stuck in the hole, getting up on plane

YACD":30qzokbv said:
Marine weather forecasts for oceans include predictions of wave periods. I have yet to see a forecast of wave periods for the Chesapeake Bay. Marine forecasts for the bay give wave heights without periods. Does anyone know why are periods not part of the forecasts?

Roy

_______________________________________________________________________
"Life is complicated. Ideas are simpler. That is why they are attractive."

I'm GUESSING it's because of a combination of the followng.

1. There may not be a set of buoys set up to measure and report it.

2. The waves in Chesapeake Bay are mostly just that: wind waves generated by winds and pretty closely spaced, all the time. Big, long period ocean swells get their long periods because of the distance from their origin. Chesapeake Bay is not large enough for this to occur that much or be significant compared to the prevailing wind wave conditions.

3. Shallow water conditions in much of the Bay stack up the wind waves and affect both their height and period because the limited depth of water inhibits full wave rotation of water particles as the wave passes through. Thus wave height and period may vary from location to location.

4. Some reflection of waves may occur nearer steeper shores (if there are any), affecting the height of waves they pass back through.

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
Charlie's points are well taken. There is another site:
http://www.windfinder.com/forecast/Ches ... dge_tunnel Granted that the Chesapeake Bay bridge is not in the middle of the bay, but it has excellent information. The locations are mostly seaward, because of the site's orientation to surfing. But looking through the various data fields on the home pages, gives a lot of information.

Also in the Chesapeake the wind is often shifting, there are current and tide effects (as in any bay). There are also defraction effects and shoreline drag effect on waves in relitatively confined spaces. For example San Francisco Bay also lacks the specific data which is on the ocean buoy reports. In the ocean, the prolonged wind and fetch does give more predictable wave and wind data.

Also most of the major bays are modeled by the Army Corp of Engineers, and these models could give predictions.
 
Thanks to all for this info.

Joe, I see that you are a wind wave theoretician in addition to all your other skills. You'd think though that NOAA would have a decent numerical model from which they could calculate wave periods at a large set of points over the bay, taking into account the bottom topography as well as all the other stuff.

My own observations are that in specific northern bay locations when wave heights are, say, between 18" and 36" there is a fairly consistent period to the waves, of the order of 3 to 6 seconds. These are not very precise figures since I am usually otherwise occupied when conditions are this bad :mrgreen:.

Charlie: I'd be interested to hear your experiences of wave heights and periods


Roy


______________________________________________________________
"Life is complicated. Ideas are simpler. That is their attraction"
 
thataway":2i7k5bri said:
Lots of great answers above. It is not at all simple--there are many different hull types. It is way beyond the scope of this forum to discuss all types of hull form--that is something that JimmyG needs to do on his own. I sound like a broken record--but at least do some reading--the best book is "the nature of boats" by David Gerr. But there are internet articles about the different hull forms.

From the Hull design forum: "Displacement hulls are designed to travel in the water at a typical hull speed of 1.34 *(square-root LWL) in knots. This formula applies to the distance between bow and stern wave crests. At faster speeds, wave making resistance increases exponentially because the vessel is trying to climb on top of the bow wave - meanwhile the stern is being sucked down by the dynamic forces from the "hole" created in the water as the vessel moves forward. Displacement hulls tend to have pointed bows and sterns because this form poses the least wave making resistance at "displacement" speeds. It takes a relatively small amount of power to push a displacement hull at its "hull speed."

Semi-displacement hulls tend to have wide, flat aft sections - like a New England lobster boat. These hulls are designed to partially climb on top of the bow wave and separate the transom from the stern wave. Semi-displacement speeds are usually in the area of 1.5 to 2.5 *(square-root LWL) in knots. It takes a *lot* of power to drive a hull in the semi-displacement speed range. The flat wide stern sections help to provide additional lift in the stern to partially overcome this problem.

Planing hulls are designed with straight sections aft. A typical deep-V bottom hull has the same angle to the 'V' (the same "deadrise" angle) from midship to transom. They are designed to climb completely out of the water at high speed and "hydroplane" on top of the water. At planing speeds, water is breaking cleanly from the transom and the hull is riding on its straight aft sections. The greatest resistance at planing speeds is frictional resistance. It takes more power to climb out of the water over the bow wave than it does to maintain planing speed once this is achieved. At very high planing speeds (>25kts) any change in deadrise angle in the aft sections of the hull can adversely affect performance. Hulls with a "variable deadrise" angle in the aft sections (where the angle of the 'V' decreases and flattens toward the transom) are a further modification of the semi-displacement hull form. They are more easily driven at speeds < 25kts, but at higher speeds tend to push the bow down due to the higher dynamic lift in the aft sections. Variable deadrise hulls can actually become unsafe at very high speeds >30kts because of this tendency - it is possible for the bow to dig in and cause the boat to broach at high speed."

The Tom Cat is a planing catamaran (Most cats are semi displacement hulls), and is faster than most cats with the same HP (also more economical at higher speeds, but not some lower speeds), but is more likely to slam as you get into higher seas. A 3 foot wave is considerable--and the Tom Cat will handle a 3 foot wave better than any of the other boats you have mentioned. Something like a Glacier bay will do even better, at least going into the waves--but not as well going beam to the seas or down wave. Realistically how often will you be boating in more than 3 foot seas?

The Rosborough is a semidisplacement hull (like a lobster boat--rounded chines, small keel, fairly flat run aft, and deep forefoot). It is going to take more power to push at the same speed as the C Dory--and will not come on a plane at a lower speed, but can be pushed to a plane with enough HP. If you want to run at 8 to 15 knots in moderate seas--this may be your best choice--if the layout and other features of the boat are satisfactory.

The C Dory will plane at a very low speed--it is a semi dory--very seaworthy--but can pound if driven into a steep sea. The way around this is to put the bow down with trim tabs and permitrims--this presents the V of the bow to the seas--it will throw some water, but you are in a pilot house boat--so no problem. On the other hand--the C Dory will ride better down waves than the semidisplacement boat. The C Dory and other boats you name are quite different--and behave differently. The C Dory probably has one of the slowest planing speeds of any boat built,, because of the hard chine (reverse chine)--flat run, with a little rocker and the use of tabs and Permatrims.

JimmyC--you cannot read some forums and then go out and buy a boat. That is a major mistake. You need to ride in every boat you are considering--and some others in all different conditions. Some folks push a certain boat, because they own one--or because they are convinced it is the best boat...for them. There is no "perfect" boat.

You don't want to rush into buying a boat. Take your time, do lots of sea trials and enjoy the process--much less likely to make a mistake.


Great posting! However, with that said, if I waited for three foot seas where I go on the North Gulf Coast for three foot seas, I would never go out. My limit is 5. But, with that said 5 always seems to turn into ????? footers....... At least the CD 22 is a safe boat. But, it sure is slow going in crappy seas in a monohull boat.
 
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