Twin 50's or Twin 40's?

E

El and Bill

New member
OK -- we've had such an interesting and informative exchange on the 'Lifetime of a Honda 40' thread, we decided to begin another exchange. We have decided to replace both our dearly departed engine and our "long in the tooth" engine with two new engines. (Our still operating engine is showing signs of compression loss, sorta like El and I are after our years).

So, let's not get into a discussion of twins and single -- that's the stuff of another thread in this pub. Also, let's not get into the discussion of the kind of engine (Honda, Yamaha, etc).

Let's assume Honda. Let's assume twins. Now, let's focus on a single issue. Should we get twin 40s or twin '50s??

Yes, there's a cost differential. We understand both are the same engine, with the 50 having some modifications to get the extra hp. Other than cost, what are the pros and cons? Then, is the cost differential worth it, if the pros line up for the 50's? OK, all you in the pub, give us your advice and opinions.
 
Ask your long time cruising companion. That goodfella who runs a 75hp Yamaha. AFAIC, there will be precious little difference between the two engines given your boating lifestyle. Yamaha has the same "difference" between the 75 and 90hp models. Same engine, different ratings. Torque is slightly better at the low end with the 75, and horsepower better at the high end with the 90. I would expect the same with Hondas.

I'll match my 75 against Sea Wolf Joe's 90 any day of the week. Hope to some time, actually. Especially now that I've permanently solved a fuel contamination issue that bit me.

Don

P.S. Does this mean that old F250 is gonna get a temporary reprieve?

:lol:
 
El and Bill,

I know that I'm one of the new guys on the block with a shiny new boat with a 90 and an 8, so I'm not goin to be presumptious enough to give advice to the most experienced and respected C-Dory cruisers out there!

However, when I was pondering the age-old twins vs single and kicker question, I came across a well-stated argument about 40's vs 50's buried in the archives, which I believe(?) was authored by Les.

It stated that the 40's were more efficient due to their placement on the power curve for cruising speeds, while the 50's were at a disadvantage for the same reason. It might be a good idea to check out the archives.

Best regards,

Nick
"Valkyrie"
 
Of course this is a frequently discussed topic. One long thread has Dusty suggesting that the reader ask El and Bill their opinion on the subject. It's the longest thread in the outboard forum. In that same thread Les writes:

Hey all,

Well here goes...since y'all are bantering my name around! So for Work Release and Others...

I've been aboard I don't how many CD22's, I know lots of folks that have them and I've rigged so many I've lost count. I've yet to meet an owner with a 4-stroke on the transom (of any make or model) that didn't just love his/her boat. It's darn near impossible to make a bad choice anywhere in the 75 to 100 hp range in any combination.

There's no reason to go to the Honda BF50's (over the 40's) unless you want them. They don't do much for the boat except add about 3 knots to the top end; a speed that's rarely used on most CD22's. On the other hand, there's no reason not to get the BF50's if they're your desire; there's no particular downside to them other than the extra loot. Put what makes you smile back there...after all it's a pleasure boat!

My personal preference is for the 40's; I like saving the extra money and I feel their performance is more closely matched to the CD22's characteristics. For instance, a very common cruise speed is in the upper teens; that puts the twins just at or under 4,000 rpm. The BF40 develops its peak torque at 3500 rpm; the BF50 at 4500 rpm. If we're at 4000 rpm pushing up the backside of a wave, as the engine rpm drops (from the additional load), on the BF40's the rpm is dropping toward peak torque and away from peak torque on the BF50's. In essence you're a bit on the 'backside' of the power band on the 50's and have to 'catch up'; the BF40's are ready to pull at that rpm.

NOTE: this is subtle stuff; for me it's a matter of optimizing the performance of the boat for the owner and the boat's intended use. So, if the boat's intended use is primarily light loads and higher speeds (maybe it lives on a lake) I'd happily recommend the 50's. It's also about not recommending a more expensive solution just for the heck of it; if you want it go for it. Most folks would never know the difference between running the twin 40's versus the twin 50's until they have lots of hours with each and even then I doubt that the comments would be negative either way. My philosophy is why pay for more then you need...unless you want it; then it makes perfect sense to go with the bigger engines. Nothing's worse than wishing you had made a different choice every time you go out in the boat.

Les continues on other subjects.

I wonder if the 40s don't give you a bit more longevity since they would not have the higher stresses of the extra speed and horsepower. In my short experience with my C-Dory I am quite sure I will very seldom run it at top end. Same as my previous boat. About once a season just to say I did it.

Mark
 
Gosh...with all those criteria...you kinda took all the fun out of it! But...given those parameters...
There is a well known axiom: There are only so many horsepower hours in any given engine block...and you can take them all out tomorrow...or you can take them out over the next 5 years. The 40 and 50 are the same block...and the 50 is designed to take those horsepower hours out quicker. So if you're looking for longevity...get the 40.
Some other things to think about for this project: Replace the steering cable while you have things apart. And look at upgrading your gauges to the new digital package. Your dealer should be able to give you a nice package deal on the new motors with the new gauge package.
And keep in mind...the old motors are worth money. Somebody out there would love to have that lower unit off the motor with the blown power head.
 
Reading Les's comments on this and knowing the way the MFG's play the HP game I would say that the only difference between a 40 and 50 Honda is the Camshaft and Jetting on the carbs. So, what did they do on the cam to change the HP? More than likely they tweaked the duration and lift to give better performance on the higher end of the RPM range (corroberated by Les's post). So, for your typical use I would think that the 40 would be a better overall motor for you.

There is an old adage that says displacement is everything. Well in this case it is the same so now you have to look at where the torque curve is going to be in use the most often and how you use your boat. Since you are cruisers you don't need the high end revs as much.

And I agree with Chris, sell your old motors on EBay! Many people would love to have them for rebuilding or parts. Unless of course you are going to trade them in :)
 
My answer would have been the 40s. But then I read lthe post from Les. I'm staying with the 40s. Really for the same reason that I have a 75HP. The added HP of the 40s or the in my case the 90 Honda does not buy you anything for the additional money.
 
E & B -

If you are tiring of all the logic and sensible advice, we can sure run a quick poll on this question for you.

I am glad to hear you have decided to replace the pair instead of just the wayward twin. There is no way the older one would accept the younger one, and having two girls at 8 and 11 years of age in the house, I can certainly offer expert opinion on the trials of discord.

As for the technical aspect, I defer to Les' wisdom. Unless, of course, Dusty speaks up with different advice, and then Les' youthful gibberish is out the window.



Mike
 
Excellent thread. This had been a burning question (one of a number) for me in my current planning (wannabe?) mode. I got a good chuckle out of the sibling metaphor.... of course I think those should come in sets of three... it's how we did it.
 
I cheerfully admit I have not a clue to the correct answer! I liked our 40s a LOT. I also agree wiith Mike - whatever Les says, unless Dusty says something different, then whatever Les says is out the window!

Actually, knowing your cruising style (and we do, I think), I would bet that top speed is NOT a high priority for you, so the 40s sure seem like the way to go...but whatever floats your boat, just like Les says!
 
hey guys,

The old dusty one just shoots his mouth off - the kid knows what he's talking about. Personally don't see an advantage going with the 50s over the 40s. Run 'em both, and gotta look back and read the decals to tell what's on back. Maybe 2-3 knots on the top end... but with Bill's money I'd spring for the 50s and throw a spare in the cockpit :wink:

Sure would like to be cruisin' with my El/Bill friends.

Dusty (the silent one :wink:)
 
I'd give thumbs up on Les and Dusty's advice anytime. If Honda has good sense in evaluating dealerships, I'd say Les would be on top of the list. Seems like sometimes kids do learn from their elders, eh Duster. Les definitely is probably the most honest, and truly genuine knowledgeable dealer I've met, although I've only had involvement through the mail when he helped convert my tiller BF8 honda to a remote control. My dad and uncle have both been master mechanics for 50+ years, and I'm sure that they both would agree that the Whidbey boys know their stuff, and are HONEST. :thup :thup Something not in great abundance nowadays.

40's for sure! Ron, aka Digger on Snoopy-C
 
I will throw my non technical two cents in here. I have about 75 hours on my 2005 twin Honda 50's and no complaints so far. With a passenger load of 500 lbs I normally cruise @ 4100- 4500 RPMs in most conditions utilizing the trim tabs. I frequently run @ the 1000 lb. capacity and find I am then running @ 5000 + to maintain low to mid teen SOG. I have spent $1000's of dollars and many hours over the last fourteen years maintaining my deep vee I/O boats and life is now good with my twin Honda outboards. Paul
 
E & B-

On the technical side, I'd be inclined towards the 40's.

On the other hand, I'd ask myself how many times in the 2100 hours run so far with the 40's that I'd wished I'd have had the 50's and compare that to the price difference. Worth the difference? If significantly yes, buy the 50's. If no, buy the 40's. Joe.
 
Seems to me (and I remember this topic from way back) a soul should consider a brand of 50-hp (for twins) that has it all! the right (more) torque and hp curve for the maximum rating on a C-D 22...
I have been on a new C-D 22 that was loaded for two (twin 40s) with there gear up here a few years back. It was GUTLESS!! and the owner thought so to, but was happy with it before all the goodies got added (weight---getting it rigged how he finally wanted it) Not just speaking for myself and "what's good for me" :moon (take that :lol: )
Get away from that old Honda mentality and find a 50 that is more than just a hopped-up 40 :idea: :mrgreen:
In the case of my 115 which is a hopped-up 100. It was internally beefed-up inside, to make for a more durable engine (115 efi Yamaha :thup ) I went that rout for reason of getting a longer life out if it :idea: since really no one cruises WOT all the time.
OK... gotta get (I can hear the wheels grindin in the pub as-we-speak) :xnaughty :xtongue
In true Brat fashion: a C-Brat salute ... :moon and I'm out... :bat
PS: I'm glad you know better not to cruise on-step for long periods only one of your main engines that is only propped to run in unison with another. Just thought to throw the idea out there, since I never hear any "twin-man" mention this handicap. :wink:
 
2005 22 Cruiser, 2005 new twin 50 EFI Yamaha, 25hrs on engines with fuel management gage , still playing with different props . Getting 3.8 to 4.1 gpr, 3500 rpm at 17to18 . LOVE that BOAT & MOTORS. PS YAMAHA 40 has 3 cylinders , the 50 has 4 cylinders. Gary SEA RAM.
 
Certainly not an expert in these matters, but appreciate the fact that Les is one.

Given the overall use of the boat, and the speeds normally run, the 40's really sound like the right equipment. Running in the most efficient RPM range over the long haul is important.

If twin 50's got me there a little faster, but didn't best utilize the power curves of the engine, that would be fine, as long as that is how I was routinely using the boat.

If, however, I was cruising long periods of time in the 15 - 20 knot range, I would sure want to be running my engines in the most efficient manner, with minimum "lug", as well as approaching high revs. periodically.

I'd opt for Les's recommedations.
 
Gary / Sea Ram / Dodge Ram / Yami-Ram

Nice choice on the Yamaha 50's!

EFI instead of carburetors (easier starting, better mileage, cleaner running, all the new electronic monitoring and control)

996 cc per engine instead of 808 (more torque, less relative stress on engine)

four cylinders per engine instead of three (smoother, less vibration)

same 996 cc block develops 60 hp in "tuned up" model (means this one is working less hard, will last longer)

2 engines at 237 lbs each = 474 lbs, a bit heavier than 2 Hondas at 201 each = 402, but still within limits easily, as

Honda 90 = 373 lbs, and Honda BF8L = 79 lbs, and Total = 452 lbs.

and

Yamaha 90 = 369 lbs, and Yamaha F8L = 83 lbs, and Total = 452 lbs.

and

2 Suzuki DF 40s or DF50s = 238 lbs each, and Total = 476 lbs.

and

Suzuki DF90 = 416 lbs, and Suzuki DF 9.9 = 107 lbs, and Total = 523 lbs!

Plus you have 100 horses instead of 80!!! Now your chances of planning on one engine without the other one are much greater! Have you tried this, Gary?

Much more to consider, of course, but the preliminary comparative numbers look very good! Keep us posted on your experiences with your new Yami-Rams!!! Joe.
 
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