Some general C-25 questions

M

matt_unique

New member
You guys/gals have been helpful with many other question. I have had a few more come to mind regarding the C-25.

1.) Do you feel a radar arch is worth the price, weight, additional holes in the skin?

I plan to mount radar and a tri-lens radar reflector. I would mount the radome higher than the radar reflector to avoid having a large metal reflector right in front of the radome. I would at a minimum use a pedastal mount.

2.) For those with twin engines on the C-25, what engines are you using and what is your top end speed? I'm thinking about many options, but considering the new Honda 90's (EFI). I read the other discussion about the 90's and many were commenting on the placement...i.e. engine too low or too high in the water. Any additional comments about the new Honda's?

3.) In terms of handling seas...can the C-25 remain planed off in say 2-4' seas without crazy pounding? When C-Dory owners refer to "slowing down to handle the seas" are you talking about headway speed?

I have owned a 19' Bayliner cuddy cabin with an 18 degree deadrise and this thing pounds through any sea condition except flat calm. Of course any boat is calm if just at headway speed and I wanted to know if the C-Dory design offered an advantage.

4.) Does anyone know what changes were made (if any) between the 2007 and 2007 C-25?

Thanks
 
Captain Matt,

I don't know the answers to alot of your questions, but I do have experience in the radar arch/reflector department.

For my maiden cruise in the Puget Sound/San Juan area I wanted a large radar imprint, so hung an assembled aluminum radar reflector. I got the tall radar arch to be able to help hold water toys and dinghy under it on the roof and I think it gives you a bit higher radar and VHF signal path.

Several of the dock 'experts' at the various harbors said that with all the metal in that tall radar arch, the rod holders and plates, a radar reflector would not be needed.

I am very glad that I got the tall radar arch and would recommend that option strongly. It also allows tying the folded up camper canvas and supports up forward and out of the way during times of heavy fishing, highway travel, or just not needing the canvas.

Just a thought,

John
 
So...the radar arch it'self (being made of metal) would act as a reflector? I was having a look at a member's photo album today (Hunky Dory) and I love the roof top framework that he made...but I wondered if it would actually interfere with the radar. Then again...I know nothing about these radar units.
 
Matt,
I would really miss my radar arch. I have the tall version to have room for the dingy under it. It also holds the radar dome, rod holders, fender holders, GPS and radio antennas. Its an extra hand hold for moving forward on the boat and offloading to the dock.

2 foot seas, I can stay on plane at about 12-14 knots. 4 footers, at least the steep short ones around the Strait of Georgia, are definitely 6-10 knot speed for me.

I use a single 150 Yammi and 9 kicker. The 150 is plenty of power for this boat, even when loaded heavy. I decided to see how far I could get on the kicker on saturday just cause. I made about 20 NM before I became really bored. Averaged about 4.5 kts.

ron
 
Matt,

1.) Do you feel a radar arch is worth the price, weight, additional holes in the skin?
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Yes. In addition to what DrJohn stated (I have an inflatable dinghy that I carry on the roof), I just think it looks good. You did ask for my opinion.

3.) In terms of handling seas...can the C-25 remain planed off in say 2-4' seas without crazy pounding?
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In my OPINION, 2-4' swells, yes you can plane, but 2-4' chop no way. "Crazy pounding" is a little subjective, but the boats are loud slapping the water and yes, going fast in 2' chop can jar teeth (at least mine).

When C-Dory owners refer to "slowing down to handle the seas" are you talking about headway speed?
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I can only speak from personal experience, but when the waves get big, I go slow. I want to be sure to say that I always feel safe in the boat, she floats very well, but she sits high in the water and when the water is moving around a lot, so is the boat. If you're looking for speed through 2-4' chop, I would suggest the TC255.

They don't call these boats "trailerable trawlers" for nothing.

I have owned a 19' Bayliner cuddy cabin with an 18 degree deadrise and this thing pounds through any sea condition except flat calm. Of course any boat is calm if just at headway speed and I wanted to know if the C-Dory design offered an advantage.
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I think the key here is speed. A lot of boats pushed hard in all but the calmest of water will pound some. In most water my boat likes to travel between 12-17 knots, which is quite pleasant. 2' chop, I'd be closer to 12. 4' Chop I'd be closer to 6-8.

I don't know what you expect out of the boat, but my boat tops out at 25 knots in calm water. My open bow Bayliner could do 55 mph. Two completely different types of boats with different purposes and expectations.

BTW, I have a single Mercury Verado 150.

Does anyone know what changes were made (if any) between the 2007 and 2007 C-25?
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I think you might have wanted to put in a different year than 2007 twice, but my CD25 is a 2007 made in Sept of 2006 (if I read my HIN correctly) and the newer ones have fiberglass cabinets whereas mine are wood.
 
I happen to be of the ilk that I have no need for a Radar arch. All of my antennas do very well on the top of the cabin, including the radar.
I don't see any reason to have an arch to put them a foot or two off the top of the boat. The origional radar arches are on boats which don't have places for radar--such as soft top express cruisers, trawlers with flying bridges or even sailboats.

I would doubt if the tubular metal in a radar arch would be a good radar reflector--but any metal is better than none. We can get radar signatures off Pangas in Mexico from the engine blocks. In fog I run slowly. I put foam/foil radar reflectors up on the VHF antennas if necessary.
I tend to be proactive and assume that the other vessel does not see me and take steps to avoid any potential close calls in limited visability.

The dinghy I put on the aft cabin roof, since the radar and other antennas are all foreward on the cabin top. If necessary, the potoons go on each side of the radar mount.

I make a pedistal mount of 4" PVC pipe. I suspose that one could stuff it full of foil, and make that a radar reflector--maybe I'll do that...

From my 22 experience, I would agree with the assesment that a real 2 foot chop is probably the limit for fast running--but if you are cracked off, and there is a combination of swell and chop, you can run at a semidisplacment speed, of between 8 and 18 knots, where the Bayliner would not run--and often 10 to 12 knots is a good speed. If you want the speed--definately the Tom Cat will be far better than either in a chop.
 
I have lined the water tank compartment with tin-foil, the transom in back of the two tanks, and underneath the counter for radar deflection. It is out of sight, out of mind and is always working if I fail to put up a deflector at night or some yahoo is about to run me over in the daytime.
 
Thanks for the replies.

I know the experience of ride in seas is totally subjective. I wish I could get a ride in a C-25 in my area but that does not seem possible from my research so far (Boston area). There are some C-22's on the Cape but I have not found any C-25's.

I have run at 20 knots in my 19' Bayliner in 10' measured swells. It was merely like running up and down in a freight elevator as the swells were far apart and round. The chop is what makes the ride uncomfortable of course. I have been in 5' cresting seas and with 30 knot winds where I would literally fall off the top of the wave and that was just scary. I was in those seas for a very short time fortunately before I was able to get to the lee side of an island. I'm trying to get a sense if the sea handling discussions with C-Dory are really just headway speed or if you can plane off (at a low speed) and put the bow down to split the chop. Any boat rides smooth at headway speed including flat bottom boats bow to stern. I have no particular desire to go fast, I'm just trying to understand how the C-25 with twins will ride differently than my current I/O Bayliner. My current boat is half the weight of the C-25 and that of course affects the ride. The Cat is probably the best boat for me but unless I find an insane great deal I can't afford it.

I meant to ask about the differences between a 2007 and a 2008 C-25.

Thanks again - this is very helpful.
 
The C Dory, because of the flat bottom, will plane at much lower speeds than the Bayliner--generally V planing boats will not get on a plane until 18 knots or so. The C Dory will plane at down to 10 to 12 knots. The speed between 7 to 18 knots is sort of a no mans land in many boats--the C dory runs well in these speeds. It also has high reserve bouyrancy.

People are talking at speeds more than hull speed--they are talking at semidisplacement speeds. As for "cutting the water"--that is a difficult term for me---if the wave is steep enough the boat will pound. I didn't have trim tabs on the 22. I have not run my 25 after replacing the frozen pump, so I cannot comment on the 25, but most folks feel it rides better than the 22.
 
I can say that "pounding" was my one great insecurity and fear when buying my C-25. I, too, had a difficult time getting a real ride in one before purchase. But after a few days of charging around the San Juans I learned that applying 70 or even 100% tabs and keeping the engine down flattened her out so effectively that she punched through 2 and 3 foot chop quite comfortable at 12 to 15 knots. It was a big relief. I have oversized tabs (18 X 12) and that may help. I was also surprised to see that there was actually an increase in efficiency up until point that I had moved the bow wake nearly all the way forward.
With the bow held fully down it is amazing how comfortable it feels in most chop, with an efficiency loss of about a half a knot. That's been my experience.

Kevin
 
This mirrors our experience, and is what I am referring to when I say that the CD25 simply handles rough water appreciably better than a CD22 - and having had both, I know whereof I speak...I suppose a large part of it is simply the extra three feet of length as well.
kevello@comcast.net":2lwsfgi2 said:
I can say that "pounding" was my one great insecurity and fear when buying my C-25. I, too, had a difficult time getting a real ride in one before purchase. But after a few days of charging around the San Juans I learned that applying 70 or even 100% tabs and keeping the engine down flattened her out so effectively that she punched through 2 and 3 foot chop quite comfortable at 12 to 15 knots. It was a big relief. I have oversized tabs (18 X 12) and that may help. I was also surprised to see that there was actually an increase in efficiency up until point that I had moved the bow wake nearly all the way forward.
With the bow held fully down it is amazing how comfortable it feels in most chop, with an efficiency loss of about a half a knot. That's been my experience.

Kevin
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Thanks for the detailed explanations, this helps me get a sense of your experience with chop.

Thanks for letting me think out loud with you as well.

Somewhat unrelated question, do you experience any bow wander while at hull speed? My I/O Bayliner has significant bow wander at headway speed. It's manageable with constant corrections but fatiguing.

Are there owners who keep their boats on slips or moorings who do not use canvas? Assuming the scuppers and the bilge pump were maintained, would the non-canvas boat have a dramatically increased likelihood of core water damage? I looked to the pilot house design, among other reasons, to avoid canvas if possible. If the lack of canvas was likely to lead to greater core water damage I would want to consider convas to protect the investment.

I was thinking about the risk of core damage when I asked about drilling more holes into the skin for the radar arch. I suppose I would be drilling just as many holes to mount a radar pedastal, vhf, GPS receiver, etc. into the roof.

Thanks
 
Matt,

There are specific steps that should be taken in order to avoid water intrusion into wooden cored structures. They are not too difficult, but many installers will not take the proper steps unless they are specified.

Basically, you "pre-drill" your bolt/screw holes, then use a bent nail- like drill bit to hollow out a radius of core material larger than the bolt/screw. You tape the bottom of the hole and fill from the top with epoxy and let that set. Then you drill the actual, final sized hole thru the epoxy core that you poured.

Most ppl only seal the outside or above bolt opening so that if any water does leak, you can see it inside the structure. The epoxy core keeps any water from leaking into the core material and prevents "crushing" the core when tightening the bolts/screws.

there is no problem with mounting equipment if done properly, but the conservative approach is minimum holes drilled.

Any decks can take alot of stress from ice/snow/dirt left to accumulate over time, esp. on the cockpit. Some type of cockpit cover would be a good idea if left outside in the winter.

John
 
drjohn71a":3x7c8s2u said:
Matt,

There are specific steps that should be taken in order to avoid water intrusion into wooden cored structures. They are not too difficult, but many installers will not take the proper steps unless they are specified.

Basically, you "pre-drill" your bolt/screw holes, then use a bent nail- like drill bit to hollow out a radius of core material larger than the bolt/screw. You tape the bottom of the hole and fill from the top with epoxy and let that set. Then you drill the actual, final sized hole thru the epoxy core that you poured.

Most ppl only seal the outside or above bolt opening so that if any water does leak, you can see it inside the structure. The epoxy core keeps any water from leaking into the core material and prevents "crushing" the core when tightening the bolts/screws.

there is no problem with mounting equipment if done properly, but the conservative approach is minimum holes drilled.

Any decks can take alot of stress from ice/snow/dirt left to accumulate over time, esp. on the cockpit. Some type of cockpit cover would be a good idea if left outside in the winter.

John
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I'm with you on the proper technique for sealing drilled holes....I have read the posts from you and Bob and others as to the proper way to seal bolts/screws. If only the entire boat was built this way...

Anyway in terms of core damage relating to the canvas, I was referring to core damage resulting from non-covered exposure for my boating season. In MA that means mid April through November. During the winter of course she will be carefully covered bow to stern. I keep my boat on a mooring during the season and it would be subject to rain only.
 
Somewhat unrelated question, do you experience any bow wander while at hull speed? My I/O Bayliner has significant bow wander at headway speed. It's manageable with constant corrections but fatiguing.
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Matt, I experienced the same thing with my Bayliner. It wandered everywhere when going through no wake zones. It really was tiring to keep it in a straight line.

The CD25 does wander a little, but nothing like the Bayliner. At hull speed (~6-8 knots) she is straight as an arrow. The trade off is that the Bayliner seemed to turn better. The CD25 doesn't 'dig' into the water as much and makes wider, floating turns at low speeds.
 
I have exactly the same experience with speed, chop and keeping the hull down as Kevin, Pat and others have remarked. It handles considerable chop at 12-14 knots with trim tabs deployed -- I also have oversized tabs but don't know the angle for each situation since I don't have trim position gauges (yet!).

As far as twins at hull speed (or low speed planing), they provide a much straighter course than any of the singles I've owned in the past (less corrections needed) -- but then again, I've never driven a single engine CD25 so can't compare directly.
 
I think there are overlooked advantages to radar arches:

1 - With rod holders, you can get a lot of stuff out of your way and clear the cockpit by putting stuff in, or lashing to, or bungying to the arch. Bar-b-ques, fenders, traps, unused bait tanks, extra water/fuel, boat hooks, nets, folding chairs/tables, bedrolls, tents, and so on.

2 - Having that high arch, 1 1/4 inch handle to grab while boarding or going forward is a life saver.

3 - The higher arch provides an excellent, high purchase point for Life Sling block and tackle or other hoisting devices.

4 - The higher arch allows you to put multiple kayaks, tipped on sides, and have them firmly anchored and safe in harsh weather.

5 - The higher arch allows you to hang a cheap tarp over the cockpit/boat for emergency protection and outdoor projects.

6 - Also the stabilzing provided by the arch while doing rooftop work is priceless while at sea. We had a rogue wave slam us so hard that the white, all-round light went out and I had to climb up there and take it apart, reposition the bulb, etc.. It was sure nice to have that framework to wrap your legs around while using your hands with scredriver and trying not to drop the lens, etc., all at the same time. We've also had to climb out there in a storm to read the flashing light on the gps antenna.

John
 
Ditto on most of what's been said. I really like my high radar arch for all the above, including grab handles, antennae mounting and wire routing as well as dingy and kayak holding. If I understand your question about canvas correctly; one issue I experienced with prolonged docking is that water tends to not completely drain sternward from the uncovered cockpit when at rest due to the fuel filler pipe chases and this was a concern to me with our constant rain. I never had a concern that she would sink, given that most of the water got out and I kept the pumps checked often but the setting water caused me concern about intrusion.
 
I'd like to put in a word for the low radar arch. At least on my Tom Cat, the low arch puts the fishing rod holders within reach when standing in the cockpit. And my 8'10" Alaska Series dinghy fits perfectly on the remaining cabintop space forward of the radar arch.

While the radar would probably shoot through the dinghy OK if mounted directly on the arch, I chose to install it on a riser that keeps it above the dink.

Warren
 
In our older CD 25, the trailer tongue has to be quite high to keep the cockpit draining aft. This seems to equate to "level"--so I assume when in the water full time, it will drain aft adequately. For our 22, we had a cockpit canvas slope back--I probably will build one for the 25 also. The slope back is quite simple and should not be all that expensive--King Canvas wanted $750 for one--I'll probably make one for a couple of hundred dollars.
 
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