Webasto / Espar knockoffs

[Sea Wolf]

After reading much of the above, it seems that what is needed is a scaled down heating unit, with variable output, one that could operate at 500 to say 5000 or more btu's, continuously.

I'm not sure, though, if the mechanics and combustion dynamics would work at those dimensions and output levels with diesel.

It could definitely be done with propane/butane, but there go the safety advantages of liquid low flash point diesel over explosive gases like propane and butane.

For what it worth, I had a Force 10 Cozy Cabin propane heater in my CD-22 that could be throttled back to very low levels, since the burner was essentially the same as a small propane cooking stove.

Fun to think about! :lol:

Joe. :teeth :thup

 

[pcg]

It could definitely be done with propane/butane, but there go the safety advantages of liquid low flash point diesel over explosive gases like propane and butane.

That's true, but the safety issue is dealt with by following rules for proper installation and use - as we do with natural gas, gasoline, and 120VAC.

Having owned an RV for over 20 years, I'm comfortable with propane. Several hundred thousand RVs are sold in the US every year, with propane heat. Even though I'm comfortable with propane on a boat, the decision still isn't simple. As always, it comes down to tradeoffs...

Diesel heat:
Initial cost: Chinese heaters = $300 or less, Wallas 22GB = $2600
Fuel energy density: 50% more BTUs per gallon than propane.
Start up time: Several minutes to get substantial heat.
Electrical draw: Glow plug requires a lot to start, then just fan.
Noise: Fan noise pales next to burner noise. All are noisy except Wallas.
Maintenance: Burners need removal and cleaning every year.
Safety: Diesel fumes not explosive at room temp. Requires CO detector.

Propane heat:
Initial cost: $800
Fuel energy density: Substantially less than diesel.
Start up time: Instant heat.
Electrical draw: Almost nothing to start. Only draw is fan.
Noise: Quiet. Only fan noise.
Maintenance: None
Safety: Propane explosive at room temp. Requires propane locker, propane detector, CO detector.

If you're comfortable with a properly installed propane locker and appropriate detectors, here's a nice little 6,500 BTU forced air propane heater...
https://www.vancafe.com/HS2000-p/hs2000 ... gK-kfD_BwE

 

[colbysmith]

Not sure, but I believe propane heaters add more moisture to our already condensating cabins... I have the Webasto, and after two years use did tear it apart to clean the burner. While there was some suet, it would have been fine to have left it alone. I think it does help to insure that when you run it, before shutting it down, you let it run at full burner for 20-30 minutes. Colby

 

[pcg]

You are correct when referring to non-vented furnaces. Any propane heater that is not direct vented has the potential to add moisture and CO to the air, as well as deplete the O2 level.

The propane furnace I linked to above has a closed burner system, just like the diesel heaters, so it doesn't add any moisture to the air. The combustion chamber (along with combustion intake and exhaust ports) is sealed and isolated from the fresh air intake and exhaust ports. It's identical to the forced air furnaces in RVs.

I've researched propane "fireplaces" and some are direct vented and some are not. I believe that the Cozy Cabin propane heater that Joe had in his 22 was NOT direct vented so, yes, it would add moisture to the air. (Joe please correct me if I am wrong!) OTOH, the Newport propane fireplace heaters ARE direct vented.

I love the cozy ambience of fireplace heaters and they use practically no electricity (they draw a tiny amount of power for CO and O2 sensors), but the downside is that they have no provision for ducting forced air.

 

[Sea Wolf]

pcg-

Thanks for your comments.

The Force 10 Cozy Cabin Heater I was using was directly vented to the outside via a 1" stainless pipe, etc. It also used cabin air for combustion, which helped rid the cabin of moisture.

I'd be just fine with the propane heater you mentioned.

I didn't really fear the one I had in my CD-22, just carefully respected the limitations and possible dangers it represented.

I had all the necessary detectors, shut off valves, locker provisions, etc.

However, we do, around here in C-Brat Land, get a lot of warnings about the dangers of using propane in a boat, so I was responding to the anticipated forthcoming concerns. ( Some of the anecdotal accounts of bad outcomes have been frightening.)

It would be interesting to compare the statistics concerning fire, explosions, suffocation (asphyxiation), and whatever else, between RV and marine use of propane when used for heating.

Nice talking with you. Stay safe!

Joe. :teeth :thup

 

[AKMel]

Followup:
As stated the problem seems to be my controller. I ordered another. I detailed this to the seller after filing a "dispute." They offered reimbursement. There are two controllers, one wired, one wireless. They work together. I have both. I eventually realized they offered reimbursement on the cheaper of the two, which was half the price of the one I needed. Then the dispute expired because it exceeded the amount of time (3 days) allotted by Alibaba / AliExpress, (a Chinese ebay?). In my opinion the system is set up in favor of the seller. So it's Buyer Beware if you have a problem. If I had to do this over again I'd spend a little more and do business with a seller that has merchandise warehoused in the USA.

AliExpress offered to have me return of the merchandise for full refund. I didn't think that prudent after spending 6 hours on the install, and probably another 2 hours to uninstall and box, and return postage is the responsibility of the buyer. I suspect return postage alone would amount to more than the cost of the controller. I'm prob out $20 for the controller. I can throw $20 out the window. To me it's the principle of the matter.

AliExpress sent me a questionaire about how satisfied I am. I answered honestly.

I also tried to file a review (1-5 stars) on their site, with description of my problem, and my difficulties with their customer service. The software came back that I am not permitted to use Chinese characters or symbols. I wish I knew some. I only used English. Like I say, their system is weighted in favor of the seller.

 

[pcg]

The software came back that I am not permitted to use Chinese characters or symbols. I wish I knew some. I only used English. Like I say, their system is weighted in favor of the seller.

Google is your friend...
该软件回来了，我不允许使用中文字符或符号

And thank you for the thorough documentation of your experience. Very helpful!

 

[ssobol]

...
Google is your friend...
该软件回来了，我不允许使用中文字符或符号

If Google translate works for English->Chinese as it seems to when translating some things to English, it might not be that helpful.

 

[AKMel]

I had a conversation with a Chinese friend today. She has been in the States about 6 months but is fluent in English. I mentioned about Chinese customer service lacking English ability. Her response was that, unless it's a big company, they don't have English speakers at all. She says they run the comments though Google Translate. (she considers that 85-90% accurate in translation). They then answer what they think we said, run their Mandarin answer through Google Translate again, and send the result.
Now that makes sense.... or does it.

 

[ssobol]

I had a conversation with a Chinese friend today. She has been in the States about 6 months but is fluent in English. I mentioned about Chinese customer service lacking English ability. Her response was that, unless it's a big company, they don't have English speakers at all. She says they run the comments though Google Translate. (she considers that 85-90% accurate in translation). They then answer what they think we said, run their Mandarin answer through Google Translate again, and send the result.
Now that makes sense.... or does it.

When I was in China about a year ago, the hotel maids and taxi drivers would often use a translate app on their phones to talk to English speakers. Sometimes I'd be trying to tell the maid something and she'd stick her phone up to my face to get the translation of what I wanted.

BTW, it is not Google but something else. Most Chinese can't get Google (or Facebook, Instagram, etc.). But there is a Chinese government approved alternative to all of these services. Also BTW, the Chinese are way ahead of the US in terms of phone integration to services used by most people. For instance, Uber may sound neat in the US, but if you want a taxi in China you use a very similar sort of app. Good luck trying to get a taxi by just flagging one down. They've been doing it for longer than Uber has been around.

 

[localboy]

But there is a Chinese government approved alternative to all of these services. Also BTW, the Chinese are way ahead of the US in terms of phone integration to services used by most people. For instance, Uber may sound neat in the US, but if you want a taxi in China you use a very similar sort of app. Good luck trying to get a taxi by just flagging one down. They've been doing it for longer than Uber has been around.

I would make a guess that anything & everything that has to with the web must be “Chinese government approved”. Communists are not known for their allowances of freedom & liberties.

 

[ssobol]

But there is a Chinese government approved alternative to all of these services. Also BTW, the Chinese are way ahead of the US in terms of phone integration to services used by most people. For instance, Uber may sound neat in the US, but if you want a taxi in China you use a very similar sort of app. Good luck trying to get a taxi by just flagging one down. They've been doing it for longer than Uber has been around.

I would make a guess that anything & everything that has to with the web must be “Chinese government approved”. Communists are not known for their allowances of freedom & liberties.

It was kind of interesting that Google was not allowed (i.e. no Gmail), but AOL email worked fine.

 

[AKMel]

It's been about 4 years since my last post. A lot of water passed around the boat since then. My wife of 50 years got sick and I cared for her for her for two years before she passed. After several more years I got married again. Those were years away from C-Brats forums. I still have C-esta and am getting out in it again. We recently did Glacier Bay NP for 3 days.

Back to the heater: The Chinese heater worked ok in my truck, but unless the outside temp was 32˚or below, actually got the cab too warm. I slept in the back seat several times and the heater would go to low setting and remain on all night. In a boat with more cubic feet the 2KW heater could be about right, depending on your conditions. I never had any problems with the Chinese heater once I got a good controller.

The Espar on the C-dory has been flawless as well. I just don't prefer the 4˚ differential between off and on. It's acceptable but 2-3˚ would be better.

Regards, Mel

 

[ssobol]

I'm in the process of installing a HLN 4KW diesel heater in my garage. These get good reviews and comes with good features. If it works out well, I'll consider a 2KW version for my CD22.