From: sealifemike (Original Message) Sent: 3/4/2003 2:58 PM
Sealife sits on a single axle EZ Loader roller trailer 3700# rating (I think) and tows satisfactorily for short trips, but I'm taking her up to the Calif. Delta next month and want to prepare her for a safe trip. As long as I stay under 60mph and tow in all-wheel-drive on my Mitsubishi Montero Ltd, it does fine, but it is suseptible to sway over that speed, or in crosswinds, etc. I was thinking of adding sway bars, but investigating on-line, I saw that it is not recommended for trailers with surge brakes. Can any of C-DOGS who have alot of trailering experience give me some input on this?
Mike - Sealife
From: Sawdust Sent: 3/4/2003 3:55 PM
Many do sway at that speed, Mike --
All of my personal experience with sway control is with electric brakes, so no personal knowledge except what I read. It is easy to see why the sway control would mess up the surge brake action. How is your weight distribution? Any possible way to shift the boat forward, or wheels aft? Sometimes just a little weight shift means a lot...
Dusty
From: C-DOG_Ken Sent: 3/4/2003 4:25 PM
Hi, Mike
Isn't the Calif. speed limit for towing 55 mph???
That aside, I have the same trailer that you have, but tow with a "heavy" half-ton
F-150 (6,500# GVWR). I generally travel at 65 mph, and the shortest one-way trip is about 160 miles. No sway. That Montero probably has a much softer suspension than my truck, and I would suspect that is the source of your sway. I also keep the trailer tires pretty close to max. pressure, at around 60 psi (Goodyear Marathons).
Ken
From: Sawdust Sent: 3/4/2003 5:45 PM
Ken,
Gotta agree - soft suspension plus radial tires (even if inflated to max) would sure contribute. Maybe a couple of airlifts?
Dusty
From: sealifemike Sent: 3/4/2003 5:47 PM
Thanks, guys,
The first time I trailered my boat with the Montero, I did so in 2 wheel drive, and after going over the crest of a steep downgrade, it really started to sway......scared the hell out of me. Slowing down stopped it, but I soon after discovered that putting the trans into all wheel drive resulted in much more control and practically eliminated the sway....at least within the speed limit. I know that it is beneficial to move weight forward onto the hitch to lessen the tendency to sway, but was hoping that sway bars would solve it completely. But, it seems they don't work with surge breaks. Is that your understanding also?
Mike - Sealife
From: C-DOG_Ken Sent: 3/4/2003 6:38 PM
Hi, Mike,
Sway and surge brakes are two different animals, unless you have so much sway that the swing of the trailer is activating the surge brakes. In that case, better stick to the speed limit.
Trailer sway is exaggerated once you get over the hill, because the trailer starts pushing the tow vehicle, which activates, then de-activates the brake mechanism. (Surge brakes are activated by increased pressure on the hitch, caused by the tow vehicle slowing). Once you get into the activating/deactivating mode, the trailer gets a little goofy.
The only other suggestion I can make is that you check your surge brake setting adjustment (almost impossible to find in your trailer documentation), and go from there.
The guy who works on all my R.V.s calls my boat trailer a piece of s................t. That's southwest drawl for s..t. He hates surge brakes, and says electric is the way to go. And this guy spends 10 hours a day on really big rigs.
So far, I don't agree with him, since I have yet to have any towing problems.
Other than what I said above, my only other suggestion is to plan another 40 or 50 minutes for your trip. That could save a whole lot of $$$$$$$$$$$
Have a great Gathering! Wish I could be there. Regards to the NorCal bunch.
Ken
From: sealifemike Sent: 3/4/2003 6:57 PM
Ken,
Thanks for the advise. The sway is gone as long as I stick to the speed limit, and it hasn't affected the surge brakes yet to my knowledge. I can see where the additon of sway bars would interfere with the action of surge brakes, so I guess I'll just have to stick to the snail lane.
Mike - Sealife
From: Mike Sent: 3/4/2003 7:05 PM
Mike -
We tow our 22 Cruiser with a 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee. The boat is almost always full of fuel and water, and loaded for boaterhoming whenever we tow. We have a single axle, 3700# EZ Loader with no brakes of any kind. I don't know how heavy the Jeep is, but it can't be much bigger than the Montero. Maybe you ought to experiment with tongue weight. I haven't weighed mine, because it tows so well. But it is all I can do to pick it up using my legs, so I'm guessing around three hundred pounds.
I have never had any problems towing, even the few times I caught myself doing 70 or a little over on the freeway. Trucks passing don't affect it, either. A couple of times, at lower speeds, I have induced swaying by weaving the Jeep just to see how she handled it. A little acceleration pulls it right straight. I do intend to put brakes on the trailer before too long. I have not had to make any sudden stops yet, but worry about the first time I do. I try to leave plenty of room ahead, but when they pass me on the freeway and cut in front it makes me nervous.
Mike
From: Sawdust Sent: 3/4/2003 7:06 PM
Mike,
Guess I don't agree totally with your expert. Depends upon what and how you tow. Electric brakes are usually great when you start to sway because you can tap the electric controller and usually straighten the rig out. Same with air, of course. OTOH, coming over a hill on the OR coast, the wind was very gusty and my tow started to sway -- got out of control -- and I ended up with a totalled rig, both tow vehicle and trailer. Bummer. And I had equalizer bars and sway controls working.
The bar load-equalizers help a bit, but the friction sway control hasn't done me much good. There might be an after-market add-on sway bar for your tow vehicle -- I'm not familiar with it. If going to 4-wheel makes a difference, it seems to me that you are kind of on the edge. Air shocks, which are relatively inexpensive, might do the trick... with nearly a million tow miles, many times coast-to-coast, I've found that each rig is totally different -- and what fixes one screws up the other one. Good luck!
Dusty
From: C-DOG_Ken Sent: 3/4/2003 7:09 PM
Hi, Mike
What's so cool about being in the "slow" lane is the number of folks that give the out their window as they pass. (Limit here in NM is 75 for anybody. Slow is 65).
I've had folks follow me into rest areas just to ask about these neat boats. Don't know how many "c'mon aboard" tours I've given.
Anyway, have a great trip!
Ken
From: Mike Sent: 3/4/2003 7:18 PM
Mike again -
There's a bit of talk about tongue weight, as well as some web references, on another thread on this board (you've probably already read it). I just noticed that in a post there, I guessed my tongue weight at 200#. I think I was just being modest when I said that!
I don't know beans about towing dynamics, but simple physics would say that too heavy a tongue could induce tow vehicle sway or wandering - with the load following - and that might be why engaging the front wheels helps out. A couple of times when the temp was low enough to make frost possible, I have put the Jeep into full time 4WD, and didn't notice a difference with the towing. I will not forget this discussion, though. If I do get myself into difficulties when towing, that is sure an easy thing to do.
Mike again
From: C-DOG_Ken Sent: 3/4/2003 7:19 PM
Just as an afterthought, I can only think of one mishap of any consequence reported by a C-Dory owner while towing. And that was when "Rush On" Frank got slammed from behind in some major downhill highway construction situation.
Bottom line, if you drive reasonably well, chances are you won't have problems. The "other guy" continues to be the major challenge.
Once again, have a great trip. Regards to the NorCal folks.
Ken
From: Chuck S Sent: 3/4/2003 7:40 PM
Trailer sway is caused by inadequate (not enough) weight on the trailer's tongue. On boat trailers, with the center of gravity way aft, the minimum range is 5% - 7% of total weight on the ball. (Camper trailers need 10% - 15%.)
3000 pound boat/trailer needs 150 - 210 pounds on the ball. You'll have to do some math on your's. If you don't weigh the boat/trailer and the tongue weight you're just guessing. And are probably guessing light on the total boat/trailer weight. If you're swaying add some tongue weight. This may require moving the axle aft, an easy chore on most boat trailers. Getting it straight takes some time.
http://www.sherline.com/lmbook.htm
There are sway controls for surge brake trailers:
http://www.equalizerhitch.com/boat.html
-- Chuck
From: C-DOG_Ken Sent: 3/4/2003 8:07 PM
Hi, Mike
Chuck is certainly right. That tongue weight is probably the most critical parameter.
On the other hand, if you have a tow vehicle with a soft suspension, increasing the tongue weight will do two things: screw up your steering, giving understeer, and causing front tire cupping. The weight on the hitch greatly influences both. (Increasing the weight aft of the rear wheels raises the front end and screws up the original design for steering and tire wear).
Certainly not a big deal, if it's just a few 1,000 mile trips or so.
I've put about 20,000 miles on my rig since I got it, and rely on my suspension and alignment guys to guide me.
For what it's worth.
Ken
From: sealifemike Sent: 3/5/2003 8:44 AM
Again, guys, thanks for all your responses. You've got me really thinking. From what you say:
* Too much tongue weight is as bad as too little. Both induce sway.
* Since refitting Sealife with twin four strokes (which added extra weight aft), I have not experienced an increase in the tendency to sway, as a matter of fact, I've noticed alot less. That may mean it was heavy before and better balanced now, but I will definitely have it checked on a scale.
* I checked out the sway control hitch and note that it is part of a weight equalizer hitch. My rig seems well balanced, with no rear end sag at all, so I'd hate to put a whole new espensive hitch on.
* My best guess is that the rig was tongue heavy forward before changing to four stroke twins. Up forward, I have an anchor windlass, 14# Delta, sampson post, 250' rode + 30' chain, a storage box on the trailer cross member, and a spare tire. Plus I carry my 50 pound dingy in the cuddy with other assorted stuff. That's alot of extra weight.
Mike - Sealife
From: Redƒox Sent: 3/5/2003 9:34 AM
Hey Tech Brats.
Forgive me for missing this if it's already been discussed, but I was wondering if another axle would be a better less swaying boat trailer?
From: Hound Sent: 9/29/2003 3:19 PM
I have a dual axle trailer and a four inch drop on the hitch and it is as solid as a rock. Drove 800 miles in 14 hours las Saturday with hard rain the day before and wind gusts to 50 miles per hour. Trailer and 22' C-Dory cruised right along at 75 mph without a single sway.
From: C-Wolf1 Sent: 9/30/2003 4:46 AM
Hound- Sounds like a sweethear set-up! Tandem trailers sway less, period. Good, solid, tongue weight (within reason) is a major player in stability. Any idea how much tongue weight you have? What type of tow vehicle are you using? Joe
From: Alma's Only Sent: 9/30/2003 9:08 AM
There's a lot of well reasoned info on this on the web site from some real experts.
I don't have a whole lot of experience trailering, but have the same trailer as you, and tow with a 1996 Grand Cherokee, which has a v8 and towing package (transmission cooler, oversized radiator, etc.). The boat and trailer came from the dealer with over 400 pounds on the tongue, which was way too much. They said it was 300, but the scales said otherwise. Here's what worked for me.
With the boat off the trailer, I moved the winch mount back, reloaded, and then winched the boat forward to get the approximate tongue weight I wanted, which was 285 pounds, with the boat fully loaded and fueled. Since I didn't have a scale at the marina, I measured the tougue vertical deflection under a known 300 pound load at home, and them cranked the boat forward until I got that same deflection at the marina, moved the winch mount back to get contact with the boat, and checked with scales at home. The water fill cap sits about one inch forward of the trailer axle. For me, this only ended up moving the boat back on the trailer a few inches, and didn't requrie moving the trailer's axle to keep the boat positioned properly on it's bed.
Doesn't hurt to go to a public scale, avaliable at many truck stops, and get weights before and after you make any adjustments. You can get a three axle reading (front, rear, and trailer), then pull off, drop the trailer, and return for just a front and rear axle reading. If you tell them what you're doing, you can get the vehicle-only done on the same charge ticket, for a buck or so extra.
Don't know what will work for you, but do know that too little or too much tougue weight will cause instability. Also, have found that setting the cruise control at 55, and disengaging the 5th gear overdrive, makes everything go better for the tow vehicle, and for me. I have pulled at 75mph, but decided to let the world pass me by on the highway, while I anticipate passing it by on the water.
Good luck.
From: Alma's Only Sent: 9/30/2003 9:11 AM
Alma's Only is a 22 foot cruiser, and presume SeaLife is the same. If not, the particulars regarding tougue weight and position on the trailer will not apply.
From: JimDory Sent: 9/30/2003 11:10 AM
I've trailered boats of all sizes for many years. Maybe I can help here.
The right trailer can help make it easier. A double axle trailer puts more rubber on the road, and helps settle things down in crosswinds. Electric trailer brakes which can be controlled separately from the tow vehicle brakes are also useful.
But the best trailering tricks are absolutely free, and cannot be replaced by any gadgets.
1. Use a good solid tow vehicle, with good mirrors and brakes. A large engine is nice, but not essential. The transmission is more important than the engine.
2. Load the trailer properly with some, but not too much, weight on the tongue. Tie everything down. A loose anchor in the boat can do incredible damage on the road.
3. Drive smart and smooth, not fast and foolish. Drive Stay 5-10 mph below the speed limit -- you and your vehicles will have more time to do a good job. Operate your boat safely on the trailer, just as you would on the water. You and your boating friends will have a better trip and more fun.
Jim Heldberg
Delta Pacific Yachts, Alameda, CA
From: Redƒox Sent: 9/30/2003 11:12 AM
Mike what are your tires rated at?
I know after I got the "passenger" rated tires off the Tundra and went on with some "D" rated ones, the diff' was amazing!! those wimpy soft tires are the reason for a lot of sway and woble....
From: Fun Patrol Sent: 10/1/2003 10:18 AM
A couple of notes on trailering issues:
You can check your tonque weight with a bathroom scale, even if it doesn't read to 300 #. Just divide the load in half with a 2 by 4, put a jack on one side a foot out from center and the scale on the other side a foot out, maybe with some blocks for height adjustment. The scale is now reading half the load, etc. Be sure and read tandems at the hitch height you tow at, as some will even sit high and dry in the air when uncoupled. There are various formulas, anywhere from 5 to 10%.
To adjust the tongue weight, move the axle. Moving the winch stand adusts the position of the boat on the bunks or rollers.
Too little tongue weight is THE major cause of trailer sway. A light tow vehicle with soft suspension can be a real challenge to settle down.
Contrary to popular belief, there IS a weight distribution hitch that works with surge brakes. www.equalizerhitch.com, (800) 478-5578.
Towing a trailer without brakes that weighs more than the tow vehicle will be a real E-ticket ride. You might want to review some NASCAR wreck tapes to see what's in store. It's not "if" but "when" someone pulls out in front of you. Here in Southern CA, that happens quite often.
Roy
From: sealifemike Sent: 10/1/2003 4:10 PM
Sealife is an Angler model, so slightly less weight aft. Weighed her at a truck stop. Results:
Total weight boat & trailer w/fuel = 4500lbs
Tongue wieght = 440lbs
When I prepare to tow a long distance, I inflate the tires on the tow vechicle to their maximums. This really helps stabilize the ride and speaks to Greg's advise on tire ratings. I'm sure having a tandem axel trailer would help alot also, as driving in all wheel drive on my Montero helps alot.
The rig handles well enough at legal speeds (55), and I don't think I'd ever want to tow at 75mph. If, and when I ever move up to the 25 footer, there will definitely be a tandem axel under her, and a big heavy V-8 in front.
Mike - Sealife
From: Redƒox Sent: 10/2/2003 4:54 AM
Mike, I to, had my tires at maximum inflation.... (like our economy).. lol Anyway, if you ever do need new tires, you will notice a hug diff', that stiffer tires make in towing.
OK I said it... now I'm gone
From: riverrat Sent: 10/2/2003 6:08 AM
More comments on trailer surge brakes and equalizer hitches. These systems are designed to move some of the trailer tongue weight to the front axle of the tow vehicle, and do so by using torsion bars whcih also act as sway control bars. They are tensioned with over-center cam latches & chains, so the degree of weight shift and sway control is somewhat adjustable. The chains allow plenty of movement for the surge brake mechanism to telescope as required. I pulled a 9000 lb triple axle boat trailer (Larson 280) with a 1-ton dually (6000 lb dry) for five seasons and had no sway issues or brake issues ever. I had a tongue weight of 850 lbs. Use factory engineered complete equalizer systems (ball platform, trailer hitch) on a frame mounted Class IV receiver only, don't mix parts from different manufacturers. I will say it is sure nice to get back to two axles, and no load equalizer. The GMC dually 7.4L doesn't even notice the C-Dory.
Regards toAll
Riverrat on Chinook
From: Chuck S Sent: 10/3/2003 6:18 AM
I experienced trailer sway with my 3500 pound camper on one (1) trip earlier this year. Never had it before, I was puzzled. I'd skipped the check on the Explorer's tire pressure 'cuz she was just out of Ford service..... When I checked them the next morning I had 30 front/25 rear rather than the required 30/35. No sway on the return trip, but there was 35psi in the rear tires, just like it specifies on the data plate on the driver's door.
I'd checked the trailer's tire pressure. Just got lazy.....
-- Chuck
Sealife sits on a single axle EZ Loader roller trailer 3700# rating (I think) and tows satisfactorily for short trips, but I'm taking her up to the Calif. Delta next month and want to prepare her for a safe trip. As long as I stay under 60mph and tow in all-wheel-drive on my Mitsubishi Montero Ltd, it does fine, but it is suseptible to sway over that speed, or in crosswinds, etc. I was thinking of adding sway bars, but investigating on-line, I saw that it is not recommended for trailers with surge brakes. Can any of C-DOGS who have alot of trailering experience give me some input on this?
Mike - Sealife
From: Sawdust Sent: 3/4/2003 3:55 PM
Many do sway at that speed, Mike --
All of my personal experience with sway control is with electric brakes, so no personal knowledge except what I read. It is easy to see why the sway control would mess up the surge brake action. How is your weight distribution? Any possible way to shift the boat forward, or wheels aft? Sometimes just a little weight shift means a lot...
Dusty
From: C-DOG_Ken Sent: 3/4/2003 4:25 PM
Hi, Mike
Isn't the Calif. speed limit for towing 55 mph???
That aside, I have the same trailer that you have, but tow with a "heavy" half-ton
F-150 (6,500# GVWR). I generally travel at 65 mph, and the shortest one-way trip is about 160 miles. No sway. That Montero probably has a much softer suspension than my truck, and I would suspect that is the source of your sway. I also keep the trailer tires pretty close to max. pressure, at around 60 psi (Goodyear Marathons).
Ken
From: Sawdust Sent: 3/4/2003 5:45 PM
Ken,
Gotta agree - soft suspension plus radial tires (even if inflated to max) would sure contribute. Maybe a couple of airlifts?
Dusty
From: sealifemike Sent: 3/4/2003 5:47 PM
Thanks, guys,
The first time I trailered my boat with the Montero, I did so in 2 wheel drive, and after going over the crest of a steep downgrade, it really started to sway......scared the hell out of me. Slowing down stopped it, but I soon after discovered that putting the trans into all wheel drive resulted in much more control and practically eliminated the sway....at least within the speed limit. I know that it is beneficial to move weight forward onto the hitch to lessen the tendency to sway, but was hoping that sway bars would solve it completely. But, it seems they don't work with surge breaks. Is that your understanding also?
Mike - Sealife
From: C-DOG_Ken Sent: 3/4/2003 6:38 PM
Hi, Mike,
Sway and surge brakes are two different animals, unless you have so much sway that the swing of the trailer is activating the surge brakes. In that case, better stick to the speed limit.
Trailer sway is exaggerated once you get over the hill, because the trailer starts pushing the tow vehicle, which activates, then de-activates the brake mechanism. (Surge brakes are activated by increased pressure on the hitch, caused by the tow vehicle slowing). Once you get into the activating/deactivating mode, the trailer gets a little goofy.
The only other suggestion I can make is that you check your surge brake setting adjustment (almost impossible to find in your trailer documentation), and go from there.
The guy who works on all my R.V.s calls my boat trailer a piece of s................t. That's southwest drawl for s..t. He hates surge brakes, and says electric is the way to go. And this guy spends 10 hours a day on really big rigs.
So far, I don't agree with him, since I have yet to have any towing problems.
Other than what I said above, my only other suggestion is to plan another 40 or 50 minutes for your trip. That could save a whole lot of $$$$$$$$$$$
Have a great Gathering! Wish I could be there. Regards to the NorCal bunch.
Ken
From: sealifemike Sent: 3/4/2003 6:57 PM
Ken,
Thanks for the advise. The sway is gone as long as I stick to the speed limit, and it hasn't affected the surge brakes yet to my knowledge. I can see where the additon of sway bars would interfere with the action of surge brakes, so I guess I'll just have to stick to the snail lane.
Mike - Sealife
From: Mike Sent: 3/4/2003 7:05 PM
Mike -
We tow our 22 Cruiser with a 2000 Jeep Grand Cherokee. The boat is almost always full of fuel and water, and loaded for boaterhoming whenever we tow. We have a single axle, 3700# EZ Loader with no brakes of any kind. I don't know how heavy the Jeep is, but it can't be much bigger than the Montero. Maybe you ought to experiment with tongue weight. I haven't weighed mine, because it tows so well. But it is all I can do to pick it up using my legs, so I'm guessing around three hundred pounds.
I have never had any problems towing, even the few times I caught myself doing 70 or a little over on the freeway. Trucks passing don't affect it, either. A couple of times, at lower speeds, I have induced swaying by weaving the Jeep just to see how she handled it. A little acceleration pulls it right straight. I do intend to put brakes on the trailer before too long. I have not had to make any sudden stops yet, but worry about the first time I do. I try to leave plenty of room ahead, but when they pass me on the freeway and cut in front it makes me nervous.
Mike
From: Sawdust Sent: 3/4/2003 7:06 PM
Mike,
Guess I don't agree totally with your expert. Depends upon what and how you tow. Electric brakes are usually great when you start to sway because you can tap the electric controller and usually straighten the rig out. Same with air, of course. OTOH, coming over a hill on the OR coast, the wind was very gusty and my tow started to sway -- got out of control -- and I ended up with a totalled rig, both tow vehicle and trailer. Bummer. And I had equalizer bars and sway controls working.
The bar load-equalizers help a bit, but the friction sway control hasn't done me much good. There might be an after-market add-on sway bar for your tow vehicle -- I'm not familiar with it. If going to 4-wheel makes a difference, it seems to me that you are kind of on the edge. Air shocks, which are relatively inexpensive, might do the trick... with nearly a million tow miles, many times coast-to-coast, I've found that each rig is totally different -- and what fixes one screws up the other one. Good luck!
Dusty
From: C-DOG_Ken Sent: 3/4/2003 7:09 PM
Hi, Mike
What's so cool about being in the "slow" lane is the number of folks that give the out their window as they pass. (Limit here in NM is 75 for anybody. Slow is 65).
I've had folks follow me into rest areas just to ask about these neat boats. Don't know how many "c'mon aboard" tours I've given.
Anyway, have a great trip!
Ken
From: Mike Sent: 3/4/2003 7:18 PM
Mike again -
There's a bit of talk about tongue weight, as well as some web references, on another thread on this board (you've probably already read it). I just noticed that in a post there, I guessed my tongue weight at 200#. I think I was just being modest when I said that!
I don't know beans about towing dynamics, but simple physics would say that too heavy a tongue could induce tow vehicle sway or wandering - with the load following - and that might be why engaging the front wheels helps out. A couple of times when the temp was low enough to make frost possible, I have put the Jeep into full time 4WD, and didn't notice a difference with the towing. I will not forget this discussion, though. If I do get myself into difficulties when towing, that is sure an easy thing to do.
Mike again
From: C-DOG_Ken Sent: 3/4/2003 7:19 PM
Just as an afterthought, I can only think of one mishap of any consequence reported by a C-Dory owner while towing. And that was when "Rush On" Frank got slammed from behind in some major downhill highway construction situation.
Bottom line, if you drive reasonably well, chances are you won't have problems. The "other guy" continues to be the major challenge.
Once again, have a great trip. Regards to the NorCal folks.
Ken
From: Chuck S Sent: 3/4/2003 7:40 PM
Trailer sway is caused by inadequate (not enough) weight on the trailer's tongue. On boat trailers, with the center of gravity way aft, the minimum range is 5% - 7% of total weight on the ball. (Camper trailers need 10% - 15%.)
3000 pound boat/trailer needs 150 - 210 pounds on the ball. You'll have to do some math on your's. If you don't weigh the boat/trailer and the tongue weight you're just guessing. And are probably guessing light on the total boat/trailer weight. If you're swaying add some tongue weight. This may require moving the axle aft, an easy chore on most boat trailers. Getting it straight takes some time.
http://www.sherline.com/lmbook.htm
There are sway controls for surge brake trailers:
http://www.equalizerhitch.com/boat.html
-- Chuck
From: C-DOG_Ken Sent: 3/4/2003 8:07 PM
Hi, Mike
Chuck is certainly right. That tongue weight is probably the most critical parameter.
On the other hand, if you have a tow vehicle with a soft suspension, increasing the tongue weight will do two things: screw up your steering, giving understeer, and causing front tire cupping. The weight on the hitch greatly influences both. (Increasing the weight aft of the rear wheels raises the front end and screws up the original design for steering and tire wear).
Certainly not a big deal, if it's just a few 1,000 mile trips or so.
I've put about 20,000 miles on my rig since I got it, and rely on my suspension and alignment guys to guide me.
For what it's worth.
Ken
From: sealifemike Sent: 3/5/2003 8:44 AM
Again, guys, thanks for all your responses. You've got me really thinking. From what you say:
* Too much tongue weight is as bad as too little. Both induce sway.
* Since refitting Sealife with twin four strokes (which added extra weight aft), I have not experienced an increase in the tendency to sway, as a matter of fact, I've noticed alot less. That may mean it was heavy before and better balanced now, but I will definitely have it checked on a scale.
* I checked out the sway control hitch and note that it is part of a weight equalizer hitch. My rig seems well balanced, with no rear end sag at all, so I'd hate to put a whole new espensive hitch on.
* My best guess is that the rig was tongue heavy forward before changing to four stroke twins. Up forward, I have an anchor windlass, 14# Delta, sampson post, 250' rode + 30' chain, a storage box on the trailer cross member, and a spare tire. Plus I carry my 50 pound dingy in the cuddy with other assorted stuff. That's alot of extra weight.
Mike - Sealife
From: Redƒox Sent: 3/5/2003 9:34 AM
Hey Tech Brats.
Forgive me for missing this if it's already been discussed, but I was wondering if another axle would be a better less swaying boat trailer?
From: Hound Sent: 9/29/2003 3:19 PM
I have a dual axle trailer and a four inch drop on the hitch and it is as solid as a rock. Drove 800 miles in 14 hours las Saturday with hard rain the day before and wind gusts to 50 miles per hour. Trailer and 22' C-Dory cruised right along at 75 mph without a single sway.
From: C-Wolf1 Sent: 9/30/2003 4:46 AM
Hound- Sounds like a sweethear set-up! Tandem trailers sway less, period. Good, solid, tongue weight (within reason) is a major player in stability. Any idea how much tongue weight you have? What type of tow vehicle are you using? Joe
From: Alma's Only Sent: 9/30/2003 9:08 AM
There's a lot of well reasoned info on this on the web site from some real experts.
I don't have a whole lot of experience trailering, but have the same trailer as you, and tow with a 1996 Grand Cherokee, which has a v8 and towing package (transmission cooler, oversized radiator, etc.). The boat and trailer came from the dealer with over 400 pounds on the tongue, which was way too much. They said it was 300, but the scales said otherwise. Here's what worked for me.
With the boat off the trailer, I moved the winch mount back, reloaded, and then winched the boat forward to get the approximate tongue weight I wanted, which was 285 pounds, with the boat fully loaded and fueled. Since I didn't have a scale at the marina, I measured the tougue vertical deflection under a known 300 pound load at home, and them cranked the boat forward until I got that same deflection at the marina, moved the winch mount back to get contact with the boat, and checked with scales at home. The water fill cap sits about one inch forward of the trailer axle. For me, this only ended up moving the boat back on the trailer a few inches, and didn't requrie moving the trailer's axle to keep the boat positioned properly on it's bed.
Doesn't hurt to go to a public scale, avaliable at many truck stops, and get weights before and after you make any adjustments. You can get a three axle reading (front, rear, and trailer), then pull off, drop the trailer, and return for just a front and rear axle reading. If you tell them what you're doing, you can get the vehicle-only done on the same charge ticket, for a buck or so extra.
Don't know what will work for you, but do know that too little or too much tougue weight will cause instability. Also, have found that setting the cruise control at 55, and disengaging the 5th gear overdrive, makes everything go better for the tow vehicle, and for me. I have pulled at 75mph, but decided to let the world pass me by on the highway, while I anticipate passing it by on the water.
Good luck.
From: Alma's Only Sent: 9/30/2003 9:11 AM
Alma's Only is a 22 foot cruiser, and presume SeaLife is the same. If not, the particulars regarding tougue weight and position on the trailer will not apply.
From: JimDory Sent: 9/30/2003 11:10 AM
I've trailered boats of all sizes for many years. Maybe I can help here.
The right trailer can help make it easier. A double axle trailer puts more rubber on the road, and helps settle things down in crosswinds. Electric trailer brakes which can be controlled separately from the tow vehicle brakes are also useful.
But the best trailering tricks are absolutely free, and cannot be replaced by any gadgets.
1. Use a good solid tow vehicle, with good mirrors and brakes. A large engine is nice, but not essential. The transmission is more important than the engine.
2. Load the trailer properly with some, but not too much, weight on the tongue. Tie everything down. A loose anchor in the boat can do incredible damage on the road.
3. Drive smart and smooth, not fast and foolish. Drive Stay 5-10 mph below the speed limit -- you and your vehicles will have more time to do a good job. Operate your boat safely on the trailer, just as you would on the water. You and your boating friends will have a better trip and more fun.
Jim Heldberg
Delta Pacific Yachts, Alameda, CA
From: Redƒox Sent: 9/30/2003 11:12 AM
Mike what are your tires rated at?
I know after I got the "passenger" rated tires off the Tundra and went on with some "D" rated ones, the diff' was amazing!! those wimpy soft tires are the reason for a lot of sway and woble....
From: Fun Patrol Sent: 10/1/2003 10:18 AM
A couple of notes on trailering issues:
You can check your tonque weight with a bathroom scale, even if it doesn't read to 300 #. Just divide the load in half with a 2 by 4, put a jack on one side a foot out from center and the scale on the other side a foot out, maybe with some blocks for height adjustment. The scale is now reading half the load, etc. Be sure and read tandems at the hitch height you tow at, as some will even sit high and dry in the air when uncoupled. There are various formulas, anywhere from 5 to 10%.
To adjust the tongue weight, move the axle. Moving the winch stand adusts the position of the boat on the bunks or rollers.
Too little tongue weight is THE major cause of trailer sway. A light tow vehicle with soft suspension can be a real challenge to settle down.
Contrary to popular belief, there IS a weight distribution hitch that works with surge brakes. www.equalizerhitch.com, (800) 478-5578.
Towing a trailer without brakes that weighs more than the tow vehicle will be a real E-ticket ride. You might want to review some NASCAR wreck tapes to see what's in store. It's not "if" but "when" someone pulls out in front of you. Here in Southern CA, that happens quite often.
Roy
From: sealifemike Sent: 10/1/2003 4:10 PM
Sealife is an Angler model, so slightly less weight aft. Weighed her at a truck stop. Results:
Total weight boat & trailer w/fuel = 4500lbs
Tongue wieght = 440lbs
When I prepare to tow a long distance, I inflate the tires on the tow vechicle to their maximums. This really helps stabilize the ride and speaks to Greg's advise on tire ratings. I'm sure having a tandem axel trailer would help alot also, as driving in all wheel drive on my Montero helps alot.
The rig handles well enough at legal speeds (55), and I don't think I'd ever want to tow at 75mph. If, and when I ever move up to the 25 footer, there will definitely be a tandem axel under her, and a big heavy V-8 in front.
Mike - Sealife
From: Redƒox Sent: 10/2/2003 4:54 AM
Mike, I to, had my tires at maximum inflation.... (like our economy).. lol Anyway, if you ever do need new tires, you will notice a hug diff', that stiffer tires make in towing.
OK I said it... now I'm gone
From: riverrat Sent: 10/2/2003 6:08 AM
More comments on trailer surge brakes and equalizer hitches. These systems are designed to move some of the trailer tongue weight to the front axle of the tow vehicle, and do so by using torsion bars whcih also act as sway control bars. They are tensioned with over-center cam latches & chains, so the degree of weight shift and sway control is somewhat adjustable. The chains allow plenty of movement for the surge brake mechanism to telescope as required. I pulled a 9000 lb triple axle boat trailer (Larson 280) with a 1-ton dually (6000 lb dry) for five seasons and had no sway issues or brake issues ever. I had a tongue weight of 850 lbs. Use factory engineered complete equalizer systems (ball platform, trailer hitch) on a frame mounted Class IV receiver only, don't mix parts from different manufacturers. I will say it is sure nice to get back to two axles, and no load equalizer. The GMC dually 7.4L doesn't even notice the C-Dory.
Regards toAll
Riverrat on Chinook
From: Chuck S Sent: 10/3/2003 6:18 AM
I experienced trailer sway with my 3500 pound camper on one (1) trip earlier this year. Never had it before, I was puzzled. I'd skipped the check on the Explorer's tire pressure 'cuz she was just out of Ford service..... When I checked them the next morning I had 30 front/25 rear rather than the required 30/35. No sway on the return trip, but there was 35psi in the rear tires, just like it specifies on the data plate on the driver's door.
I'd checked the trailer's tire pressure. Just got lazy.....
-- Chuck