tomcat as a first boat???

PaulNBriannaLynn,
i am really relying on more experts opinions, than my own. i've gone from the hopes of having a deep sea worthy tomcat (kept in vegas for a terrible west coast commute) to now having my sights set on a 22' cruiser (at least until i'm 20 minutes from shore) i think we all know the unforeseen twists and turns that come along with boat ownership, but that blanket statement, "don't do it, it's too damn expensive" leaves a lot of questions for me. mainly, is there not more prudent approach from the independently skilled, effecting those numbers?

some of my points not quite answered: 1) dry docking VS keeping in a saltwater slip, 2) being a mechanic and active laborer VS paying on all upkeep, 3) having a relatively new, 22' with a single outboard VS a 30' something multiple engines and systems. . . i've seen and heard the horror stories of couples getting in over their head on that slightly too old floating palace, turned money-pit. wouldn't you say there's quite some spread when generalizing all ownership cost? could you comment from this point?

keep in mind where i'm coming from currently. . . between our monthly trip to san diego, hotel and charter costs, i spend $600/month, just to spend 8hrs on the water. $150 of that somewhat wasted on my wife ticket, for just sitting in the galley, while i'm elbow to elbow with fisherman in an overcrowded boat. then increase that to (2) 8hr charters per month, and i'd be spending $1,200/month for our somewhat compromised boating time :(
 
Rick,
Peter and Linda Brownell bought a highly customized 2009 TC255 from our primo dealer, Marc Grove at Wefings, in 2009. They docked next to us at the 2013 Marc Grove Gathering in Appalachicola, Oct 2013. It was a beautiful boat, first class setup for cruising. They ran mostly freshwater Lake Champlain, TS waterway etc. They were 'upgrading' from a 47 ft Marine Trader. It's confusing that Peter referred to his boat as 'Destiny' as well as 'Destiny II'.
When he put it up for sale here a couple of years ago, I raved about what a steal it was for the $98,000 asking price (depending on my memory here, which is not as reliable as 175 Suzuki's). Sales are not searchable.
If this is the same boat now listed as "2009 Tomcat 255 $76,500" down below in the for sale listings (vs 'Tomcat for sale' which appears as a dup by an new poster) you should fly to MN with the cash, meet your surveyor and your engine Master Tech, and NOT buy it until the next lucky owners put it up for sale in 3-4 years for $12,200 when you're ready.
Or, Marc can spec you out his 2017 for somewhat more, and you'll have the pride of a 2017.

A little Compare and Contrast:
We flew up to NC and bought our 2010 Cat O' Mine in 2013 for $105,000, which had 150 engines vs 175's, a junk trailer which we had to invest $3,000 to make road ready and $10,000 to replace, NO radar, NO big MFD, NO AUTOPILOT (assuming you can install one of these blindfolded, parts alone run $5,000), NO Teak/holley Lonseal, extra cleats, a Float-On trailer, transom hot/cold shower, a $400 pull-out sink faucet etc.
You could easily rip out the interior and splash fake fish gut stains over everything.
This 2009 255 with 175's is $76,500.

Best deal I've seen here if legit.
Happy Waiting for a Better Bargain!
John
 
hi john,
thanks for info. i welcome all opinions, leads, advice, etc, as i sort things out. however, as much as i'm gung-ho to be 20 miles out of san diego bay on the powercat of my dreams, the wait is somewhat sealed into my current location. . . the reality is the 1st of my 3 vegas houses goes on the market in 2 weeks. the 2nd over the next year, until i've lightened my load enough to look at a piece of land within half hr to the marina, hauling a tomcat 600 miles roundtrip is just not a safe endevour. having it drydocked out there, while i still reside in LV, out of my reach from laboring over every evening i'm not on the water. . . frustrating torture, worse than not having at all :(

still looking for feedback from anyone on my ownership questions above?
 
nuccifilms":2wuv4kzp said:
PaulNBriannaLynn,
i am really relying on more experts opinions, than my own. i've gone from the hopes of having a deep sea worthy tomcat (kept in vegas for a terrible west coast commute) to now having my sights set on a 22' cruiser (at least until i'm 20 minutes from shore) i think we all know the unforeseen twists and turns that come along with boat ownership, but that blanket statement, "don't do it, it's too damn expensive" leaves a lot of questions for me. mainly, is there not more prudent approach from the independently skilled, effecting those numbers?

some of my points not quite answered: 1) dry docking VS keeping in a saltwater slip, 2) being a mechanic and active laborer VS paying on all upkeep, 3) having a relatively new, 22' with a single outboard VS a 30' something multiple engines and systems. . . i've seen and heard the horror stories of couples getting in over their head on that slightly too old floating palace, turned money-pit. wouldn't you say there's quite some spread when generalizing all ownership cost? could you comment from this point?

keep in mind where i'm coming from currently. . . between our monthly trip to san diego, hotel and charter costs, i spend $600/month, just to spend 8hrs on the water. $150 of that somewhat wasted on my wife ticket, for just sitting in the galley, while i'm elbow to elbow with fisherman in an overcrowded boat. then increase that to (2) 8hr charters per month, and i'd be spending $1,200/month for our somewhat compromised boating time :(
Click to expand...
Rick, maybe I can try and answer some of your questions. First my background. We bought C-Dancer, our 2005 22' C-Dory, brand new at the 2005 Seattle Boat Show. It's probably the most impulsive purchase we've ever made but perhaps our best. We just love our little boat!

I had absolutely no experience boating or maintaining a boat but in 12 seasons, we've taken her all over the Salish Sea in Washington State and British Columbia and even the West Coast of Vancouver Island in open ocean.

For most of the 12 seasons, we've kept the boat dry stored in an indoor, temperature controlled dry stack facility. We love the convenience. We can call 20 minutes ahead and have the boat in the water. We wash and flush her on a work rack upon every return. I've completed a ton of projects on the boat on the work rack. The bottom doesn't need to be bottom painted although ours is because we've also wet moored her for a couple of seasons. Dry storage is more expensive but way more convenient.

As stated above, I've done a lot of projects on the boat including installing several GPS/fishfinder systems, 3 radar systems, adding a 30 amp shorepower system, an auto pilot, a 2 battery vsr system, and a radar arch, just to name a few. Yes I'm handy but to a limit. I have a comprehensive annual maintenance done every season but I don't feel I have the time, the tools, the workspace or all the skills needed to change out an impeller or other more complex engine maintenance. Not that our motors have needed any complex repairs but if they do, I leave it up to the experts.

So in my scenario, I spend much less than $1200 per month for dry storage, gas, and insurance. But when you factor in the cost of trips, moorage, truck costs, trailer repairs, equipment additions, launch fees, boat stuff, equipment upgrades and yearly maintenance, it all starts adding up to a big annual number. As Paul mentioned, it's an expensive addiction but I love it. I do love the fact that it is our boat to cruise and fish as we please and not have to pay a charter captain.

In your case, if you only spent $1200 for 2 fishing trips a month, how many months would you do that, 3? If so, you would be ending up way ahead. Six months, you might be breaking even.

Btw, I'm Filipino- American myself. :)
 
jazzmanic,
thanks, that was a bit more forthcoming. i'm not sure why i keep hearing sth story of guys installing fishfinding systems mutiple times? if you get a boat already with thise bells and whistles, what's going on with those electronics? is it the need to keep having the latest and greatest?

2nd, you mention dry-dock as more expensive. when all considered in weathering, bottom cleaning/painting, i realy think you must come out ahead here? and you have a service you call up. that would a premium to pay, over my own steel shed storage 20 minutes inland, correct?

what you pay per month on boat ownership, say $1,200 sounds what you are willing to pay. with your history of having a new 22', there's no better person to answer my questions. is there a significant yearly savings of having a 22' over a tomcat? and if i'm really prudent with not obsessing over every latest bell and whistle upgrade, do my own maintenance and cleaning, my own storage, keep to 2 outings per month. . . couldn't i shave my ownership down to less than $1,000/month?
 
Your making a good decision on the 22' for your first boat. We loved ours and its a very simple vessel with not a lot to go wrong. You will be able to resell it very easily for what you paid if or when your ready to move up to a Tomcat.

All the talk about upgrading your chart plotters frequently I think that's just a sign of the times. They are improving so quickly it will make your head spin. I was out bottom fishing on a friends boat recently who had just upgraded to a new Garmin. I was floored and the picture quality. We were fishing over the wreck of the U.S.S Betsy Ross 70 feet below or so. The clarity of the sonar image was so clear it was like I was looking at the ship in front of me. I could see every detail of the ship. So my 2009 Furuno on my boat is the equivalent of an early brick cell phone, and the latest chart plotters are like a brand new iphone.

Down here we have dry dock stack houses, and they have advantages and disadvantages. What I hear is your boat doesn't stay as nice as you'd think unless your on the top of the stack. The boats drip and drop things onto the boats below them. I keep our boat in the water a lot, and noticed last week my top speed and mpg had gone way down. After a month in the water here on the Georgia coast I had a significant amount of barnacles growing on my bottom paint. I spent the weekend scraping and sanding the bottom for a new coat. Even doing all this work myself Ill still have a few hundred spent in materials. Next time Ill consider paying someone else to do this miserable job.
 
My point may have been missed. I assure you I don't pay $14,400 per year or $1200 per month for the privilege to own a boat. More like half of that on an average year for all associated costs, or less. But the fact is, I as well as many others, simply love to add and tinker on our boats.

The 22 is very clean and simple and can be very economical if you only hopped on the boat, fished, bought gas and stored it. But boat ownership is never THAT simple. That was my point.

I'm sure you already know all this. Good luck in your search.

Peter
 
top stack vs bottom stack. . . what a great tidbit of what to look out for, if i go there.

however, i don't plan on dry-docking next to the landing or working on my boat there either. paying for that premium, or running back and forth all day to that convenient marina store for stuff marked up %500 is a rich man's game. it sits on a multi-million dollar piece of real estate, what would you expect? there's almost nothing i can't buy or prefab from stainless steel stock or get elsewhere for 10 cents on their dollar.

and most of the 5-10 yr old boats i'm looking at, come with a recent sonar upgrades. i'm thinking i might fair better with today's electronics, than the 2yr obsolescence that's been going on previous decade or so?

seems that everyone cries about expenses, but who's willing to inconvenience themselves, or deny themselves the latest gadgets? it seems from everyone's replies, there's both (mandatory) and (self-induced) costs to distinguish? again, i'm playing with the figure of $1,000/month on a 22' stored and maintained myself on a trailer as my realistic goal, and trying to account for as much mandatory expense as possible.
 
I have a Tomcat after owning a 22 for about 10 years. We've had the Tomcat for about 5 years now. The expense of maintaining and operating the Tomcat is at least double what I spent on the 22. My buddy and I co-own the Tomcat through an LLC. We each contribute $600/month to the "boat account". Over the past several years, we haven't built up much of a balance in that account.

We use the boat A LOT. Probably about 300hours/year on the engines. Engine maintenance each year is about $600/ engine = $1200. We put a life raft on the boat - it need re-packed every 4 years at a cost of $800 ($200/year). Bottom paint gets done every 2 years at a cost of about $1200 (or $600/year). We pay someone to detail the boat each year (except for a few years when I had the time) - that's $1200 year. Trailer tires get replaced every 4-5 years and that's about $800. Plus there's regular maintenance on the trailer. And those costs are just the expected annual maintenance costs.

Year before last I had an engine that required a ring and valve job - that was around $4800. Every year I have to replace one or more of the 7 pumps on board (it will be 8 this year when I add the bait pump) - that's a $120-$150/year. I replaced a wiper motor last year, the fridge failed this year, I've replaced all the electronics on the boat and added redundancy.

Flares get regularly updated, new batteries every 4 years, new life jackets every 3-4 years, the dinghy, dinghy motor, hydraulic steering fluid and occasional repair, etc. One long tuna trip burns through about 100 gallons of gas and 400-500 pounds of ice and two $50/scoop scoops of bait so that's a $400-600 day right there. Moorage can run from anywhere from $500/month to $1000/year depending on where you moor. I paid about $900 for an annual slip at Ilwaco because it's cheaper than monthly moorage for 2 months in the summer. I also will pay a few $100/month at Neah Bay for 2 months and another $400+ at Bellingham for a month + several nightly moorage fees of about $30/night when we visit interesting places. And don't even ask me about what I spend on fishing gear and bait. As the old saying goes - "My biggest fear is that when I die my wife will sell my fishing gear for what I told her I paid for it". My point is that it all adds up very quickly and if you frequently use a Tomcat, it's very easy to burn through $1200/month or more in total expenses.
 
I've been following this post for the last few months. I think that someone ought to mention the drive between Las Vegas and San Diego (Interstate 15 all the way), a person who's done it both with and without a boat. So here I am.

First, if it's only a car it's 332 miles of clogged highway each way, at least 5 hr of sitting/driving in traffic. I've tried to figure out a "good" time and I can't. If it's good in Vegas, it's bad elsewhere. So one ought to fly: $120 to $200 ea r/t. If you have to drive, that's a lot of miles on the car/truck. Personally I don't drive to/from Vegas if I can help it, certainly not more that once a year.

Next, you're going to tow a boat with a truck. Wonderful, now you're limited to 65 mph in Calif. And you have a trailer behind you. I did that when there was something on the other side of Vegas, such as Lake Superior. I would not do that on a regular basis. You will have the CHP and trailer maintenance,; I don't know who's worse.

You want to dry store the boat in San Diego? Where? I've seen dry storage that's as expensive as a slip. You can store it at home, but first you have to buy a home in San Diego. With enough space to store the boat. Or you can join a yacht club.

There's no easy/practical solution. My boat is at home, but we're 40 miles from the ocean.

Boris
 
roger,
i get a bit out of each reply. you were quite generous, and i gotten quite a bit more. probably the big one, "going from a 22' to a tomcat is double in cost" i wasn't thinking quite that much, but 2 engines to 1 is double. now, i won't be using quite as much as you, won't be doing 100 gallon tuna runs, dry docking over wet slip, i don't see myself running 8 pumps on my vessel, live bait. pumps aren't really that expensive online. i hope you're not doing all your buying at the marina? a $4,800 rebuild? i hope that was for both engines? (btw-i do myself, if i can re-cutting the valves, i've done rebuilds under $200)

i don't think i'm nearly at your heavy use of $1,200/month. i'll guess i could stay around $900. and if a 22' is half of that, then i'm less than what i'm spending already on my monthly charter??? (with hotel, travel etc) if i'm careful, prudent, work hard at my maintenance, could i be looking at as little as $500/month on a 22'?

much appreciate all that detailed expense. to be fair, maybe i'll have to factor in some unforeseen expense i'll have that you don't? either way, can we agree there's a lot of wiggle room on what you decide to spend? you said yourself, you tend to indulge on the fishing gear end, the latest sonar, etc.
 
i hate the drive. my wife with sunglasses and her feet on the dash the while way, has a slightly different perspective in saying "it's not so bad" i leave out friday after work and return on monday morning. i've never caught terrible traffic, but i almost always see it going the other way. i'd say give that timing a try, if your from vegas. it's been pretty reliable. now, i think if you're in CA, trying to spend a weekend in LV, i think you're just screwed

the advice i've gotten has been invaluable. but honestly, i don't know how many future trips will be made wih a trailored 22' before i either store in CA, or move entirely. if pushes me to move any sooner, all the better :) someone commented, "oh no, you'll pay property tax on your boat, once it's there!" really? on a 10yr and old 22'. what's that $400? i'll spend that on diesel each trip, not to mention truck and trailer wear and tear. a very lop-sided argument there.
 
nuccifilms":7cucfa6n said:
roger,
i get a bit out of each reply. you were quite generous, and i gotten quite a bit more. probably the big one, "going from a 22' to a tomcat is double in cost" i wasn't thinking quite that much, but 2 engines to 1 is double.
Click to expand...
I had twin Honda 40's on my 22. Twin 135's on the Tomcat.
nuccifilms":7cucfa6n said:
now, i won't be using quite as much as you, won't be doing 100 gallon tuna runs, dry docking over wet slip, i don't see myself running 8 pumps on my vessel, live bait. pumps aren't really that expensive online. i hope you're not doing all your buying at the marina?
Click to expand...

While you might not see yourself running 8 pumps, if you get a Tomcat, it will likely come with at least 7. On mine there are:
2 bilge pumps
2 macerator pumps- one for each fish box
1 raw water wash down pump
1 pump for the fresh water system and
1 for the shower sump.
When I add the bait pump, I'll have 8.
That compares to a typical 22 with 1-2 bilge pumps and a long lived for pump for fresh water, I buy all my pumps online. A whale grouper fish box pump runs about $150. A good 1500gpb bilge pump will run about $100.
nuccifilms":7cucfa6n said:
a $4,800 rebuild? i hope that was for both engines? (btw-i do myself, if i can re-cutting the valves, i've done rebuilds under $200.
Click to expand...
Nope that was rings and valves plus some other bits and pieces on one engine. There was a time when I had access to a cylinder hone, a hoist etc and could possibly have done the job myself. But that time has long since passed. Also, I value my time at what I get paid so I can't really compete when the shop hourly rate is well below mine. Also you probably can't buy the various Honda marine parts for less than a few $100.
nuccifilms":7cucfa6n said:
i don't think i'm nearly at your heavy use of $1,200/month. i'll guess i could stay around $900. and if a 22' is half of that, then i'm less than what i'm spending already on my monthly charter??? (with hotel, travel etc) if i'm careful, prudent, work hard at my maintenance, could i be looking at as little as $500/month on a 22'?

much appreciate all that detailed expense. to be fair, maybe i'll have to factor in some unforeseen expense i'll have that you don't? either way, can we agree there's a lot of wiggle room on what you decide to spend? you said yourself, you tend to indulge on the fishing gear end, the latest sonar, etc.
Click to expand...
Yes you can run at somewhat lower expense but as others before my have already indicated, you're dreaming if you think it will be cheaper than/comparable to chartering.
 
err on the side of caution, i expect to spend more for boat ownership over charters. that wasn't a goal. just a measure. the amount of enjoyment my wife would get on our own boat, being able to prepare food, envite her friends, live and sleep on the water, her pride of ownership. . . there is just no comparison at all to being on a chartered fishing boat with a bunch fishermen. i could live with chartering another 5 yrs, but it's a MUCH bigger compromise to her. i'll downsize and skimp to whatever works, even if we are 100 yards out in the harbor on a rowboat, catching baitfish.
 
I do enjoy going on charter boats... when you get back you just get off and walk away... no washing, scrubbing,filling or draining...and especially no fixing all the stuff that broke or won't work....

I consider my 22' like my rocket ship....easy to tow and easy to get in and around stuff that bigger boats just won't or can't go...not sure I have ever gone anywhere without hitting the prop on something...part of the adventure...

Towing a Tom Cat would be like towing a house...go down to the dealer and just stand in front of a Tom Cat on a trailer...they are huge...now imagine that monster in back of you on a two lane mountain road...scarry

I wanted a 25 when we first were looking...my wise wife said lets buy a 22' and in a year we will decide to trade it in or keep it.... she was spot on...I am really glad I did not buy that 25'....and that was not even a Tom Cat..
 
i'm right with you on the 22', now that i see the 25's impractical towing ability.

as for my love/hate feelings on charters. i'll be doing them another 6 months or more. it's $150 waisted on my wife to just watch, tangled and cut lines from an overcrowded boat with fisherman casting out of their shoulder to shoulder space. it's a 22' in the next year, and like you, se how it goes. i'm still optimistic about the tomcat when i'm 20 minutes from shore.
 
My only fear when far offshore is the thought of an engine failure...that is why I have twins..... but as far as the boat itself...never fear...that boat will far outlast you...the 22' handles rough water like a cork...might be a rough ride but the boat will do fine...it's really safe... I moved up from a Boston Whaler and while it was safe, it was wet and miserable...now I can be dry and miserable...(not really)..but the boat's safety offshore has never been a question...
 
I would not call a CD-25 impractical to tow. I tow mine about 6,000 miles a year behind my 2012 F-150 4x4 with over 9,000 pounds of towing capacity. Most of the newer F150s will tow more than that. Will be heading back to Lake Superior from Florida in a couple weeks. The C-Otter has a great trailer with EOH brakes. We had a 22 before this and it was a great boat but now that we spend 4 months or more boaterhoming we wanted some more room. We like the F-150 because of the good ride and fuel burn when not towing. When towing we get about 9.5 MPG at 65mph. The 25 is no harder for us to launch than the 22 we had.

I do not condone towing with a vehicle that is not rated for the load. If a driver feels better towing with a 3/4 or 1 ton that's great.

These are all great boats. Try to get a ride before making the final decision. The 22, 25 and Tom Cat all handle differently. I was happy with the 22 till I got a ride on Tom Smiths 25!

Have fun with your boat search....Tom
 
everything you said is why i'm on track for a 22' i've planned a 9hp kicker. the extra space and stability of the tomcat is something i can dream about for a few years. although, if my wife gets seasick on a 60', even a powercat won't be any answer. my schedule will be 30-40 miles out at optimal weather, or a few rock fish couple miles from shore on any day less than optimal. thanks for thr feedback and encouragement.
 
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