Which Boat? The Envelope Please!

S

Stuberg

New member
Well, I just returned from Seattle where I finished my analysis of the C-Dory versus the Cape Cruiser boats. Keep in mind that I am a complete novice so the best I can do is offer you my opinion.

I started my quest for a new boat by visiting with John Cameron of Y-Landing in New Hampshire. If you are in the market for a new C-Dory boat, I strongly recommend that you speak with John. He is outstanding. Even though there is an official C-Dory dealer in Michigan, I found that they don’t even like to return phone calls. John, on the other hand, arranged a full day of boat trials on beautiful Lake Winnipesaukee in the town of Meredith, NH. Wow, what a great spot to cruise in a C-Dory. I tried both the 22 and the 25 and enjoyed them both.

Of course, since I had heard about the new kid on the block, it was important that I give the Cape Cruiser Team a chance to show their wares. Well, show their wares they did. I found their boat to be impressive indeed. There have been other C-Brats that have examined and test driven the Venture 23 that they are now selling, and they have done an excellent job of pointing out the differences. My opinion is that Cape Cruiser has built a better boat. I found the boat to be more pleasing to drive with a lot less pounding than I experienced in the C-Dory boats. Whatever they have done to the hull is an improvement in my opinion. The boat seems faster and more responsive while cutting through waves with less denture damage. Needless to say, I was impressed.

Another interesting fact is that the Cape Cruiser Team is made up of folks that used to build C-Dorys so they know what they are doing. The brothers Sterner including Gene, Chilly, Barry, and Larry have been joined by Buck Williams and the legendary Ben Toland. Most of them are former C-Dory guys.

I test drove the new Cape Cruiser Venture 23 boat and visited the plant this past Friday and had a chance to meet the entire team and I can tell you from talking with each of them that they are serious about building an extraordinary boat. And what’s more, Ben Toland is currently finishing the mold for the soon to be released Venture 26 or whatever they end up calling it. Their shop is located in the old C-Dory plant and their landlord is Mark Toland. Talk about irony. Mark used to run C-Dory before selling it to the current owners. Mark even stopped by while I was there and gave me a complete history of the business starting with how his dad, Roy, got the whole thing launched. It’s a great story that I’m sure many of you already know.

While in Seattle, I also stopped by the new C-Dory plant and was given a tour by Jeff Messmer who is the company’s current V.P. of Sales and Marketing. Jeff’s an impressive guy and the C-Dory plant is a nice operation. There are definitely some hard feelings about what has transpired between the two companies but Jeff made a great comment. He said that the whole Cape Cruiser experience has made them better which I believe is true. Competition causes everyone to sharpen their pencils and work harder to make customers happy.

So at the end of the day it is we the C-Brats that have won. We now have two great companies competing for our business. That’s good!

While I said that I think the Cape Cruiser Venture 23 is the better boat, I think it is best compared to the C-Dory 22. Given that comparison, I think it has better features, advantages, and benefits. You truly get more for your money.

The next question is what will the Cape Cruiser 26 be like? I’ve decided not to wait since I can always trade up later. I’m going to buy the Cape Cruiser 23 to begin my boating career and see where it goes from there. The Cape Cruiser 23 feels like a 25 in terms of size but, of course, it doesn’t have the full shower and head. I’ve decided that I can live without those since the majority of my cruises on the Great Lakes will be day trips from one marina to the next.

Now I’m hoping that I can convince others to cruise the Great Lakes with me, particularly Lake Michigan. So come on C-Brats, let’s plan some Great Lakes cruises for 2006. I’ll be rigged and ready for action.

In the meantime, let’s let these companies battle it out on the marketplace playing field with the score being kept by users like us. I had a great conversation with Mark Toland and he said that he is very proud of the C-Dory boats he built during his tenure with the company but he also said that better boats can and will be built. Personally, I think the Cape Cruiser Team is lucky to have him as a landlord. He’s a sharp guy that knows a ton about boats and the boat business. It was fun to spend some time with him.

I’d like to see Mark more active along with his brother Ben in the whole boat building industry. They have a lot to offer. If Mark’s not building boats, I discovered that he’s into perfecting his potato shooter. Seriously! He has a potato canon that should probably be registered in Washington as a lethal weapon. Luckily, brother Ben is working daily on new design ideas which will benefit us all in the years ahead. What I saw of the Cape Cruiser 26 he is designing looked mighty impressive.

So there’s my initial analysis of the whole C-Dory and Cape Cruiser deal. It’s not technical and you probably didn’t learn anything new. But I am one more person that is saying: Check out the new Cape Cruiser Venture 23. It’s a great boat and I’ve already placed my order.

One last comment, I think that we should welcome all Cape Cruiser owners to join this group. You’re just not supposed to love one child more than the other and both of these boats come from the same lineage. Besides, this will save me from having to register CC-Brats.com or CapeCrusaders.com … whoops, somebody already registered CapeCrusaders.com … probably a masked man from Seattle.

:-)
 
I agree with Fishtales. Now that we've read comparisons in two or three threads, it's time to go back to what this forum is about. Namely C-Dorys.

I'm sure the Cape Crusaders would be welcome at a C-Dory gathering simply because they're distant cousins but I, for one, bought and own a C-Dory and that's where my interests lie. It's now incumbent upon the Cruiser group to develop their own forums for in depth discussion of their particular interest just as many other boat (and RV) owners have. I'm sure El Nerd would add a link to the CC forums if/when someone starts a group.

It's a big ocean and a big internet. Plenty of room for all interests.

Don
 
I am getting tired of all the friction, perceived or real, that this whole CC/CD topic has caused. There doesn't have to be a big controversy over it. Folks should buy whatever boat they like best, but I agree with Fishtales...A Fun and Informative Forum for C-Dory People!

The folks here are more than generous just by allowing us "wannabes" who have yet to get a CD the opportunity to participate...for which I am extremely grateful. I have learned a lot and enjoy it very much. So, because of the fact that I am not yet a CD owner maybe I have no right at all to even voice my opinion on the matter, but here it is anyway. Hey, you don't have Camaro owners trying to join the Mustang Owners clubs and going on their rallies, do you?

Just my 2 cents...and worth about as much.

Rick
 
Great points Rick, Don and Roger. I agree, this is a site for C-Dorys. When did C-Brats ever become a site for anything but?

Stuberg wrote:
So at the end of the day it is we the C-Brats that have won. We now have two great companies competing for our business.
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As a novice boater myself, I've thoroughly enjoyed my first season owning our C-Dory. I wouldn't think of owning anything else at this time. I love my C-Dory! I've learned an incredible amount of information about so many topics on this site and I feel fortunate to be among a group so knowledgeable and generous with this knowledge.

Stuberg, I wish you the best of luck with your new CC. I hope you get as much enjoyment with your boat as I have. But I, like many others, am also tired of the CC vs. CD debate. Because at the end of the day, this truly is "The Home for C-Dory People". And as Don said, that is where my interests (and loyalties) lie.

Peter
 
Congratulations Stuberg on what sounds like a great boat! I hope that you are as satisfied and fanatical about your purchase as so many of the C-Brat members are about our boats.

Perhaps you should start a web site devoted to Cape Cruisers, I know I would gladly refer any owners to such a site. As a member of this site for several years, my vote is to keep this focused on C-Dorys. There has already been a much greater than normal amount of friction on this site regarding the Cape Cruiser and I do not believe that it has been a benefit.

I know that if I was to join a Ford Truck web group and chat about how I believe a Dodge is better, or vis-a-versa join a Dodge site and brag about Fords, all heck would break loose. I would not do this! Chevy, Dodge and Ford all make outstanding vehicles! There is a priceless amount of knowledge, advice and experience on this site regarding the C-Dory boats, there is camaraderie among the members that I have not found among the other brands I have owned or crewed.

I for one agree there are a few items on the Cape Cruiser that I like over my C-Dory, but there are so many great things about the C-Dory that I would not trade. Every boat is a compromise, even my little "Chivita", but I would not trade her for a Cape Cruiser and I don't see the validity in participating in a group who constantly gets in heated discussions over which boat is better.

Having run numerous hotels in my career, I would not allow someone to enter my lobby and start telling my guests to go to the competition and stay there, especially when I know how great my team and property are. Coming onto this site and advocating that people buy some other company's boat is wrong.

Again, I wish all those who purchase a Cape Cruiser great voyages and a long and happy ownership. But please, if you want to write about how you feel your boat is better than mine, keep it off this site. I named my boat after the most beautiful woman I've ever met for a reason, please understand that I really don't give a hoot (trying to be nice in my choice of words) for anyone that tries to belittle either one!
 
The primary focus of this site is, and always will be, the people. As far as welcoming Cape Cruiser owners to our virtual Pub or our gatherings - it's a shame we even have to discuss that issue. We have a great tradition, albeit a relatively short one, of being a warm and friendly group of folks. Anyone is welcome regardless of the brand of boat they own, or whether they own one at all.

That being said, there is zero doubt in my mind what the focus of this site is, beyond the friendships that trump everything else.

The facts:

- The forums are filled with C-Dory specific information.

- The photo albums are filled with C-Dorys and C-Dory owners.

- The logo is a C-Dory.

- The "C" in C-Brats is for C-Dory, contrary to some suggestions that it could stand for something else.

- Our profiles, memberlist and the new Brat Map are tailored specifically to C-Dorys.

- Virtually every new member arrives here due to one of three things: Word of mouth from a C-Brat, the links at the C-Dory factory, and Google searches on "C-Dory".

- The C-Dory factory participates here, in a very hands-on and open way. The incredible, mutually beneficial relationship we have with them is unlike any other manufacturer/owner relationship I've been a party to.

While our conversations are unrestricted, and we've made it clear Cape Cruiser discussions are welcome and encouraged, I have no time (or interest) to modify the site structure to accomodate or encourage other brands of boats. That includes Arimas, Whalers, Bayliners, and yes - Cape Cruisers.

Just as Cape Cruiser chose to focus on building their boat, I choose to focus my time and energy on developing a site that targets what all of my C-Brat friends own, and what drove me to this wonderful group of folks in the first place - C-Dory. If there is sufficient interest to have a site more focused on Cape Cruisers, I'm sure somebody will build it.
 
The primary focus of this site is, and always will be, the people. As far as welcoming Cape Cruiser owners to our virtual Pub or our gatherings - it's a shame we even have to discuss that issue.
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I couldn't agree more. Lets leave it at that! :)
 
Stuberg,

Congrats on finally choosing the boat for you! I know you have been looking for quite some time and spent a lot of boat bucks coming to the decision you did. When you get your boat I would love to see what modifications you end up doing to it :) After all, we all end up modifying our boats to suit our needs. Be it adding downriggers or modifying the cabinets we all want things "just right".

One of the things that hooked me on the C-Dory was the people on this site. I see the pounding that a C-Dory does in the chop as one of the compromises I'm willing to live with for the less fuel used and the sea keeping ability it has. If I could get those in a CC with less pounding I just might "jump ship" too. But since I can hardly afford the cost of a new engine there is no way I could afford the cost of a new boat! And actually the one I would want to get is probably the TC255 anyway. Ouch! I did a rough price guestement and about died!
 
Stuberg -

I'll have to say I agree heartily with all that has been said in response to your post today!

I am at heart a C-Dory owner with over 1000 posts on the different C-D sites we've had the past several years, and am proud of our traditions and friendships.

I also belong top several other owner's groups, and enjoy sharing ideas on all of them, even though I don't own one of their type of boats. There's room for all of us in these discussion groups as long as we respect each other's loyalties and boundaries.

Looks like it's time for a C-COG site for all your new Cape Cruiser friends to share their new found enthusiasm with each other. Good Luck! Joe.
 
Congratulations Stuberg on finding the boat for you. Some people like Trophys, some like Arimas, some like Parkers. Some like C-Dorys and that's why they come to this site. I have to admit that I too have grown a little tired of this discussion. The fact that you're so enthusiastic and continue to come back to this site to praise a competitor makes we wonder if you're a CC plant. I wouldn't ordinarily jump to this conclusion, except that the first mention of the Cape Cruiser that I ever saw was a marketing plant on this site by someone from Cape Cruiser pretending to be an unbiased observer. If your not a brother-in-law of the Tolands I apologize.

I also want to make another observation as a 25' owner. The 23' CC isn't a larger and better 22 C-Dory, it is a smaller and stripped down 25'. I say this because it only weighs 500 lbs less than the 25, and has the same power rating as a 25'. If it had the stand up head, larger fuel tank and other amenities of the 25 it would probably weigh as much a 25. Regardless of marketing hype, when you load it up and with the deeper V you're going to burn substantially more fuel and need a bigger tow vehicle than you will with the C-Dory 22'. Whether this will really sell in the present fuel environment will be interesting to watch. I haven't seen the CC 23 and I'm sure it's a good boat. I personally look forward to seeing it on the water and welcome anyone that has one to the C-Dory gatherings. Heck, we even welcome people with home built boats. But I'm not interested in discussing it more on this site so that the Tolands can get more free advertising on our time.
Lyle
 
To quote 416rigby's favorite movie, "That just about covers the fly-bys."

Hey, we're not picking on the CCs here. There are no forums, albums and owners lists for Skagit or Olympic on the C-Brat site, either. And guess who makes those boats? The Reynolds family cruises in a Meridian, and we make 'em launch the CD14 tender if they want to join a CBGT. We even persuaded the C-Dory Marine Group to make the TomCat look like a C-Dory so we could keep the fine folks who own them around for the BBQ they bring to Blakely! And we were nice about it!

If I recall, in the initial thread about the CC the C-Dog site, Ken generously offered to expand the forum he maintains to include sections for new and future CC owners. Maybe that would work for a start. Ultimately, the CC owners would be best served by creating a forum site of their own, as others have suggested.

In the end, most anyone is welcome at our house, but please don't ask to park your car in our garage when you visit.
 
The C-Dory is the only boat I've towed that I'm not looking at some other boat thinking "Gosh, I wish . . ."

Completely satisfied with the economy, small tow vehicle, easy stowage, and all around affordability.
 
Thank you Bill , Thank you Mike, I thought that I may have to give up my C-Brat forum or give my friend Brian away . But It look like I am able to keep both. Eh shrimpin is good until the end of November ( 27 ) . My C-Dory sure attracts lot of attention in the bay cathching those little critters. Gary SEARAM
 
Sorry C-Brats but etiquette has never been my strong point. I purchased a new Honda VTX 1800F this year and was brash enough to attend both Honda and Harley motorcycle events. I had a great time no matter who was sponsoring the event. In fact, there were I lot more Honda people at the Harley event than I expected to see and it was fun to compare brands and the underlying technology of each bike. The Harley folks were glad to see more participants and it was fun to kid each other as to who made the best motorcycle. I, of course, said that owning a Honda means never having to turn a wrench. The response was that the trademark Harley ride is worth the turn of a wrench and some grease once in a while.

It’s interesting that not all of the C-Brats have the same sense of diversity and, more importantly, sense of humor. My opinion is that the Cape Cruiser 23 is the next boat in an evolutionary process. When I asked Ben Toland where the design came from he said that his intention was to improve the C-Dory boat by taking into consideration all of the feedback he has heard over the years. I must say that I like that. And if Ben is reading this, keep doing the great design work Ben. I for one appreciate your efforts very much.

I’m sure that the C-Dory company will be responding with modifications of their own in the near future and I find that great as well. I just love the competition because customers benefit.

I’ll make sure to put up a skull and crossbones flag before attending any C-Dory gatherings. That is unless I drive up in a bass boat.

:-)
 
Stuberg - no problemo, no need for the ol' skull and crossbones! You will be welcome when you pull up to a CBGT in your Cape Cruiser, just like Gordon and Pam will be welcome when they pull up in their <ahem> Bayliner. Just don't expect the focus of THIS site to change from C-Dory to something else that is not a C-Dory...
 
Thanks Pat!

At this point I think that my questions will be the same as a new C-Dory owner would have so I'll just pretend to have a C-Dory and fly undercover.

:-)

In fact, my next questions are about Radar/GPS/Depth Finder/etc. so I can learn how to cruise without being noticed in my shameful new boat.

:-)

By the way, Pat, you are highly regarded at the C-Dory company. They mentioned you and your boat Daydream by name. Evidently, they are improving the shower drain and door as well as some other things based on your feedback and experiences. In fact, Jeff Messmer showed me a new head for the 25 that looks really neat ... or at least as neat as a head can look. It appeared to have better features with much greater ease of use. Maybe they'll post some photos on the site in the future.
 
When you ride a honda to a harley event it's to admire the harley.


I have a ford explorer sport-trac. These vehicles are slightly unique and have their own following similar to the C-dory. There's even an owners group dedicated to customizing ect.. Anyone is free to join the forum and ask questions but it doesn't make any sense for a non sporttrac owner to post about another vehicle they saw that they think is better. Better for whom? Anyway hope this doesn't sound un-friendly cause it's not. Just pointing out stuff.
 
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