Stem cell therapy

[localboy]

Curious if any of you have pursued stem cell therapy for osteoarthritis issues vs more radical surgical protocols. Seems after 26+ years of chasing bad guys, along with an ACL reconstruction/torn meniscus cartilage of my right knee, I’m a candidate for total knee replacement. :shock:

I began researching alternatives and know stem cell has shown some promise. I went thru the procedure last Thursday at a clinic in Seattle. The doctor is a stem cell pioneer in the Seattle area.

Anyone have any long term experience with outcomes?

 

[Alan]

Don’t know anything about stem cell, but…

At age 75 a lot of our friends have knee replacements.

Most (not all) have been successful.

Hey, we made it this far. I am USN retired. Thanks for your LEO work.

All the best.

 

[localboy]

Thank you Alan...and thank you for your service to our nation.

 

[rogerbum]

Most stem cell therapies promoted for joint issues are allogenic - e.g. stem cells from unmatched donors. Those will be rapidly cleared by the body's own immune system. When I looked into this a few years ago, I couldn't find ANY well designed, case-control clinical trials that showed clear benefits. I think it's mostly a modern snake oil. If you have references to well designed clinical trials that show benefit, I'd love to see them.

 

[localboy]

This procedure used my own stem cells. Recovered from bone marrow harvested via my pelvis. He separated them via centrifuge and mixed them with my own platelet-rich plasma, again separated from my own blood. These were “mixed” with fat harvested from my “love handles” and injected into my knee. Four times the volume the joint would hold normally, per the doctor.

Chronic swelling is definitely better. I now can see the outline of my patella. Pain has decreased compared to pre-therapy. When I work out, I do get pain post-workout, but recovery is quicker; I’ll wake up without pain. I’m about 12 weeks out. Supposed to keep improving for 6 months, post procedure. We shall see.

 

[hardee]

Mark, Thanks for bringing this up. I had a shoulder injury in August, and it has been a bit of a pain, yeah both ways and I have been looking into platelet rich plasma injection vs Stem cell. Wasn't aware of mixing them. From the Ortho doc here, he would reserve that therapy to use at the time of surgery, as he thinks it would be most beneficial then. At this point I am doing physical therapy and seeing the PT once a week. I will be really curious as to how your progress goes. Prayers for an excellent recovery.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[Pat Anderson]

Mark,

I have had bilateral bone on bone arthritis in my knees for years, quite deblitating, as you probably know. In 2019 I tried stem cell therapy, although not like yours. Mine was stem cells from umbilical cords. The doctor was Braden Andersen in Kent through Regenerative Medicine Northwest in Bellevue. Psychosomatic benefit for a while but then the pain returned with a vengeance. X-ray from my orthopedic guy showed still bone on bone., no "regeneration" of anything. Like Roger, I would have to say the "treatment" I had was modern day snake oil - very expensive snake oil at that. Last year I had a total replacement of my left knee, and in December I will be having a total replacement of the right knee. I wish I had the $$$ back on spent on the stem cell "therapy"!

Pat

 

[smckean (Tosca)]

Having some knee problems myself, I've wondered if the "doctors", who administer these stem cell treatments, add any steroids to the complex solution of chemicals and organic material they inject. The steroids, if present, could explain the short-term benefits.

 

[thataway]

Having some knee problems myself, I've wondered if the "doctors", who administer these stem cell treatments, add any steroids to the complex solution of chemicals and organic material they inject. The steroids, if present, could explain the short-term benefits.

I would not be surprised if steroids were a common part of the fluid injected. I have friends who have tried the stem cell injection--for the most part they have not been a long term cure.

We have far more friends who have knee replacements. These are not 100% successful, nor without issues.

 

[hardee]

IF steroids were included in the injection, would that not have to be included in the permission to treat disclosure forms. I can't imagine that steroids could be included surreptitiously.

Knee replacement surgery is a common orthopedic procedure. And there are a fair variety of processes so it warrants checking out the surgeon, the result record, and the procedures practiced. I spent a good share of my time last year with a friend that had both knees replaced, (January and October), The surgeon there used Mako robotic assistance, and considerable digital pre planning, pain control via ultra sound placed nerve block catheter that injected narcotic over a period of 3-4 days post op. Rehab started with continuous passive motion right out of the recovery room. After 40 years working in the hospital setting this was the best surgical experience I have ever seen. If I had to have knee replacement surgery, I would be going to that Ortho Surgical Center.

Harvey
SleepyC:moon

 

[BTDT]

I had my right knee replaced five years ago. Very successful and little pain. Rehab for rotator-cuff surgery was far more painful. Most common complaint I hear is "I wished I hadn't waited so long"

PS Vicki, my better half, is scheduled for right knee replacement the day before Thanksgiving and her birthday. I contend she damaged her knee from kicking me in the butt too many times :roll:

 

[Foggy]

I've been thru 2 hip revisions (second joint replacement surgeries) and 2 total
knee replacements my wife, now 70, has undergone (total of 6 replacements)
all secondary to osteoarthritis. The first 2 hip replacements were from loosening
of the original prostheses. Prior to the surgeries, we went thru discussions of
stem cell, and had steroid injections. Both, IMHO, are a waste of time and money.

The lessons we both learned, and agree on are, in our experience, are:

* Knee replacements have a more morbid recovery than hip replacements,
shoulder replacement even worse (per ex line backer U of M football late 1990s
who had had hip and shoulder replaced)
* Don't wait too long for the replacement if you are hurting
* Find a board certified orthopedic surgeon who has had a fellowship in the specific
replacement you seek for consultation and to perform the surgery

Aye.

 

[pcg]

This procedure used my own stem cells. Recovered from bone marrow harvested via my pelvis. He separated them via centrifuge and mixed them with my own platelet-rich plasma, again separated from my own blood. These were “mixed” with fat harvested from my “love handles” and injected into my knee. Four times the volume the joint would hold normally, per the doctor.

What I really want to know is.. is this finally the cure to get rid of love handles?

 

[localboy]

So many questions.

-NO steroids were used. In fact, any/all anti-inflammatory drugs/supplements are a big no for a minimum of 6 weeks post injection. Even OTC ones like Aleve etc. The list is long and includes anything that could even be rumored to be anti-inflammatory, like marijuana, CBD, turmeric etc. along with zero alcohol. Inflammation is part of the process. No heat either. Only ice and Tylenol.

-NO it unfortunately did not eliminate my love-handles. Although I'm no longer 150 lbs like I was upon my high school graduation, I'm not, thankfully, obese either. :lol:

-My knee is definitely and without question less painful. As noted swelling is all but gone and recovery from workouts is much, much quicker. I no longer wake up with knee pain and a limp right out of bed. I can walk up/down stairs without pain. I am riding an exercise bike for up to 1/2 hour, with pretty strenuous rides, without issue. Well, I was, until two weeks ago when I came down with Covid. :roll:

-the treatment will not "replace" cartilage. There is no magic bullet for that, yet. That said, if I get 2...3...5 years of relative pain free life out of it, the cost will have been worth it. Long term I will probably have an ANR. But at almost 61, I am still on the young side for that.

 

[hardee]

Mark, sounds like you are having a very good result. Hope that continues.
Sorry about that Covid. My guess -- Omicron. Extremely transmissible and the most common for breakthrough cases. I am waiting for my test results (due back tomorrow) after being exposed to a friend who is also vaccinated x 2 and boosted x1 but somewhere found one of the bugs and turned a positive test on Wed.

Hope you get through it fine and without any long-term baggage.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[localboy]

Thanks, Harvey. I suspect you are correct. The Admiral came down first; I fell ill two days later. I’m boosted in mid-November, she is not. Fortunately, I suffered from nothing more than a really bad cold, despite my life-long asthma. The wife had it worse and developed a lingering cough. We are both on the mend and the worse is behind us. I hope you suffer from nothing more. God, bless.

Such a strange virus.

 

[hardee]

Thanks Marc, Just got my test results, (NEGATIVE), and glad for that. Glad you had it lite and both on the mend. Thanks to both you and M for what you are doing. Stay safe, and keep counting those days.

Sure wish we knew more about the long term effects.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[smckean (Tosca)]

Sure wish we knew more about the long term effects.

I'm continually amazed that some in the antivaxx crowd worry so much about the long term effects of the vaccine (untested they say), but seem to dismiss possible long term effects of getting a medium to severe case of COVID. (Especially since COVID kills cells in the body as it reproduces whereas the vaccine does not.)

 

[ssobol]

Sure wish we knew more about the long term effects.

I'm continually amazed that some in the antivaxx crowd worry so much about the long term effects of the vaccine (untested they say), but seem to dismiss possible long term effects of getting a medium to severe case of COVID. (Especially since COVID kills cells in the body as it reproduces whereas the vaccine does not.)

Yes, but the virus is natural (although some doubt this) and therefore "God's will", whereas the vaccine is manmade. And you know, there are some people you just can't trust.

 

[smckean (Tosca)]

I am also amazed that many promote monoclonal antibody treatment over the mRNA vaccines.

To make monoclonal antibodies one must clone the antibody protein in a culture of rat cells in the laboratory, process them with various machines and techniques, and then introduce them into your body via a needle. The mRNA vaccine simply gives the instructions to your cells on how to make the very same antibody in your cells (not in rat cells) using your body's natural protein-making biochemical processes (note mRNA can not effect the DNA in the nucleus of your cells).

The monoclonal antibody treatment: requires that you first get infected by the virus; must be administered at exactly the right time during your illness; is expensive; requires multiple treatments (usually in a hospital only setting); and if you are treated either too early or too late, or if in some other way the treatment doesn't work, you typically have a significant chance of getting very ill and hospitalized. OTOH, the vaccine is relatively cheap; can be administered at any time (including before you get infected); and usually stops you from ever getting the virus infection in the first place (or if you do get a break thru infection it is almost always mild and rarely requires hospitalization).