Weight Difference between Honda and Yamaha Outboards

My 1991 22 Cruiser was powered with a 70HP Evinrude (250lbs) and a 8HP kicker (60lbs) with 50 gals gas in two tanks under the splashwell.

When traveling downwind/downwave, the stern would always lift when overtaken by a following sea. I never took on any water over the splashwell. This held true even in big, choppy waves, both offshore in So Cal and in the PNW.

In my opinion, this was the designed behavior of the hull. This hull was rated for 70 or 90 hp in the era when a 70hp motor was 250 lbs.

When considering motors, remember the original designers intentions. This hull design has NOT been updated to accommodate modern heavy motors.
 
If you're worried about your engine being too heavy just add more chain to your anchor!! Seriously. This issue isn't so much weight, but trim. I have a lot of chain and rode, and it's a hassle pulling it through my windlass, but it sure does keep the bow down a bit.

But my 1993 hull, with a 1999 honda BF90 and a 2010 Tohatsu 9.8 sits with water collecting in the middle of the cockpit if my fuel tanks are half full or less. If they're full the water will sit in the sump by my transom. If I have longline gear, extra battery, a full tank and a cooler back there, it sits pretty stern heavy.

However the boat still is nimble and performs quite well as long as I do my job with the trim tabs. I wouldn't have a CD22 without trim tabs. They are the most critical upgrade you can make, and transform what can be a fussy, slogging boat into a quick an nimble ride.
 
Larry, are you saying that putting weight in the cockpit or another 100 lbs in the outboard would keep the stern from lifting in swells? My experience in various waters including S. Calif. PNW, Florida, etc. is that when the boat his on a plane, the boat continues to perform well, with weight aft. I don't get water in the splash well.

Now if you are saying that you never take any water into the splash well when going at 5 knots---I cannot argue against that. Except with light boat or heavy boat at rest or at displacement speed, there are situations where a sea may splash into the well, but never beyond. But I , run my boat from nothing in the cockpit with the Honda 90, and 5 gallons of gas, (Which is the way the boat is stored) to hundreds of lbs in the cockpit. The biggest difference is that I can get up to 30 mph with a light boat-and only about 25 mph with a heavy boat at sea level. I don't see much difference in the way the boat handles at slow speeds.

I would argue that the redesign of the bottom of the boat/hull in 1987 especially the reverse chine, gives more lift in the stern. I wasn't involved with C Dory's then, but my guess, is that the redesign was related to Honda expansion of all of their outboards to 4 stroke in 1985. (you know much more about that than I.) How would you redesign the boat for 200 lbs more on the transom? It is easy to say, that one might increase the inboard height of the splash well & the only place I would see where that would make a difference would be if you put several big people in the cockpit, when fishing, and then were backing down on a fish...but we don't use our boat that way. If you were to argue that that transom might need more glass, or a better tie insisted to the sides of the hull, I would agree with that, if you were increasing the HP--but we already know that the boats tend to be a bit on the squirrley side over 30 knots because of the flat bottom. The reason that many boats need more HP in this size range is because of the dead rise--difficulty getting on a plane, and more HP to drive a deep V thru the water on a plane.

It would be great to have a 100 hp outboard which only weighted 260 lbs. Maybe someday we will see that. But the way that most of us use the boats, top cruising speed is in the teens to low 20's, and 90 hp gives that at sea level with almost any load. At Powell, with about 10 to 12% loss of HP, I still can cruise in the teens, well on a plane, even with several hundred extra lbs (gear, food and water for many weeks) The reality is that we only cruised at planing speed about 25% of the time this year. Some of that was because we had to get the C Dory 25 we were taking to Antelope Pt Marina, for John and Grayle and had to cover 50 miles in just a few hours.

The other unknown is the longevity of these 4 stroke extra light motors. They may well be fine. But we will only know that after a few years of running them.
 
Larry H":sa2y7m4k said:
In my opinion, this was the designed behavior of the hull. This hull was rated for 70 or 90 hp in the era when a 70hp motor was 250 lbs.

When considering motors, remember the original designers intentions. This hull design has NOT been updated to accommodate modern heavy motors.
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I disagree. A large part of the dory design is its ability to carry a large amount of weight relative to its size. Because a 70hp 2 stroke was the motor 30 years ago doesn't necessarily mean that the boat was specifically designed to take a motor if this size, it just means that the boat has more capacity to haul a little more weight on board. Difficulty in a following sea is common, and can be mitigated greatly with good trim tab use, even with a heavier motor. But now I'm repeating myself.
 
It's obvious from real-world experience that the 22 still handles well with a fair bit of weight on or in the stern area. OTOH, I have heard (and read here) from people who have run the boat both heavy and light, that light is more fun and nimble. But they work either way.

OTOH, I haven't heard from anyone with a 478# main engine, a 70# kicker, AND full fuel tanks, a big cooler, two batteries, etc. It seems as though there must be some point at which handling suffers, and if so (I only say if since I don't know) then a lighter engine would give more flexibility to load up on gear. I'm not speaking of some ultra-light engine, but just "not a nearly 500# one."

I probably won't find out for myself, because as much as I think the Honda 115 is a super cool engine, I can't see putting on on my 22. But if we find out anything here, it's that there is a huge range of approaches and successful outcomes.
 
Engines sizes
Honda uses a 2.4 litre block to make their 115,135,and 150 hp. engines which for a cd-22 is way overkill

Yamaha uses a new 1.8 block for their new 115 hp , 2.7 block for their 150hp , 2.8 block for their 175 and 200hp

Merc uses a 2.2 block for their new 115 engine , 3.0 block fot their 150 hp.

Suzuki uses a 2.0 block engine for their older 115 engine ,a 2.9 block for their 150 and 175 hp engines

It all depends where one lives what engine you should be using because of service ,parts ,and resale . We live in SW Florida Honda does not do well down here they have many more corrosion problems and are 25% more for parts and to buy . Yamaha is very hard to beat down here .For the most bang for the buck is the new merc 115(2015) with the command thrust a bigger lower unit uses the 150 hp lower unit .
When it come time to repower I will definitely look at the merc's but that might be a long time I have 960 hours on a 10 year old motor .f-115 yami
 
thataway and Kushtaka,

The Honda website history shows the 90hp/358lbs was introduced in 1994. When I bought my 1991 22Cruiser from the factory, they were Johnson dealers, and frowned on any motor larger or heaver that the 70hp 2-stroke. As I was with an Evinrude dealer at the time, the Evinrude 70 was my motor choice. I chose that motor as it had better fuel economy at the time.

When I was running up coast to SE Alaska, I sure wished I had chosen the 90hp Evinrude, but the lower fuel economy would have made the weight/range problem worse.

In the seaway conditions I was concerned about, the wave trains ran about 15knots, and exceeding the wave speed could result in going 'over the falls' and 'submarineing' into the next wave. This required slowing to allow the waves to overtake the boat from behind. Being overtaken by ocean waves taller than the top of the boat made me appreciate a light stern that would lift. In my ocean running, I never took any green water over either end of the boat.

I never had trim tabs but I did fit a Doel Fin to allow the bow to be lowered to cut into the chop.

In 1990 I was told that the 22 was designed and sold as a 'fishing boat' with a simple interior. It was not intended to be a heavy well equipped cruiser. As far as I know, we were the first C-Dory 22 to do long range cruising. I have not heard of anyone else making the Alaska run in a C-dory at the time (1991). All along the way north, folks were astounded that we came from Seattle in that small of a boat.
 
Quoting Rain:

"You seem to have surmised the reason for my question! I was fortunate to get a ride (my first) on a C-Dory 22' last evening, and the owner said that while he really liked the Honda 90, if he were re-powering, he would go to the Honda 115".

This re-power choice would be an expensive mistake. No problem choosing Honda vs. others, choosing single vs. twins, possibly going up to 115 HP from 90 (exceeds hull rating for many post-1987 CD 22's). BIG problem using an almost 500# single motor. It would exert live and dead forces which could damage the transom. Not to mention the other detrimental effects of its weight and physical size. This is probably why you never see it on any of the CD 22's. Sorry if this sounds declarative or combative: I've made expensive mistakes around re-powering boats before, where I wish I'd listened to experienced advice prior. Mike
 
That is probably good advice, Mike. I doubt he will be buying a new motor. He has another, much bigger, boat that he uses most of the time. The 22' is pretty much a runabout for him. The Honda 90 is like new and will probably last longer than he keeps the boat. I tried to get him to sell it to me, but no dice! :) He has two boats and I have NONE! Just doesn't seem right.
 
westward":120wrfdi said:
It would exert live and dead forces which could damage the transom. Not to mention the other detrimental effects of its weight and physical size. This is probably why you never see it on any of the CD 22's. Sorry if this sounds declarative or combative: ...... Mike
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The fact is that many 22's today, do carry almost the weight of the current Honda 115 hp (478lbs) on the transom. A Honda BF90 at (358 lbs) plus a kicker of Honda 9.9 (98 lbs) (often plus) bracket--which comes in only about 20 lbs less than the Honda 115. There are a number (26 according to the web site) of C Dory 22's which carry 115 hp motors on more modern boats. One pre 1987 boat has a 115 hp. None of these boats have had transom failures due to weight or excess hp. Three boats list the Honda 115 as the motor (and this would be the older 115/130 block) Weight was 507 to 514 lbs.

I would not personally choose the Honda 115, but would seriously consider the lighter 115's. Lake Union Marine was selling the boats with 115 Mercs.

Larry, thanks for the interesting history! I first went to AK in 1992, and did see C Dorys in SE AK, but I suspect they were boats based in AK. I read that Honda went to all 4 stroke engines in 1985, I did not realize that Honda only produced outboards up to 40 hp at that time and the 90 hp didn't come along until the 1990's.

Interesting that the concept was only a fishing boat--the first C Dory I saw in 1980/81, was being taken to Catalina almost every weekend. However, I would have also been astounded at that time by a boat as small as the C Dory going to AK (since I was in a 46 footer). I did see a 24 foot Byliner making the trip however.
 
Great info eveyone. Mark Toland (one of original designers of the Cdory) went with the Honda 75HP (about 378#?) long before the Johnson 70HPs (about 248#) were obsolete. He would even argue strong for the 75HP Honda against the 90 HP. Mark also stated that he delivered the first 22 Cdory to Alaska himself in the 80s (probably with the Johnson 70HP?). We are still running the Johnson 70HP which is still a very good motor but somewhat underpowered in mid range if multiple people aboard or extra loaded. I sure want to keep the weight down as much as possible but I think its going to be the Yamaha 115 (386# - 25" shaft) or the Honda 100HP (366#)? enjoying everyones comments/knowledge.
 
Larry H
I thought the 22 cdory took a 25"shaft. If its a 20" shaft thats great news. Save about 10# and the Yamaha 115 at 377# just sounds alot better. Hope thats accurate.

Thanks,
Tommy J
 
Bob: the fact is actually that 2 motors mounted in separate places on a transom tend to spread out the weight and force, relatively towards the sides and away from the (weaker) middle. Plus, they're typically not running with force at the same time. If, in your wisdom, you decide to hang a Honda 115 off of your CD 22, I wish you the best of luck. I hope you don't encourage others to do so, however. Mike.
 
westward":2nvegyu0 said:
Bob: the fact is actually that 2 motors mounted in separate places on a transom tend to spread out the weight and force, relatively towards the sides and away from the (weaker) middle. Plus, they're typically not running with force at the same time. If, in your wisdom, you decide to hang a Honda 115 off of your CD 22, I wish you the best of luck. I hope you don't encourage others to do so, however. Mike.
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Mike, no where have I advocated a Honda 115 for a C Dory22. In fact I stated that I would NOT choose one. But I would choose a lighter 115 hp engine. I went back and read your threads thru the years, you had a 1991 C dory 22 with a 70 2 stroke and you had good service with that boat for your service that was ferrying passengers, and perhaps some freightt in and two and from the san Juan Islands. That is all well and good. But is different than running at boat loaded for a month at higher elevation or even in Alaska.

If you have twin 40's or 50's has you had in your 22 Angler, the force from both motors would be the same from both motors at a plane...There have been no failures on the 26 or so boats which have run 115 hp outboards on the 22's--and there is even a pre 1987 boat which claims to have a Honda 115.

You have made some statements which I do not agree with--such as putting the weight or power of a 115 would damage the transom. Just not true. You have also written:
possibly going up to 115 HP from 90 (exceeds hull rating for many post-1987 CD 22's).
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The rating was changed to 115 hp about 10 years ago, without any change to the hull.

Read what I post. You don't have to agree with me, but on the other hand, please do not chastise me for something which I did not advocate!
 
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