps simpler--I had intermittent electrical problems--and when I had a failure to start, I would go thru the engine moving connections. Most likely if you have trimmed the motor up and down, or moved the connections the motor would have started, as it did when you got back to shore.

Granted, I think that all small boats need some aux propulsion such as a kicker. I followed this even on my large diesel powered vessels as well as large inflatables when going a long distance. I noted that I was one of the few who had their oars on the dinghy on many of our cruises.

As for towing service: most tows are related to some preventable or correctable problem. Once I stood by a sailboat off Point Conception for several hours--he had issued a "May Day" (filters plugged up after some rough weather, he had run out filters and run down the batteries--not keeping the gen set running --series of errors.) The Towing service was proceeding at 7 knots from over 70 miles away. I relayed position, until the towing service was within his hand held VHF range. I could have taken him in tow, and would have getting to Santa Barbara Harbor sooner, (and he would have been in much sooner), but he had already "contracted" with the towing service (Yes, I had the gear and expertise to safely tow his boat). Many of us boat in areas where there are no towing services. A specific towing service may be not be covering your area, where there is a competing service. If you feel safer with a towing service,your area will be covered by a service or don't have the expertise, then by all means subscribe to one.
 
Bob Et. Al.,

You and I agree ninety-five percent of the time, but not on this. We did wiggle the connections. We changed trim -- nothing worked. It would work for several hours, and then out of the blue stop. What would you have me do next, hit it with a hammer? The whole point is that no amount of prayer, contemplation, and past experience may be enough to get a primary engine started when one is out on the water. In the past, we delt with magnetos, carberetors, points and relatively simple components. Now we have electronic, computerized systems with fuel injection. Short of changing a fuse and doing the obvious, one needs a diagnostic computer to determine the fault along with factory training and specialized equipment. One also must consider that if an engine is under warranty, and one does not know what one is doing, and damage results, that would probably invalidate the engine's warranty.

As for towing service descriptions, on the East Coast I use Seatow. It costs us about $165 per year, and covers the continental United States. If they don't have coverage in the area we are cruising, they will find a local provider for us, we will pay that provider, and they will reimburse us for the cost. When we used our Marinaut in the PNW, we were covered! Their boats are modern. When we were towed, Seatow came with a multi-hull, twin engine boat capable of cruising at forty knots. They then handed us off to another of their towing vessels that was also fast, powerful and well equipped.

So to those of you reading this who do not already have a towing subscription service, if it is available to you, I recommend it highly. Bob is right that we must take responsibility for ourselves. Having such a service and an auxiliary motor are very important in that regard.

Rich
 
Try and find Sea Tow on the West Coast--where are they in Seattle? The Delta?--How about 2 operations--Newport Beach and San Diego Calif.
How well will they pay? That is a bit of an unknown. Most of the towing operations are franchises--and depend on the quality of the person and boat. There was a white paper on this by the Coast Guard in 2005. There is no regulation of the industry.

Here is what happened to my neighbor, as published in a regional magazine:


TOWING VS SALVAGE:
BEWARE OF UNSCRUPULOUS TOWING COMPANIES Boaters should not assume anything when it comes to boat- ing. If you are a boater and have not taken a towing/salvage 101 course, let me speak from experience and recommend that you do not wait until you need a tow to find out the coverage you have. Trust me—there is a big difference in the cost. Most of the boaters that I know have some type of tow- ing insurance. However, there are different levels of cover- age just as any other types of insurance. You should take the time to read and understand the amount of coverage you have. For example, do you know the difference in a simple tow, a soft grounding, a hard grounding, and salvage?
On November 14, I had a very unpleasant experience in my 72-foot houseboat when a very strong wind picked it up during the night of an overnight trip and caused my stern anchor to drag and blew me parallel to the beach. The wind also caused the tide to go out very fast, leaving me in very shallow water. At 6 a.m. the next morning, when I awoke to find that I had a problem, my boat was still floating, but I would need some help to have it pulled into deeper water.
I called my towing service and explained my situation to them and advised them that the tide was still going out and very fast. I was asked if I/we, or my boat was in any danger, and I told them that we were not. Even though they were only 35 to 40 minutes away from me, they did not arrive until 9:15 a.m., and by that time, I did not have any water under a large portion of my boat.
When the tow boat arrived, the captain determined that this was a “hard grounding” and had me sign the contract. He then attempted to pull my boat straight back parallel with the beach, but it would not move. Even though none of the conditions changed, other than he was going to pull the stern of the boat out away from the beach, the captain advised me that this was going to turn into “salvage” instead of a hard ground tow. I was not sure exactly what he
was talking about. However, he asked me if I had hull insurance and he wanted to see my insurance policy. He stated that my insurance company would not have a problem with his charge of $125 per foot ($9,000). I said but what about my $4,000 deductible? He said that he was sorry about that .He then had me initial the original contract showing it as a sal- vage. He then proceeded to place a large water pump on the back of my boat (though he never started the engine) and stuck oil-soaked rags in the engine compartment vents. He said this was to prevent water from coming into the engine compartment—which was not necessary because the water level never got high enough for any water to come into the vents. He then pulled the stern of the boat around into deep- er water and with the help of my two engines, the boat was backed off the sand. In the captain’s written report, he stat- ed that my boat was taking on water, which it was not, but I assume that was his justification for changing it to a sal- vage. The moral to this story is that had this been classified as a “hard ground tow” (and that is what it was), instead of a “salvage,” the captain would have earned approximately $1,000 which was covered by my unlimited towing cover-
age instead of the $9,000, of which I would have to pay $4,000. Had I known the difference in the types of “tows and salvage,” I would not have signed the agreement contract until I had a better understanding of why it was being changed from a tow to a salvage.
This occurred at Fort McRee Cove south of the Pensacola Naval Air Station.
C. C. “Neil” Thorsen Pensacola, FL

Yes, my neighbor didn't have adequate anchoring gear, he should have asked the other YC members near him for help. He should have taken videos of "Salvage"--but he was still out a bunch of bucks--and had an "unlimited" policy with his tow company!

Sometimes they will be there, and sometimes not.

Take that same money and buy a kicker--then no worry!

Oh, by the way--the tow I spoke of off Point Conception cost the boat owner almost $3,000, because he was out of the limits--and charged at $200 an hour (now days it is $250 an hour portal to portal)


 
Bob,
Everyone needs to do their homework. Seatow is a highly reputable organization, based upon my experience, so everything you stated shows I made the right decision. I don't live on the West Coast, so perhaps fellow C-Brats can comment on any good tow services they have available to them in that locale? This would benefit fellow C-Brats in selecting the best tow service for their area.

You bring up a good point about salvage vs. tow, which is a reason for having good boat insurance, and ironically is also a reason for having a kicker. Twice when we had the Cd 16 Cruiser we got into water too low to run the main engine. Seatow would not have been able to rescue us in those situations, since it would have been classified as a salvage operation. We got out with our kicker.

We totally agree that kickers are a necessity; that's a given. Where we don't agree is the necessity for a tow service. My wife and I have the wanderlust, so at times, we could be 80 miles or more from home. We don't want to travel to home port at 5.5 to 6 MPH. So I suppose that if someone travels less then 20 miles from home port, a towing service may not be as necessary. I still recommend getting the service, however, since I would not want to be caught in heavy seas with the main engine out, operating only with a kicker.

Again, it would be nice for fellow C-Brats to chime into this conversation on their tow service experiences in the interest of helping others.

Rich
 
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