Unintended Acceleration Issue

On another note, hopefully Toyota engineers have better luck with some of their other technology, like the self parking feature and cross wind correction. The last thing we need is for the steering to also have computer problems!
 
This will be interesting....especially, once some previous cases with several car makers get in the mix. At least Toyota had a chance to have the NHSTA take a look at some things about 3 years ago... and, it will be very interesting to see what comes of that clean bill of health back then... and,...who the "experts" were in NHSTA...

I am glad our automobile industry is not full of lobbyist, politicians, unions, lawyers and folks that all make good money of each other. :sad :mrgreen: No way we could get to the truth if that were the case.
 
This is the AIRBUS SYNDROME that has been talked about for years, finally happening - electronic control with no mechanical connections between the pilot/driver (in this case) and the engine or flight controls...
Do a Google on A330 or Airfrance and Airbus crashes...

Look, our computer programs freeze/crash/go-nuts on a regular basis and we are all familiar with this.. A dedicated CPU controller, like what is in your washing machine, DVD player, etc. is vastly more reliable than Billy Gates operating systems, but that does not mean it is perfect... If you have a system that has a MTBF of 10 million hours - meaning it will operate on average 10,000,000 hours before failing once, that is pretty good.. But if you have a million of these machines operating, then every ten hours one will fail... This is what is statistically happening to Toyota (and other car companies will not be far behind)
 
Based on Levitation's analysis I can imagine how difficult it could be for Toyota to replicate a software issue or issues involved. I'm sure we've all seen or experienced software issues and sometimes they remain a mystery. I guess "hi-tech" isn't always a good thing. Remember in the "early years" how people claimed computers were going to "solve all our problems"?
 
Levitation":29pztn5d said:
This is the AIRBUS SYNDROME that has been talked about for years, finally happening - electronic control with no mechanical connections between the pilot/driver (in this case) and the engine or flight controls...
Do a Google on A330 or Airfrance and Airbus crashes...

Look, our computer programs freeze/crash/go-nuts on a regular basis and we are all familiar with this.. A dedicated CPU controller, like what is in your washing machine, DVD player, etc. is vastly more reliable than Billy Gates operating systems, but that does not mean it is perfect... If you have a system that has a MTBF of 10 million hours - meaning it will operate on average 10,000,000 hours before failing once, that is pretty good.. But if you have a million of these machines operating, then every ten hours one will fail... This is what is statistically happening to Toyota (and other car companies will not be far behind)
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Back when I was a software engineer, and writing about SW engineering issues for the trade press, one of my favorite stories was about Niklaus Wirth, the Swiss computer scientist and designer of the Pascal and Modula-2 languages. He is reputed to have once said that he would not want to fly on a plane for which he had written the software. This was a guy who practically wrote the book on software reliability.

Warren
 
And create the paperless office? All computers have done is make it easier to create paperwork. I often joke that we're not in the boat business, we're in the paperwork business.
 
localboy":dpzto3qz said:
Remember in the "early years"
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Taking "localboy's" comment out of text.........."Runaways" are not a new thing....When I worked on a ranch in Wisdom, Montana (The Big Hole Vallley) in 1959, I remember stories of times past when all the haying was done with teams of horses. On some occasions a team of horses would spook and take off running causing other teams to do likewise. It often took many hours gathering up the teams and the damaged equipment they were dragging behind them.
When I was 11 yrs. old, I spent a summer working for my uncle who still "hayed" with a team of Belgian horses. Fortunately, they were well behaved and never "ran-away" with me. (Although, I did have a horse or two that I rode that did.... :shock: . )

The above being said.....I guess we've come "full circle!"

Ya Hoo! (Cowboy saying....not Japanese).... :wink
 
Matt Gurnsey":2vsp2pt3 said:
And create the paperless office?
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Our dept is STILL claiming that, Matt. I've been here for 10 yrs and things have only gotten worse, with MORE paper. :roll: The only difference between the old days (handwritten) and now (computerized) is that now when the computers go down or fail, we can't do ANYTHING. :roll: :roll: :thdown
 
It will be interesting to see Toyotas response after the hearings. Two things have been established:

1. Toyota cars/trucks fail electronically, probably software.
2. Toyota does not admit this yet, probably because of the liability and cost of a recall.

Would you buy a Toyota now, after hearing the testimony in Congress? And how about the fact that the people in Gov't laughed at the accidents? I'm one of the smug guys who bought a Toyota because they're the most reliable car on the road, and now I'm both afraid and mad.

I wonder if Toyota will ever describe, in detail, how their control electronics work, including the software code. I wonder if a cut off switch to the computer/controller would work. That's something I could do.

I wonder if car manufactures will now be required to certify their software? Certainly seems reasonable.

Boris
 
Just be aware that Toyota is the only, repeat only auto manufacturer that will not let anyone download data stored in the cars memory. In fact there is only ONE laptop in America that can access data stored in the master computer in Toyota cars. Unlike ALL the other carmakers who use open source code that can be accessed by anyone.

So who really knows what they have found in the computers of the runaway cars? I guess we just have to trust them..... Ha Ha Ha!
 
Shouldn't this be under fishing.....it sounds fishy to me. I have always been reluctant to send our hard earned money across the big pond to the competition so they can invest more money into their business interests. I admit a decade ago many Japanese makers made a better car, but the evidence they still do is pretty debatable if you base your conclusion on consumer data and not emotion. While this has nothing to do with anything, the worst and biggest pile of garbage I have ever owned (bought used and that may have been the problem in Toyota's defense) was an 82 toyota 4x4 pickup. So while I picked on the worst, and this has nothing to do with anything either, the best is my 78 Ford F-250 (that I bought the Toyota to replace) which has been flawless for 350,000 miles other than batteries, tires, brakes, a carb, and other routine stuff.
 
No, I wouldn't buy a Toyota these days, except for the Land Cruiser. I've always liked Land Cruisers, but $70k is too much money. Of course, I wouldn't have bought a Toyota for me to drive before this whole episode. For some reason, they've never really appealed to me (except for the LC).
 
Sarge,

DO-178 is just the beginning. There are different levels of criticality depending on function and impact on flight safety plus requirements for separation and redundancy. Bottom line is lots of $$$, paperwork, peer review and time. But you have to do it to build even 1 airplane so it would still be cost effective for a couple of million cars.

More importantly perhaps would be a requirement to use only certain, certified software tools/methods which would ensure the elimination of unforseen failure modes.

I'm not sure that opening up the Software to anyone with a PC is a step foreward in terms of safety. I have horrible visions of my car accessing the internet and deciding to download "required critical updates" while I am on the highway.
Sound silly? Look what is done already with OnStar :shock:

(That should get some off season adrenalin flowing :twisted: )

Merv
 
Hi,
I resisted commenting here because of some of my attempts at humor have been at Toyotas expense. What I find somewhat disgusting is our lawmakers now waving gas pedal assemblies around and pointing fingers when they have much more important things to do. My direction would be to let the proper authority deal with this and let the grandstanding stop.
Audi years ago went thru this same sort of thing years ago,but I believe that had a lot to do with the gas and brake pedals being a little close maybe on purpose for the enthusists who liked to heel toe the brake and throttle. Audi proved that the engine and transmission could be held in check by the brakes. That didn't stop the out cry. The problem then and now is that a lot of Tom, Dick, and Harry's that will have an accident with a Toyota will be trying to take advantage of Toyoda's plight.
My other thought is with an older woman or anyone for that matter in traffic driving a V-6 powered Camry having the presence of mind to flip the car into neutral before panic sets in and or hitting something before they have a chance to react. I mean how good are you? Criminal charges?I don't know about that. Does the trial start December 7th? I think the whole thing could have been handled better by all concerned including Washington. If this seems too political erase it.
D.D.
 
dave deem":1o15zw6g said:
My other thought is with an older woman or anyone for that matter in traffic driving a V-6 powered Camry having the presence of mind to flip the car into neutral before panic sets in and or hitting something before they have a chance to react.
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The real beginning happened right here in San Diego, David. An off duty CHP officer driving a Lexus (Toyota in a prom dress) and carrying his immediate family died in a terrible crash because the Lexus just kept on accellerating. His wife was on the phone with CHP dispatchers as the whole terrible scenario played out for all involved.

If a well trained CHP officer couldn't stop the vehicle, couldn't shift to neutral, couldn't turn the engine off without locking the steering and definitely dooming his family, all the action recorded by 911, the problem is real and it can't be ignored or blamed on the driver. :amgry

Down here, us San Diego County types have heard excerpts of the 911 call and we're not giving Toyota OR Toyoda any slack.

Don
 
T.R. Bauer":2q7rm7la said:
Shouldn't this be under fishing.....it sounds fishy to me. I have always been reluctant to send our hard earned money across the big pond to the competition so they can invest more money into their business interests.
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Wow, me and a guy from Wasila are on the same side on this one. You wanna help America, buy American.
 
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