vaccination

[Foggy]

Well, let's see which camp seems best until we all fall into the abyss. Is there a
way out starting now?

Camp 1.: I do what is best for me because I'm 'free'. To hell with everyone else.

Camp 2.: The President said so and I'm with him.

Camp 3.: I'm for burning it all down no matter what the cost.

Camp 4.: I don't have to believe in or do anything anything that makes me
feel bad or I don't like.

Camp 5.: It's all a scheme to get us; microchips in vaccines, more oppression,
broken promises, the rich get richer...

Camp 6.: It's all meaningless. Do what you want. Nothing matters. Make all
the MFers suffer.

Camp 7.: Endure. Keep hope alive. Things will get better.

Camp 8.: I do what I can to be positive and helpful. I believe in truth.

Camp 9.: It's someone else's fault. I don't deserve this.

Camp 10.: God will solve our problems.

So. Where are you and what's with your reasoning?

Aye.

 

[thataway]

A lot of speculation on this thread. There are no long term studies of the longevity of immunity. The two vaccines in the USA (mRNA vaccines) are focused on the spike protein, and not a common type of vaccination. Corona virus mutates rapidly and we don't know how long the current vaccines will confer immunity, or if it will work well on mutations. How can someone say it is better to get a the second or booster vaccination in 5 to 6 months? No one has studied this, with these vaccines and the corvid 19 virus. It is very possible that a "booster" or even a second type of vaccine may be better in the future.

There are some documented cases of re-infection and some have been more serious (including death) than the fist case. Some have been mutations of the original virus, some appear to be the same virus genetic variant.

The reality is that you will probably not get "herd immunity" within a year in the USA, because of those who will refuse, or cannot take the vaccination. Although the number of persons in the polls who will refuse is in the 15 to 20% (down from earlier this year), a recent Kaiser study suggest that 29% of health care workers may reject taking the vaccine. That is disturbing to me.
We plan to keep masking and social distance for at least the next year.

There are a large number of people who refuse to wear masks. there are even establishments which have signs "No Masks Allowed" and will not allow anyone to enter who is wearing a mask. (I found this out as I talked to cousins in Idaho and Colorado.). Even in cities who have "masks required" there has been little enforcement.

From: FDA Briefing Document Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine:

Vaccine efficacy for the primary endpoint against confirmed COVID-19 occurring at least 7 days after the second dose was 95.0% with 8 COVID-19 cases in the vaccine group compared to 162 COVID-19 cases in the placebo group.

Only 3% of participants had evidence of prior infection at study enrollment, and additional analyses showed that very few COVID-19 cases occurred in these participants over the course of the entire study (9 in the placebo group and 10 in the BNT162b2 group, only 1 of which occurred 7 days or more after completion of the vaccination regimen – data not shown). ..... While limited, these data do suggest that previously infected individuals can be at risk of COVID-19 (i.e., reinfection) and could benefit from vaccination.

Based on the cumulative incidence curve for the all-available efficacy population after Dose 1, COVID-19 disease onset appears to occur similarly for both BNT162b2 and placebo groups until approximately 14 days after Dose 1, at which time point, the curves diverge, with more cases accumulating in the placebo group than in the BNT162b2 group, and there does not appear to be evidence of waning protection during the follow-up time of approximately 2 months following the second dose that is being evaluated at this point in time.

The graph would not transfer, but the incidence of covid 19 infections were the same between the Placebo and the vaccinated group until about 14 days after the first dose. At this point there is 95% protection from the vaccine over the 2 months periods studied. There is absolutely no information at this time, with this vaccine that the second dose would be better given months later.

During and after the SARs Infections in 2009, there were papers written on what type of vaccines could and should have been tried. These included: inactivated vaccines, virally and bacterially vectored vaccines, recombinant protein and DNA vaccines, as well as the use of attenuated virus vaccines.

Here is a link to a CDC article about current types of vaccines which are in the pipeline.

Be safe!

 

[WeekiTiki]

Bartenders don't need the vaccine

They're serving the folks that kill it off day by day

No virus can live in an alcohol saturated environment

 

[westward]

Dr Bob's post illustrates the challenges when folks attempt to self-perform immunology based on speculation or internet theories. There's really no quick substitute for the hard work performed by the scientific community over weeks and months of research and testing. Even then, there are no sure answers.

The real challenge comes when people start to buy into and spread these speculative theories because they "seem reasonable to me", often based on one's political or demographic status.

Once you receive your vaccination approval, and assuming you wish to proceed, I urge you to follow the medical protocols re: follow-up vaccinations. Otherwise, you could end up doing unintended damage to your health and the health of others.

Happy New Year!

 

[dotnmarty]

Once you receive your vaccination approval, and assuming you wish to proceed, I urge you to follow the medical protocols re: follow-up vaccinations. Otherwise, you could end up doing unintended damage to your health and the health of others.

So well said! When we get through this, and we will, it will be because you heeded this advice.

 

[Foggy]

Eventually, you have to face up to the consequences of your actions.
("You reap what you sow".)

Nothing too heavy, Holidays and all, but it seems to be true.

Think about it.

Aye.

 

[Scuppers]

I have searched high and low. I find no research or data suggesting that your theory of reinfection is based on facts. There have been 26 documented cases of reinfection out of over 16 million infections (the latest data I could find) There are an additional 1600 cases that are potentially reinfections, but data surrounding the initial infections are questionable. Taken as a whole, the data is strongly in support of the sustained immunity theory, at least for 90 days. Why would you point at this issue, when people are not wearing masks?

This reinfection data is statistically insignificant, and should be ignored. Instead, you insist on creating, out of thin air, the idea that reinfection is entirely possible, and that the issue has not been studied enough to draw any conclusion. You could be right, of course. Statistical theory says you are not. If you use that information to induce reaction, I would call that propaganda.
I try to follow facts, but I am human and make assumptions that do not always hold up to the light of logic and reason.

BTW, there is ample data concerning many vaccine second dose protocalls, going all the way back to the polio vaccine. You quoted the actual data from the FDA Covid report on the Moderna vaccine that clearly indicates that at three weeks, after the first dose, the immune response protection is at over 90 %, and that that is when they recommend the second dose. The data on the increased performance is non existent after the second dose. I do not doubt that it can enhance the performance of the vaccine. I will take the vaccine my physician recommends, so attempting to label me as a would be doctor is absurd. If I am wrong about the facts, please correct me..

 

[thataway]

I have searched high and low. I find no research or data suggesting that your theory of reinfection is based on facts. There have been 26 documented cases of reinfection out of over 16 million infections (the latest data I could find) There are an additional 1600 cases that are potentially reinfections, but data surrounding the initial infections are questionable. Taken as a whole, the data is strongly in support of the sustained immunity theory, at least for 90 days. Why would you point at this issue, when people are not wearing masks?

First there are over 80 million "reported" infections. We have no idea of how many there are. Same for "re-infections". Those which are "known" are people who have come forward, have been tested and confirmed that they had a second infection of COVID 19. Some seem to be the same or similar RNA sequences. Some have been variants. The unreported cases are unknown. Statistics only are of value if you are doing valid planed scientific studies. In this case, we have no idea of how many real cases (more or less) or of actual re-infections. There could be thousands or even hundreds of thousands. That is the reason that my granddaughter who tested positive, with no symptoms, in August, is re tested for COVID 19 every few weeks. At this point there is a lot of ambiguity in the antibody tests for immunity. Again as more data points are obtained, we will know a lot more. Many virologists are concerned about secondary or re-infection. Although I no longer practice medicine, I advise a number of folks on what I feel are best practices, based on my background as a clinician and academic. That is why I recommend a fitted, N 95 quality mask. Not a bandana or couple pieces of cloth. Fitted means no air leaks around the edge of the mask. Since I am 84 with several co-morbidities, I use an N 95 fitted mask. We are running low on the 3M masks, so I will be experimenting with the "Filti" masks, which are currently on route.

The last sentence makes absolutely no sense. Sorry, perhaps I misunderstand its meaning. I make it very clear: People should mask and maintain social distancing. Ideally all would be wearing fitted N 95 quality or better masks. The reality is that a very small percent of the population is taking these precautions. There are good studies to suggest that the "social distance" should really be closer to 12 feet than 6 feet. There are in-expensive ways to have an N95 quality mask, and I have cited this before in other posts.

Again--Be safe. Mask, socially distance, and get the vaccine when it is available.

 

[hardee]

Dr Bob's post illustrates the challenges when folks attempt to self-perform immunology based on speculation or internet theories. There's really no quick substitute for the hard work performed by the scientific community over weeks and months of research and testing. Even then, there are no sure answers.

The real challenge comes when people start to buy into and spread these speculative theories because they "seem reasonable to me", often based on one's political or demographic status.

Once you receive your vaccination approval, and assuming you wish to proceed, I urge you to follow the medical protocols re: follow-up vaccinations. Otherwise, you could end up doing unintended damage to your health and the health of others.

Happy New Year!

Absolutely. :thup

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

 

[westward]

Got dose 1 of the Pfizer vaccine last night. No sore arm or other ill effects yet, hopefully not at all. My nurse and the vaccine documents mentioned 5-6 possible/temporary Sx., which are basically transient low-grade flu Sx. Use Tylenol if you have Sx. In rare cases people who are pre-disposed to severe allergic shock (eg those who carry epi-pens) can have a serious vaccine reaction. They hold you in clinic for 15 min. to monitor for this.

They confirm the Pt.'s second vaccination appt. before giving the first. Nurse said the vaccine studies and emergency approval were all based on a 2 dose protocol, and that you cannot mix vaccines: whatever you get for the first needs to be the same for the second, proceed only as directed.

Reminder: even with the vaccine-induced personal immunity, one can still be an asymptomatic virus carrier and vector, so as Dr. Bob stated earlier our masking/distancing protocols do not change until largely everyone has been vaccinated. We will all be (hopefully) masking/distancing well into 2021.

 

[tparrent]

I checked one of those "where are you on the list of groups to be vaccinated?" apps and found that I am nearly last. Dogs and cats apparently get the vaccination before i do but I squeezed in ahead of hamsters.

Now you might infer from that that I am a paragon of health. Inferences are often incorrect! Ok, I don't have any obvious commodities but I'm not a spring chicken either. Not sure why the youngsters are ahead of me - but I'll wait patiently.

So, yes, please mask up and keep your distance even after you get the jab.

 

[thataway]

I checked one of those "where are you on the list of groups to be vaccinated?" apps and found that I am nearly last. Dogs and cats apparently get the vaccination before i do but I squeezed in ahead of hamsters.

Although the CDC give guidelines, the different states are prioritizing as they see fit. I am a little surprised that over 65 with co-morbidities are not put ahead of the much larger group of over 65, or that there is not a separate group of over 75 or 80 with co-morbidities.

I have heard of some "cheating" of you healthy non essential workers getting the inject. I am also aware of an older physician, who no longer practices, and is in excellent health getting his vaccine at the Kaiser Hospital where he no longer works. Also politicians including one over 30 years of age going ahead of those in need of protection. I do believe that the first tranche of vaccines should go to those at greater risk including front line health care and first responders. Then those in nursing homes.

It is not at all clear in Florida how distribution will begin for the larger groups of elderly. Is it CVS/Walgreens, the hospitals, or individual Doctor's offices vs mass public health "drive in" as the early tests were??

 

[smckean (Tosca)]

It is not at all clear in Florida how.....

Not surprising perhaps. Florida has not exactly been a paragon of good practices and leadership when it comes to COVID.

 

[thataway]

Not surprising perhaps. Florida has not exactly been a paragon of good practices and leadership when it comes to COVID.

Actually considering the elderly population in Fl and the fact that life is is almost normal--except masking, and some requested limits of no more than 10 at a gathering, I would not say that Florida has been "mismanaged". Restaurants and almost all businesses are operating "normally". They are using self policing distancing with indoor dining. That does not mean that those of us "at high risk" don't take precautions, because we do. The economy remains healthy in our area.

Case per 100K in last 7 days is 46.4 in FL, compared to Calif. where things are virtually locked down at 95.7 per 100K. Washington is lower at 26.5, and I suspect that they are also fairly well locked down???

I don't believe that anyone knows what the best balance is: total lock down and economic disaster, vs fully open society with no bounds. It should be a balance with safety in mind. Certainly the tourist economy has been hurt in Fl.

In our area schools are all functioning normally. Employment rate is about 5% average last few months. This is about the same as Seattle. In Los Angeles CA the unemployment rate is 9%, schools are all virtual (except for a few exceptions for some private schools which are half and half) I believe that schools are virtual in the Seattle area also?

There have been some areas in S. Florida where there had to be more drastic measures taken--and that was because of super spreader events in the Miami and other areas. Disney World is open--with restrictions.

 

[robhwa]

It is not at all clear in Florida how.....

Not surprising perhaps. Florida has not exactly been a paragon of good practices and leadership when it comes to COVID.

If you consider rates, Florida is similar in cases per 100,000 (5694/100K) to many other states, and almost exactly the national average. "Travel to" states like Florida have unique problems, and tourism has remained high in Florida during COVID. California, with its long list of restrictions, is similar (4982/100K).

Our beloved state of Washington is doing a little better (3049/100K). Rules and regulations may have helped some. Restrictions and rules seem useful, but my favorite state, no sales tax, no income tax "Live Free or Die" New Hampshire (2795/100K), is quite a bit lower than the national average and third lowest, so it isn't just "Freedom Loving" states that have the worst problems or restrictive states with the lowest. The lowest rate is Vermont, but being north doesn't help, as the highest rate is North Dakota (11870/100K), with South Dakota also over 10K/100K, or over 10% of people infected.

Clearly, individual attitudes and what individuals do play a role, and maybe geography. We all seem to mask up here on Anderson Island. It probably pays to live on an island (Hawaii 1447/100K). I wish everyone well and look forward to my eventual "jab".

 

[thataway]

Agree with robhwa's posts. New Hampshire Maine and Vermont have lots of very isolated areas and independent minded people. People tend to comply with suggestions for their safety and shunned outsiders.

North and South Dakota increases seem to have been tracked to the Sturges Rally. 462,000(+/-) individuals, with minimal social distancing or masking. I am all in favor of bike riders. Unfortunately this became a "super spreader" event.

We saw a peak after Thanksgiving, and will see another in the next month from Christmas, before many are vaccinated.

 

[Barry Rietz]

This mornings NPR radio announced that "Novavax", another pharmaceutical company, is trialing a vaccine that does not include live virus! Apparently they have developed a type of synthetic material that stimulates the natural immune response! Fingers crossed it works so the "allergic reactors" may be able to get immunized.

 

[thataway]

Barry none of the currently approved vaccines in the US contain live virus. The allergic reactions may be lipid nanoparticles (LNPs) or polyethylene glycol (PEG). which are used to bind or carry the messenger RNA (mRNA) which helps our bodies form defense to the COVID 19. The PEG or similar compounds are used in toothpastes, shampoos etc-and it is possible that some of the population may have been sensitized. The anaphylactic reactions for the most part have been benign and controlled easily with epinephrine, Benadryl, steroids etc...That is the reasons that patients need to wait 15 minutes after the injections. I have some concern about getting the vaccine in a pharmacy setting and there being potential reactions that the pharmacist cannot treat...Medical personal who are trained need to be available to the vaccination sites.

 

[smittypaddler]

The UK has approved and is injecting the Oxford/Astrazeneca vaccine right now, and the EU is expected to approve it in the next few days. Normal refrigeration, 3 bucks a shot, 90-95% effective, seems like a no-brainer, but I heard on the news it's not expected to be approved by FDA here until April. Can anyone explain why this is so?

 

[Foggy]

The UK has approved and is injecting the Oxford/Astrazeneca vaccine right now, and the EU is expected to approve it in the next few days. Normal refrigeration, 3 bucks a shot, 90-95% effective, seems like a no-brainer, but I heard on the news it's not expected to be approved by FDA here until April. Can anyone explain why this is so?

Because this is America ("becoming great again").
Like where have you been (Yr 2020 AD)?

Aye.
Grandpa used to say, " 'FUBAR' is for real."
Goodbye 2020.