sulfer in fuel

C

commander bill

New member
I will be picking up my Ranger tug soon. Marc is haqving bottom paint put on. Weather here in Tennessee valley is so poor that I look forward to the few days in Florida just to get away. My question to any Yanmar diesel owners in use of off road diesel. In Alabama & Tennessee farmers can buy dyed red off road diesel fuel about 30 cents below road fuel. Since I have 2 Kubota tractors I have a truck bed tank and another fuel storage at my farm where I keep a supply of off-road diesel. According to suppliers this fuel includes mostly old style (high or low sulfur) fuel rather than the ultra-low sulfur fuel that I ude in my powerstroke. I understand the issues of reduced lubricity and how newer designed engines are supposed to handle the lower sulfur content without damage but that is not my question. Does anyone know of a reason (wareenty or otherwise) why I should not put the old style fuel in a Yanmar marine engine. Since I am already setup for transporting fuel for my tractors I would like to use it in the boat. I have seen the warning signs that say the old style fuel may damage the newer 2007 engines but assume that is the fuel company lawyers talking.
 
commander bill":1ussqoed said:
I will be picking up my Ranger tug soon. Marc is haqving bottom paint put on. Weather here in Tennessee valley is so poor that I look forward to the few days in Florida just to get away. My question to any Yanmar diesel owners in use of off road diesel. In Alabama & Tennessee farmers can buy dyed red off road diesel fuel about 30 cents below road fuel. Since I have 2 Kubota tractors I have a truck bed tank and another fuel storage at my farm where I keep a supply of off-road diesel. According to suppliers this fuel includes mostly old style (high or low sulfur) fuel rather than the ultra-low sulfur fuel that I ude in my powerstroke. I understand the issues of reduced lubricity and how newer designed engines are supposed to handle the lower sulfur content without damage but that is not my question. Does anyone know of a reason (wareenty or otherwise) why I should not put the old style fuel in a Yanmar marine engine. Since I am already setup for transporting fuel for my tractors I would like to use it in the boat. I have seen the warning signs that say the old style fuel may damage the newer 2007 engines but assume that is the fuel company lawyers talking.
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The sulphur is a lubricant. The old fuel in 07 & newer will not meet emissions requirements & may plug a Cat. Converter.
I would not hesitate to use real diesel in the boat. It works fine in yanmar powered equipment. :wink: :mrgreen: :beer
 
It has always been my understanding that the agricultural use fuel is dyed in the first place to prove that it is being used inappropriately/ illegally. I think agricultural purpose fuel gets a tax break not applicable to pleasure boats or automobiles, hence the lower price. I always thought if you were caught using dyed fuel in a non agricultural engine that you could be heavily fined for tax evaision. NOT THAT I WOULD EVER CARE. If I were ever lucky enough to own a great boat like yours I'd take the zero risk route. Congrats', G
 
Not to stray off topic, but it is my understanding that what is often called "ag use" is actually non-road use (thus, not having to pay road taxes). When putting propane in our RVs, we pay a lesser price than vehicles using propane for their main engine. That tug may be used as an RV while being towed, but that diesel sure isn't for road use. I would think that qualifies.

Down here, there is a different price for diesel at stations that have fuel for boats and land vehicles; same price for unleaded. BTW, we paid $2.89 for unleaded at the dock yesterday.
 
JamesTXSD":1bwe44w5 said:
Not to stray off topic, but it is my understanding that what is often called "ag use" is actually non-road use (thus, not having to pay road taxes). ....
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When you buy diesel from a marina, it will always be red. What you pump at the gas station for a truck is clear. (At least that is the case here in MA). I run Yanmar diesels in commercial boats and we only get the red fuel.
 
I am not sure what the law is currently--and it seems to vary by states. But at one time, pleasureboats had to run clear diesel, and commercial and charter boats could run dyed diesel. In some areas there was not enough pleasure boat traffic to justify separate tanks, so these fuel docks were given an exemption and all boats could use the dyed diesel.

Illinois, where my farm is, specifically states that you can not used dyed diesel in a pleasure boat (this could have been revoked, but this was what it was last time I checked.). We have dyed diesel tanks on the farm, but they are only for the tractors and agricultural use.

On the other hand, Texas state laws seem to allow dyed diesel in motor boats. Tennessee seems to have some tax on dyed diesel, for any use other than strictly agricultural use. Alabama seems to have the same minimal tax on diesel for agricultural and boats.

There is a thread on one of the yacht builders which implies that any of the currently sold diesel fuels should be OK in the Yanmar diesels. But the best course is to get it in writing from Yanmar.
 
I went to the Yanmar website and submitted an inquiry regarding clear vs red diesel fuel and they were kind enough to reply. I received the following reply from my local Yanmar regional rep here in NJ:

''The CLEAR, over-the -road, and the RED, off-road, diesel fuels are the same with the exception of the red dye that is added to the off- road diesel fuel. As there is no road tax paid on the off-road fuel, the red color allows it to be identified if being used illegally in an on-road vehicle. You can use either the Clear or Red diesel fuel in your Yanmar diesel
engine. We hope this information will be helpful to you.''
 
If you can’t get the old stuff keep a bottle of Stanadyne Fuel Additive handy, it puts the lubrication back in the ALSD. If you can’t find Stanadyne try Marvel mystery oil, it’s what I use in my 2000 Ford Power Stroke.
 
My understanding of this situation is...

First we had a diesel fuel which had sulfur.

Then, to clean up the exhaust, we went to Low Sulfur diesel.

Then, for still cleaner exhaust we now have Ultra Low Sulfur diesel.

In Washington, the newer fuels were first required for over-the-road vehicles, and the previous fuel was supplied for off road use.

Now the fuel docks have the newest fuel. The marine fuel was not as critical as road fuel because the marine engines did not require ULS diesel like the newest diesel cars and trucks, which cannot run on the older fuel.

I think this is the story, but my details are not guaranteed.
If I was buying a new diesel motor I would want to get the fuel specifications in writing from the factory and ask if the warranty depends on the use of a certain fuel.

Older marine and truck engines need a lubricity additive added to the newest fuel as the injectors and injection pumps were designed to be lubricated by the sulfur in the older fuel.

Please verify this information for your engine.
 
BigEddie,
Yanmar's reply is a bit niave, because some dyed diesels are higher sulfer content than the "on the road" clear. Eventually there may be only "one" diesel provided. However this is not the case currently in the US--nor is it the case world wide. Ulta Low Sulfur diesel costs more to refine. There are many engines which are not manditated to use ultra low sulfur diesel.

For instance in Mexico the marine and industerial diesel may still have 5000 PPM of Sulfur. Even the road diesel in Mexico is a phase in from 500 to 15 PPM and will not be complete until Sept 2009 (if then).

The question to Yanmar needs to be: "will the use of high sulfur or low sulfur diesel harm a 2007 engine"?
Then you need to find out what is the sulfur content of the dyed diesel which you might use.
 
BigEddieM37":1swcxqql said:
''The CLEAR, over-the -road, and the RED, off-road, diesel fuels are the same with the exception of the red dye that is added to the off- road diesel fuel. As there is no road tax paid on the off-road fuel, the red color allows it to be identified if being used illegally in an on-road vehicle. '
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This has always been my understanding of the reason for the "red dye".
I purchase "off road diesel" (ie: "red diesel") for my tractor and thereby am not charged road taxes for it. But I certainly would not use it in an "on-road vehicle" as I've heard that if the Wash. State Patrol find you using it the fines are tremendous!
 
Incidentally, at least in MA if you buy fuel for your boat at an automobile service station you can submit the receipt and forms for a road tax refund. I never bothered with my former boat but with the Tomcat, if I do fill up at a service station while under tow for example I will make the effort.
 
Received a reply from Yanmar. They say: Any diesel sold from the pump nowadays, is ok. Diesel #2. Do not use any bio diesel.

Number 2 diesel comes from the same pot whether with dye or without. Red only identifies off road. As mentioned above, tax base ( price ) Is the big difference. Some states may try to get the road tax, but how can they if red is sold at the marinas. Off road, should be the key words.

I would fill the boat in any state with red , off the road fuel. Save the tax money.

Let God sort it out.

captd
 
As captd said, the fuel is all the same now, except the off road has red dye.

In Washington(don't know about other states), the land gas stations emptied their diesel tanks and refilled with the new fuel and their relative large volume of sales diluted any remaining 'old' diesel with the new ULS diesel.

Marine fuel docks were not required to empty the tanks first and just put the new fuel in with the old. This, combined with lower sales volume, results in an unknown blend with unknown sulphur content. This should not be a problem for marine engines, but resist the urge to put any of that fuel(red dyed, no tax) into a new diesel truck or car. As diesel is sold and the tanks refilled, this problem will disappear.
 
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