SoCal marina/slip location ideas?? (new owner)

[aGrandView]

I have crossed the channel many times in 23' to 62' sailboats in the late afternoon. A 35' deep V would have a better time than a Tom Cat 255. The Tom Cat has little bridge deck clearance aft at lower speeds. I think it would be a very uncomfortable ride.

Going back, in the late afternoon, I worked my way up inside the Long Beach, and East sections of LA breakwater, then worked my way to the lee of Pt. Fermin before turning to cross the 22 miles to the Isthums. If I was lucky I could make 15 knots..it took over 2 hours going back--vs less than an hour in the smooth water.

Interesting. I think your exp in these particular conditions and exp with CD25s and Tomcats is a great reference point for me update some theoretical things I learned in "Sorensen's guide to powerboats". A quote from Sorensen's which was the basis for my cat vs deep V comments:

"A proper cat offers an excellent ride, with a well-designed 25-footer purring along as smoothly in a 2- to 3- foot chop as a deep-V 5 to 10 feet longer."

This is why I asked that question. And it seems your opinion is that the Tomcat isn't deigned well enough to have a comparable ride to a longer deep-V in a 2 to 3 foot chop. So maybe I should lower my expectations a bit.

Maybe it just makes more sense to compare the Tomcat to a CD25 since those were the two boats I'd pretty much narrowed my search to. So you said a Tomcat would have a very uncomfortable ride in the afternoon: does that mean a CD25 would have an EXTREMELY uncomfortable ride in the afternoon?

I guess I'm looking for some validation that the Tomcat is going to be a lot more versatile in different weather/water conditions, and offshore capable, than a CD25. You and Phil have been vocal about the Tomcat's limitations so I guess I should be wary of Sorensen's overly optimistic description of cat performance (and of course, he's generalizing about cats so it's not possible that his description would apply to all.)

BTW, happy 4th all!

 

[Pacificcoast101]

After owning our Tomcat for ten years I can say that I will likely never buy a monohull again, however, the Tomcat does slam into chop over three feet. If the swells are close together or it's windy I have to slow down.

When motoring in relatively calm conditions, nothing beats a cat. I love that we can walk around on deck or get in our heavy dive gear without holding onto anything. The Tomcat is a more stable platform than many boats twice its length.

 

[aGrandView]

C Dory also makes a Cat--Tom Cat 255. This will run in 2 to 3 footers at 35 knots

Also, this is a quote from you from a few years ago in THT. Is there something specific about the SoCal afternoon chop (wave periods, winds, etc) that makes it harder to achieve this 35 knots in 2 to 3 footers in a Tomcat? Or is this an opinion that has changed more recently based on new experiences?

I'm having a hard time reconciling your statements to the effect that the Tomcat would handle the island crossing in a chop less well than a deep V, and that it would be uncomfortable? Are the 2 to 3 footers in your THT post (where you state you can make 35 knots) just different than the 2 to 3 footers you encounter doing an island trip in the late afternoon?

 

[aGrandView]

When motoring in relatively calm conditions, nothing beats a cat. I love that we can walk around on deck or get in our heavy dive gear without holding onto anything. The Tomcat is a more stable platform than many boats twice its length.

I can safely say the majority of people do not buy cats primarily for their abilities to motor well in calm conditions. In fact, the main reason is typically somewhere close to the opposite of that.

But I can definitely see why it's a great platform for diving and why you'd never go back to a monohull.

 

[thataway]

C Dory also makes a Cat--Tom Cat 255. This will run in 2 to 3 footers at 35 knots

Also, this is a quote from you from a few years ago in THT. Is there something specific about the SoCal afternoon chop (wave periods, winds, etc) that makes it harder to achieve this 35 knots in 2 to 3 footers in a Tomcat? Or is this an opinion that has changed more recently based on new experiences?

I'm having a hard time reconciling your statements to the effect that the Tomcat would handle the island crossing in a chop less well than a deep V, and that it would be uncomfortable? Are the 2 to 3 footers in your THT post (where you state you can make 35 knots) just different than the 2 to 3 footers you encounter doing an island trip in the late afternoon?

There is a difference between the conditions in the Catalina Channel, and the areas where I ran at higher speed in the bays of Florida. The example is that we live on Perdido bay, and there is about a 12 mile fetch from the ICW to where we turn into our bayou. During Northers, there is a constant and consistent train of chop which can be up to 2 1/2 feet, at times 3 feet in the odd wave. I could power up to 35 and get on top--to run in that consistent chop. At 35 knots the run was only about 25 minutes and the chop was decreasing as we got closer to the head of the bay. Catalina Channel fetch is many more miles, and deep channel, with different periods. Perdido Bay is 6' depth, and constant steep chop. Cat bridges this short chop better. A wave is not the same, depending on many factors. Several great books on this subject alone...

The difference with the Catalina channel, is that there are ground swells, and the chop is not entirely consistent. The combination can make seas over 3 feet. There are more confused seas as a result. My only sea trial of a Tom Cat in S. Cal. was "Dive Cat". She had a Bauer Compressor in the area where the bait well is located. She also had some dive tanks aboard. There were micro-commander controls, and the trim tabs were not on the binnacle. The owner did not allow me to trim the boat. The boat handled the seas off Marina Del Ray in the mid afternoon OK. But that area is calmer, and the chop less steep and less confused than in the channel between Catalina and two harbors or the West End. The wind accelerates as it comes around Point Fermin. After that sea trial I was not going to buy a Tom Cat. A few weeks later I sea trialed another boat (lighter, and with twin Suzuki's) which I was able to trim to achieve a good ride, in Apalachicola Bay. It was rough and we were running along side a Regulator 26' in 2 to 2 1/2 foot chop. People often under-estimate the height of seas. I also put on Permatrims, hoping that would give more stern lift and perhaps allow running a considerably lower speeds in heavy chop--I probably would not recommend the Permatrims for that purpose.

You will enjoy the Tom Cat and it will serve you well. This week I advised a potential buyer of a Tom Cat 255 that there would be better pilot house boats for fishing in the Gulf of Mexico, off Destin and Pensacola. For the average day it would be fine. But if caught in a thunderstorm, the chop may be more than would be comfortable. Our conditions are not as consistent as S. Calif. The wind may clock 360 degrees in 24 hours or less. At times we have breezes up to 50 knots blowing offshore. Recently a different brand and somewhat larger cat run from Orange Beach to the Bahamas in one day! The run was about 800 miles, and there was one stop for fuel. That shows the ability of cats under 45 feet. But tunnel clearance and design is important.

Enjoy your boat--it is a good one.

 

[thataway]

guess I'm looking for some validation that the Tomcat is going to be a lot more versatile in different weather/water conditions, and offshore capable, than a CD25. You and Phil have been vocal about the Tomcat's limitations so I guess I should be wary of Sorensen's overly optimistic description of cat performance (and of course, he's generalizing about cats so it's not possible that his description would apply to all.)

Just being realistic. The Tom Cat has some short comings, but is an excellent boat. The cabin layout is the best for the size, and that is the reasons I owned one. Sold it because of health. Wife still talks about the Tom Cat.

There is a TC 24 which had done multiple trips to the Channel Islands, (Also from Pasadena).

I have taken the 25 to Catalina when I kept the boat on the West Coast. I owned the C Dory 25 on the West Coast and the TC 255 at my home in Pensacola. Son has a C Dory 25 currently.

Of the two, the TC is the better boat. Don't second guess your decision. For your trips to the Island and around the bay, you will find the TC 25 perfect.

If I was younger and healthier, I would have a custom built cat in the 28 for size with a cabin layout very similar to the Tc 255. The boat would have more tunnel clearance, and perhaps a slightly sharper entry forward--still be a planing cat, and probably 10' beam. (Although there are some 28' cats with 8' beam.)

For ocean fishing around here, I prefer my Caracal Cat "18' CC with Suzuki 140 hp, over the C Dory 25. It is faster, and rides about the same as the Tom Cat 255 (but has a bit more tunnel clearance, even though it is a single engine cat.

Enjoy your 255.

 

[aGrandView]

Thanks. This is very detailed and useful context for understanding previous comments.

After more research and feedback like this I think I have a better idea of the TC limitations now.
-It has a lower tunnel/smaller sponson design which makes it more uncomfortable in rough water than some cats
-It also has a planing hull so it’s ability to be comfortable in the chop is more contingent on enough speed to be on plane (compared to semi-displacement cat hulls that can do well even in sub-plane speeds)
-The low tunnel/small sponsons + planing hull make the TC more sensitive to load (load makes the tunnel even lower and also makes it harder to plane over the chop)

So it won’t be as good offshore as a World Cat or Glacier Bay (which have higher tunnels/larger sponsons and/or semi-displacement hulls), especially with a large load (lot of people/diving/fishing gear). But it will be more efficient, have more cabin space, and still be a lot more comfortable than most sub 35’ monohulls in most conditions. Including in this case specifically where I’m choosing between a TC and a CD25, the TC will be a much better boat offshore and for making island runs than a CD25.

I think I’ll do well to always consider my load and to really learn the trim and planing characteristics of my TC to get the most out of my boating experiences when I want to go offshore.

 

[aGrandView]

Enjoy your 255.

Thanks! (I sent my previous reply before seeing you'd posted again, I was replying to your previous post, oops)

 

[thataway]

The displacement/semti displacement hulls do not plane. They are limited in top speeds.

Any hull design is a series of compromises--this includes all sizes and types of boats. I am not aware of any one good book on Catamaran hull designs. Read some of Richard Woods,Morelli and Melvin, Chris White, Malcom Tennant's web pages. Boat Design.net has some discussion of types of hulls in the forums. Dave Gerr's Books on the "Nature of Boats, plus the one on structure of boats have a lot of information on boat hulls, which can then be applied to cats, if you really want to do some searching.

The Hull Truth forum--if you cut thru the crap...BullShipper has some excellent posts on cat hulls. There is a lot of information, but not just in one place. Plus seeing how different boats run (both sail and power--(more similarities in cats perhaps than in mono hulls). .

 

[aGrandView]

The displacement/semti displacement hulls do not plane. They are limited in top speeds.

Sorensen says of displacement cat hulls:
"That makes them displacement hulls by definition. But, thanks to their low wavemaking resistance, these narrow cats actually run at planing speeds"
-and-
"The better displacement cats, in fact, hardly notice the transition to plane, meaning you can operate easily at virtually any midrange speed."

This is why I was mentioning the TC really needs to be on plane to get over the rough stuff well. Some non-planing cat hulls can effectively plane but don't have a binary on/off plane attitude of the planing hull. So they have a better and more comfortable midrange.

A further implication being, that if it's too rough to go fast enough for the TC to plane, your ride will be uncomfortable and slow. With a displacement/semi-displacement cat hull, even if it's too rough to go fast, it can still be less slow and less uncomfortable than a planing hull/TC.

 

[aGrandView]

Any hull design is a series of compromises--this includes all sizes and types of boats. I am not aware of any one good book on Catamaran hull designs. Read some of Richard Woods,Morelli and Melvin, Chris White, Malcom Tennant's web pages. Boat Design.net has some discussion of types of hulls in the forums. Dave Gerr's Books on the "Nature of Boats, plus the one on structure of boats have a lot of information on boat hulls, which can then be applied to cats, if you really want to do some searching.

The Hull Truth forum--if you cut thru the crap...BullShipper has some excellent posts on cat hulls. There is a lot of information, but not just in one place. Plus seeing how different boats run (both sail and power--(more similarities in cats perhaps than in mono hulls). .

Thanks for all the tips. I am really enjoying digging in and researching this stuff. I guess part of the reason is I don't have my boat yet so I have plenty of free time, haha