I have twin Yamaha 40's on a 22'. The starboard engine starts fine. the port engine is more difficult to start. When I engage the key to start on the port engine, i get one turn on the starter and then nothing. I then bring the key back to "off" and try and again, and then the engine will then turn over and usually start. The one interesting thing is that the instrument gauge for that engine will cut out until the engine starts. It will show the RPM and hours on the engine. the startboard engine instrument panel (guage) does not cut out. I;m not an electrician, but think it is an electrical problem. any body have any ideas? thanks
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STARTING ENGINE
- Thread starter DAVEYB24
- Start date
I had this issue on my last boat. You may have a loose connection on the battery...which in turn has caused an issue with the starter. You may need to replace the starter and also tighten the battery connection. The loose connection arcs and causes a power surge to the starter. They were nice enough to replace my starter under warranty. It was a Yamaha too.
If the gauges are cutting out on the start, you most likely have some battery or connection problems like Dr. Bob says.
I had a 12V outlet put in each of my battery circuits so I can plug in one of those battery dial readout things and that has helped me to understand how a battery can seem to have power, but not actually be able to deliver the full load.
Also, I don't know how or why it happens, but sometimes the in line fuses on mine will partially 'blow', i.e., a slightly darkened area on the fuse link, but not enough to totally shut down the system. If in doubt, clean and tighten all connections and replace any old or questionable fuses.
John
I had a 12V outlet put in each of my battery circuits so I can plug in one of those battery dial readout things and that has helped me to understand how a battery can seem to have power, but not actually be able to deliver the full load.
Also, I don't know how or why it happens, but sometimes the in line fuses on mine will partially 'blow', i.e., a slightly darkened area on the fuse link, but not enough to totally shut down the system. If in doubt, clean and tighten all connections and replace any old or questionable fuses.
John
The fuses on the TomCat's charger are 5 amp for the two starting batteries and 10 amp for the house batteries. Also, there are the fuses wired directly to the battery cables just off the terminals for bilge pumps and some other devices.
In my case, the red 10 amp fuses have partially "blowed" with a dark area on the fuse connector metal, but not enough damage for it to separate.
The 10 amp on the house batteries will blow if your house batteries are low and you plug in a spotlight or enough accessories to draw over 10 amp. The charger fuses will blow if you draw more than 5 amp over a low starting battery and more than 10 amps on the house battery.
The charger that comes with the TomCat is plenty capable to my thoughts BUT it seems to tend to boil the water out of the batteries. For very long term storage, I use those little 450 milliamp float chargers from Harbor Freight on all my farm trucks, tractors, mowers, etc.. The boat I use all year long, so it gets the higher amp charge.
I know there are ppl here who tout the need for a faster, higher amp charger, but the 5,5, and 10 amps are high enough to boil the water out.
Anyway, I have had problems with the batteries running low on water, then losing their potency and then the charger fuse blows or partially blows when you draw 10 amps or more.
Additionally, I have found that the partially blown fuses get really really hot and think they could become a fire hazard if left for long.
John
In my case, the red 10 amp fuses have partially "blowed" with a dark area on the fuse connector metal, but not enough damage for it to separate.
The 10 amp on the house batteries will blow if your house batteries are low and you plug in a spotlight or enough accessories to draw over 10 amp. The charger fuses will blow if you draw more than 5 amp over a low starting battery and more than 10 amps on the house battery.
The charger that comes with the TomCat is plenty capable to my thoughts BUT it seems to tend to boil the water out of the batteries. For very long term storage, I use those little 450 milliamp float chargers from Harbor Freight on all my farm trucks, tractors, mowers, etc.. The boat I use all year long, so it gets the higher amp charge.
I know there are ppl here who tout the need for a faster, higher amp charger, but the 5,5, and 10 amps are high enough to boil the water out.
Anyway, I have had problems with the batteries running low on water, then losing their potency and then the charger fuse blows or partially blows when you draw 10 amps or more.
Additionally, I have found that the partially blown fuses get really really hot and think they could become a fire hazard if left for long.
John
journey on
New member
Mark,
The accessories run with power, not voltage. Since power = voltage X current, as the voltage goes down, the accessories draw more current. As the current goes up, da fuse blows.
Boris
The accessories run with power, not voltage. Since power = voltage X current, as the voltage goes down, the accessories draw more current. As the current goes up, da fuse blows.
Boris
Rwinemaker
New member
Boris,
I think your explanation is off. Using E=IR, current or I=E/R then if E goes down current will also go down. Using the power formula P=IE, if the voltage goes down the power in watts also go down. I've seen something similar on my boat but I'm running twin Hondas. The last time I had the problem I tried to turn over the problem port engine when I got home and it turned over fine. I'm interested in hearing what causes the issue too.
Russ
I think your explanation is off. Using E=IR, current or I=E/R then if E goes down current will also go down. Using the power formula P=IE, if the voltage goes down the power in watts also go down. I've seen something similar on my boat but I'm running twin Hondas. The last time I had the problem I tried to turn over the problem port engine when I got home and it turned over fine. I'm interested in hearing what causes the issue too.
Russ
Guys,
So here's something to ponder. Put a wrench across the terminals of your starting battery as in a dead short. What would the terminal voltage E be then? E would go down to zero wouldn't it? What would the current, I, be at that moment? Zero right?
It be OK to do this because as E goes to zero I would go to zero, right?? I mean according to ohms law.
Ed.
So here's something to ponder. Put a wrench across the terminals of your starting battery as in a dead short. What would the terminal voltage E be then? E would go down to zero wouldn't it? What would the current, I, be at that moment? Zero right?
It be OK to do this because as E goes to zero I would go to zero, right?? I mean according to ohms law.
Ed.
journey on
New member
OK, Russ,
What you say is true for a pure resistive load. Such as a wire wound heater. However, look at an electronic device. They regulate the voltage down to some level required by their electronics. As the input voltage drops, the electronics wants a constant power level, and the regulator will use more input current.
And as voltage drops on a DC motor, the speed will drop and the current increases. Remember a DC motor balances load torque and back EMF. So as it slows down, the back EMF decreases and the current increases to drive the load (I hope.) That's why DC motors are such good servo motors. They generate maximum torque at stall, and use a lot of power doing it.
So if you turn on "accessories" and a fuse blows (current gets too high,) I'll bet those accessories use constant power.
As for the battery, the current will increase until the internal battery resistance balances the battery voltage. E=IR. I used to take my brothers dry cells and short them with wire and watch the wire melt. Never grew up.
As for the Honda, I only solve starting problems for 2-strokes.
Boris
What you say is true for a pure resistive load. Such as a wire wound heater. However, look at an electronic device. They regulate the voltage down to some level required by their electronics. As the input voltage drops, the electronics wants a constant power level, and the regulator will use more input current.
And as voltage drops on a DC motor, the speed will drop and the current increases. Remember a DC motor balances load torque and back EMF. So as it slows down, the back EMF decreases and the current increases to drive the load (I hope.) That's why DC motors are such good servo motors. They generate maximum torque at stall, and use a lot of power doing it.
So if you turn on "accessories" and a fuse blows (current gets too high,) I'll bet those accessories use constant power.
As for the battery, the current will increase until the internal battery resistance balances the battery voltage. E=IR. I used to take my brothers dry cells and short them with wire and watch the wire melt. Never grew up.
As for the Honda, I only solve starting problems for 2-strokes.
Boris
Loose ground more than likely.
A large portion of issues get back to the ground, or lack there of.
This, of course, can change from the time we load our boats and drive cross town/state/country.....as, what is tight will become loose, and what should remain loose...well...it just get tight.
Hate it when that happens.
Byrdman
A large portion of issues get back to the ground, or lack there of.
This, of course, can change from the time we load our boats and drive cross town/state/country.....as, what is tight will become loose, and what should remain loose...well...it just get tight.
Hate it when that happens.
Byrdman
I offered my experience on this odd occurrence , 10 amp charger fuse blowing when a 12 amp spotlight is turned on over dead battery, because I have been fighting electrical problems for quite a while on the house and Port engine circuits.
The start of the problems new seems to have been that, when new, I first installed those battery filler tubing sets over the aft Port two batteries, assuming that they would be on the same circuit since they are next to one another.
The symptoms I was having was a low or dead Port starting battery and weak house batteries, even after long charging at the slip. Of course, using the jump connector switch let everything work OK.
It now seems that, when I flooded the water filler tubing, it had connected the Port engine battery with one of the House batteries (one is adjacent to the Port battery and the other House battery is under the dinette cabinet) it was shorting out the two circuits causing a brief overload and partially blowing the 10amp fuse on the battery.
I would come back to the boat, connect the jump, the batteries would charge while cruising, and all was OK for awhile, but the system did not work well or hold a charge well.
While at the slip, I would notice that the 10 amp House charger fuse kept blowing and it was not until I plugged in a spotlight, while charging, that I saw that, evidently, when the battery is dead and you draw over 10 amps on the circuit, it blows the fuse. Dr. Bob and all you electronics experts are welcome to wade in here, but this realization is what finally led to my solving the problem.
So, I put separate water filling tube sets on each battery, put a 12V socket on each battery's circuit so I could read out what was happening on each leg separately, and replaced ALL of the fuses when I figured out that some had "partially" blown. Perhaps it was that a brief connection between the battery systems with the filler tubes was partially blowing the fuses.
At any rate, I know for certain that, if you put a heavy draw on a dead battery while it is being charged, that exceeds the amperage of the charger, you will blow a charger fuse. I was buying 10 and 5 amp fuses by the dozen trying to figure this out.
btw, my first hint of troubles should have been when I notice the Port bilge pump was not working. I had thought that the pump had probably frozen over the winter. Now I see that the problem with the pump was that the Port engine battery was shorting out on the House battery circuit.
John
The start of the problems new seems to have been that, when new, I first installed those battery filler tubing sets over the aft Port two batteries, assuming that they would be on the same circuit since they are next to one another.
The symptoms I was having was a low or dead Port starting battery and weak house batteries, even after long charging at the slip. Of course, using the jump connector switch let everything work OK.
It now seems that, when I flooded the water filler tubing, it had connected the Port engine battery with one of the House batteries (one is adjacent to the Port battery and the other House battery is under the dinette cabinet) it was shorting out the two circuits causing a brief overload and partially blowing the 10amp fuse on the battery.
I would come back to the boat, connect the jump, the batteries would charge while cruising, and all was OK for awhile, but the system did not work well or hold a charge well.
While at the slip, I would notice that the 10 amp House charger fuse kept blowing and it was not until I plugged in a spotlight, while charging, that I saw that, evidently, when the battery is dead and you draw over 10 amps on the circuit, it blows the fuse. Dr. Bob and all you electronics experts are welcome to wade in here, but this realization is what finally led to my solving the problem.
So, I put separate water filling tube sets on each battery, put a 12V socket on each battery's circuit so I could read out what was happening on each leg separately, and replaced ALL of the fuses when I figured out that some had "partially" blown. Perhaps it was that a brief connection between the battery systems with the filler tubes was partially blowing the fuses.
At any rate, I know for certain that, if you put a heavy draw on a dead battery while it is being charged, that exceeds the amperage of the charger, you will blow a charger fuse. I was buying 10 and 5 amp fuses by the dozen trying to figure this out.
btw, my first hint of troubles should have been when I notice the Port bilge pump was not working. I had thought that the pump had probably frozen over the winter. Now I see that the problem with the pump was that the Port engine battery was shorting out on the House battery circuit.
John
journey on":373b204j said:Mark,
The accessories run with power, not voltage. Since power = voltage X current, as the voltage goes down, the accessories draw more current. As the current goes up, da fuse blows.
Boris
Boris,
The voltage and current determine the power, not the other way around. Devices are meant to operate at a certain voltage if they don't see their required minimum voltage, they won't operate, they won't pull more current.
-Mark
edwardf":231piffa said:Guys,
So here's something to ponder. Put a wrench across the terminals of your starting battery as in a dead short. What would the terminal voltage E be then? E would go down to zero wouldn't it? What would the current, I, be at that moment? Zero right?
It be OK to do this because as E goes to zero I would go to zero, right?? I mean according to ohms law.
Ed.
Ed,
If you short the battery you're going to have a lot of current flowing through the wrench since the resistance of the wrench is very low. The potential drop (voltage) across the wrench will also be very low because of this low resistance, thus your terminal voltage is very low. Let's say you did this with a 12 volt battery. Let's say the EMF or open circuit voltage of the 12 volt battery is exactly 12 volts, then you short it with the wrench and you read 1 volt for your terminal voltage, what that basically means is it takes 1 volt to push the electrons through the wrench and 11 volts to push the electrons through the battery. Technically though the voltage across the wrench (1 volt) is also the voltage across the battery (what your are measuring is the amount of "push" to the electrons this battery can give in this shorted situation. Shorting the battery in this manner creates a very high current flow in this circuit and through the battery. Trying to push this much current through the battery creates a very high internal resistance in the battery thus most of the voltage goes to doing just that (pushing electrons through the battery). So to answer your question about the current going to zero. It doesn't because even though the voltage across the wrench is low, the resistance is also very low, so you have a high current flow and you can see that with the wrench getting hot. I hope this helps and hopefully er probably someone will add and hopefully clarify some more.
-Mark
John,
In my original reply I didn't exactly understand where the 10 amp fuse was that was blowing. The reason I think it is blowing with the dead battery and the spot light on is the charger has to send current to charge the battery and when you turn the spot light on, that is now also pulling current from the charger. They're connected in parallel. The more your batteries are "charged up" the less current they pull from the charger.
-Mark
In my original reply I didn't exactly understand where the 10 amp fuse was that was blowing. The reason I think it is blowing with the dead battery and the spot light on is the charger has to send current to charge the battery and when you turn the spot light on, that is now also pulling current from the charger. They're connected in parallel. The more your batteries are "charged up" the less current they pull from the charger.
-Mark
Guys,
I guess my humor is a little too dry. Mark, I was kidding about the wrench and trying to make the readers think a bit more about ohms law as it applies here.
I was hoping I could make people see you can have the potential across the battery terminals "E" equal to zero but you'd also have one heck of a lot of current and all the power you'd need to blow up a battery!! The current wouldn't go to zero if E was at zero as someone was suggesting.
And if you want to get technical you might also ponder that in the original problem you don't have a purely resistive "circuit" here either. For purposes of analysis you have the Rint of the battery but in addition a battery has serious capacitive reactance which also affects the resultant relationship of the voltage and current over time,
I'll stop here because this isn't the place but as to the original problem yes the fuse could blow.
Ed.
I guess my humor is a little too dry. Mark, I was kidding about the wrench and trying to make the readers think a bit more about ohms law as it applies here.
I was hoping I could make people see you can have the potential across the battery terminals "E" equal to zero but you'd also have one heck of a lot of current and all the power you'd need to blow up a battery!! The current wouldn't go to zero if E was at zero as someone was suggesting.
And if you want to get technical you might also ponder that in the original problem you don't have a purely resistive "circuit" here either. For purposes of analysis you have the Rint of the battery but in addition a battery has serious capacitive reactance which also affects the resultant relationship of the voltage and current over time,
I'll stop here because this isn't the place but as to the original problem yes the fuse could blow.
Ed.