windlass

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jennykatz

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C Dory Year
2006
C Dory Model
23 Venture
Vessel Name
Little Treasurer
My windlass went out again on the Duck ?? I have the sprint 400 that I replaced about 6 months ago I bought the same one(sprint400) that came with the duck I used the 25 amp breaker and switch from the original The wire 10guage i believe goes from the windlass to the breaker and switch then all the way back to the battery switch.in the lazerette. The first sprint that went out the magnets on the sides fell offinside the motor I really dont want to take this apart I have to find my reciepts and call the internet store any suggestions before i call simpson -lawrence sprint windlass dealer??
 
jennykatz-

I'll let others tell you about how to handle the waranty issues, but will give you some suggestions on the windlass use.

The distance from your batteries in the stern up to the helm and to the windlass probably approaches 50 feet, roundtrip.

It's very important to use large enough wire to keep the voltage drop reasonable.

Your S/L Spring 400 has a 400 watt motor in it. To get 400 watts at 12 volts, you have to draw 33 amps (12 v x 33 amps = 400 watts). You probably have a 40 or even a 50 amp circuit breaker in the system. The motor can draw a lot of amps when it stalls out or is heavily loaded!

According to the wire usage tables in the W/M catalogue (p.552, 2006 ed.), a draw of 40 amps with a round trip of 50 feet needs a gauge 6 wire to carry the load with a 10% drop in voltage. The resistance of 10 gauge wire is two and a half that of a 6 gauge.

What happens when a too small gauge wire is used , is that the resistance drops the supplied voltage to the motor/appliance/ or electronic device.

The decrease in voltage means that the motor has to draw more amperage to do the work. More amps at lesser voltage means more of the energy is lost into heat in the coils and armature of the motor.

Another way to say this is this: Higher voltages have a greater push to overcome the internal resistance of the motor, and with additionally, they also create stronger magnetic fields, which makes the motor's use of energy more efficient. The resistance becomes less of a factor, and less of the energy is wasted on creating heat in the motor's wiring.

So if the supplied voltage is too low, the motor pulls excessive amperage and overheats as a result.

Motors like the windlass and engine starting motors, when overheated, frequently melt the solder in the armature's commutator, throw windings, or melt the wiring. Too much heat can kill any motor.

I'm not sure that this is what happened to your windlass motors, but it's something to consider.

Funny enough, the windlass often comes with fairly small gauge wiring itself. As long as the battery is close, no problem! But put it 25 x 2 feet away, and one ought to get out some big stuff!

I have a Simpson/Lawrence Horizon Express on the table behind me with a 1000 watt motor, and with 6 gauge wire coming out of it. If I install it in my Sea Ray, I'll have to use 2 gauge wire, which is regular battery cable sized!

Hope this helps!

Joe.
 
So maybe i have melted the windings of the motor because of using existing wire so i should see if i can get another windlass under warrantie or maybe change out the wire first and see if that improves it either way i need to look at the wire and increase the size to maybe a num 6i guess i should change the 25amp fuse to 40 or 50 amp why did sprint sella windlass with such a small fuse???
 
jennykatz-

If S/L equipped the windlass with a 25 amp fuse/circuit breaker, I wouldn't put a larger one in line, at least yet. 25 amps x 12 volts = 300 watts, but I seem to definitely remember it having a 400 watt motor. Maybe they wanted to be very protective of the motor, so limited the fuse/ circuit breaker to 25 amps.

This year they have changed the models around so that the Sprint 400 is no longer produced, and it has been replaced with the V 700, which draws a max. 45 amps and has a 500 watt motor.

I wouldn't tell the service representative too much about your wiring size. That might let them out of the waranty.

Other possible causes of overheating are simply overloading the windlass, such as using it to pull the boat to the anchor, or breaking out the anchor with it. You're supposed to motor up to the anchor, tighten the rode up with the windlass, wrap the rode around a cleat, and then use the boat's motor to pull the anchor loose. After it's loose, you can raise it with the windlass.

More to think about!

Joe.
 
10 guage with a 50' round trip is pretty light. At high loads, you are
going to see a large voltage drop and high heat in the motor.

The windlass can have short, lighter weight wires coming out
of the motor because the drop across those wires isn't going to be
that great --- because the wires are short. So long as the wire
is rated to handle the current without overheating, the short lengths
won't matter. It's the long run from the battery to the windlass and
back that matters.

Consider the size of the wires in the actual motor windings...the wire
in the windings is going to be much smaller than a long feed wire
should be.

Mike
 
Sea Wolf":1uwse8be said:
You're supposed to motor up to the anchor, tighten the rode up with the windlass, wrap the rode around a cleat, and then use the boat's motor to pull the anchor loose. After it's loose, you can raise it with the windlass.
Click to expand...

Joe,

Question from someone who does not have a windlass. I thought one of the main reasons to have a windlass was so that you could deploy and recover the anchor without leaving the cabin. Based on the method you described, it sounds like you would have to go out on bow in order to retrieve. Is that correct, or am I missing something. Thanks.

Rob
 
Rob - I am thinking that question has to do with how long and hard the anchor has been set, as well as in what bottom type. Most of the time, in my boating history in the MidWest, we could motor/windlass combination up to vertical, then break the anchor loose by driving, then finish windlassing.

I think Joe is saying that it's hard on the windlass to put that extra force of breaking the anchor loose in a hard set situation, so you need to tie off the anchor line to a cleat before putting excess pressure.

Many ppl run looped line around the anchor line so they can pull the anchor line alongside to tie it off before driving over the anchor to break it loose.

John
 
Most of the time (90%?) my anchor dislodges after I've pulled up all the slack while motoring forward slowly. The motion of the boat while moving directly over the anchor pulling the shank usually breaks it free. However, remember you have to tie off your anchor rode at your bow cleat if you're overnighting (and I route it off the bow roller), or leaving your boat for even a short time, or if there is wind, the windlass (nor bow roller) isn't designed to carry a constant load while OFF.
 
My Sprint 600 windlass KIT came with a 30 amp breaker. I see no reason to increase that breaker size recommended by the manufacturer.

Simpson Lawrence recommended the breaker be located near the batteries, something that I was unwilling to do so I simply connected #6 from the existing main 50 amp battery breaker in the starboard lazarette to the S/L breaker up in the helm area and used #8 duplex from the helm controller to the windlass itself. Total distance 20 ft. (40 ft. round trip and I had some wire left over.) This is a genuine C-Dory C-22.

At no time has the motor lugged down during retrieve. It does get warm to the touch on retrieve but certainly not uncomfortably so. Do I recommend using "light gauge" wires similar to the "Jenny B"? Nope. Follow the engineer's advice if at all possible but don't be afraid to experiment if you have the materiel and the time to play with it. The motor may be rated at 400/500 watts but it only pulls the max amperage for a very short time unless you have an all chain rode and like to use the windlass to break the anchor loose.

Don
 
Rob --

The answers above speak to the technical part of your question, but I'll take a slightly different tack -- why do we have a windlass?

We have only a few times deployed or retrieved an anchor from within the cabin, using the windlass -- during heavy rain and wind. Those times we have gone to the bow, when the rain later slacked, and 'tested the hook' with some tugs in reverse by the engine, then cleated it.

We find that 'feeling' the anchor set by keeping a hand on the rode as the anchor sets 'tells' us about the bottom conditions and how well-hooked the anchor is. That requires one of us at the bow. Then we cleat her off. Knock wood, we have yet to have an anchor pull free after an overnight set.

Retrieving, one of us is usually at the bow to 'feel' the release of the hook as the skipper gently drives ahead to dislodge the hook -- this protects the windlass from too strong a push by the boat -- if the hook doesn't release with a gentle nudge, the bow person cleats the rode and then we can get more push on the anchor without stressing the windlass.

So -- why have a windlass you might ask? Not necessary. It can be a comfort when there's heavy rain to set or retrieve from the warmth of the cabin. For us, it is to lift the weight of the anchor (plus attendant mud) and take the stress off a weak human back -- (our son required it for us!)
 
Our boat originally had an all chain rode. If we anchored in 50' of water,
it would be a lot of work to haul that in by hand.

Since all chain isn't needed in the Chesapeake, and since most of the
chain rusted anyway, I removed most of it. When I was pulling it up through the pipe, it actually shot rust pieces all over the V-berth.
Fortunately, the cushions are Sunbrella and the rust didn't stain it.

Wonder why they rigged the boat with 150' of chain? Anyone boating
on the Chesapeake with all chain? Is all chain really needed anywhere
else?

Of course, the first 10-20' should be chain, depending on your exact
preferences...

Mike
 
because they have cahin to sell, and not very good chain if it rusted that bad. several dealers have told owners that they need chain" to keep the bow down" what a load of "$#" Any boat with a out board can tilt the motor up or down to get the bow angle right or install trim tabs. They just want to sell chain..
 
starcrafttom":12xubj35 said:
because they have cahin to sell, and not very good chain if it rusted that bad. several dealers have told owners that they need chain" to keep the bow down" what a load of "$#" Any boat with a out board can tilt the motor up or down to get the bow angle right or install trim tabs. They just want to sell chain..
Click to expand...

I have had my rode run over before and nearly cut. I was thinking chain
would be handy in that situation. But, not worth the hassle. Especially
since my wife will often be the one hauling it all up (I can't be on
the bow very easily due to an injury.)

Mike
 
I don't know if JennyKatz's windlass was a factory installation or not. I have a factory 700, and a 50 amp breaker on the TC 255--the wire looks to be #10--which is way under sized. Since it is in the net, it is hard to determine the size. One of my projects will be to replace or at least parallel the wire, since the run is about 27 feet in the TC 255.

I have owned windlasses up to 3500 lb pull- (200 amps at 24 volts). Even with that size windlass, I do not pull the boat to the anchor, or use the windlass to break the anchor out. There have been times I have had to pull a heavy load (like hooking into a battleship chain)--but I did that in short bursts, so that the motor would not heat up.

Power the boat to the anchor, use the windlass to take up the slack in rope/chain. Break the anchor out with the boat. Use the windlass to bring the anchor to the pulpit and aboard.
 
Bill,

I just about always have someone on the bow when launching and recovering the anchor. The main function of the windlass is to get all the rope and chain down that small hole in the bow with a minimum of misery so I have someplace to carry extra gas.
 
The Windlass saga continues.I've taken the sprint400 in for serv . they say it will be no charge I bought the new one in july
The old sprint 400 lasted 6-7 yrs between the original owner and myself.So I just rewired the new sprint 400 into the same position and I thought is was good to go but for only 7months .
The problem I've been told is the sprint 400 has only a 125 watt motor surge to 275 watts a real wimp .When using my windlass I always start the motor and idle up to the anchor pulling as I go also I tie off the rode when anchoring . As far as the wiring goes the original owner had it installed at Cutters with number 8 wire going to the battery switch with a 25amp breaker this should be sufficient. I asked the factory rep what size wire he said num 8 was good .I asked simpson -lawrence if I could upgrade to the pro 700 they said no .My advice get the biggest windlass you can afford
 
I had a similar problem with a wimpy windlass. The first I installed was a Powerwinch 35 (supposedly could handle up to a 35 ft boat!). I liked its freefall feature (in print) and its purported 'high efficiency' motor that seemed to draw 1/3 less power than an equivalent other mfr winch.

Was this ever a big mistake. I used 8 AWG wire as recommended for my run length. The freefall worked, but required split-second timing to make sure you're backing down at the very moment you release it. I used it a total of 2 times before it wouldn't freefall anymore. It also stalled half way up when retrieving.

I called the mfr, talked to their 'guru', he asked how much my anchor and chain weighed. I weighed it and said anchor was 22# and chain about 23#. He went "whew" over the phone. Told me that it was way too much weight for this '35' unit, and that I need to get a smaller anchor for my boat -- it's way too much for a 25ft boat!! But what about the 600 lb pull spec you advertise -- oh he said, that's not 'dynamic' pull... He said I need to upgrade to a PW 45 model, that should do it (requires 5/8" rode and bigger chain which I had just purchased the size lower new). I said no thanks, returned it to WM (they were great, and I explained the situation), bought a Horizon 500, strung another 8 AWG wire in parallel, drilled new holes :x works perfect. :thup Disclaimer: Powerwinch may have revised their specs and design by now, so don't avoid them on my account.

Moral of the story -- there's no free lunch on power, wattage is what's needed to bring up heavy items (or geared down and come up slower). I'm still kicking myself for not realizing this, given my profession... :amgry
 
Steve-

I'm already taking your good advice! (Get as big a windlass as you can afford.)

I'm adding the Horizon Express Windlass pictured here on my Sea Ray 265.

IM002313.jpg

It's the same windlass as their Horizon 1500 except that it has higher gearing for faster retrieve. It has a 1000 watt motor and a 110 amp circuit breaker.

100 ft/minute power down, 80 feet/minute retrive @ 220 lbs load. Max pull 880 lbs. Uses 5/16-3/8 inch chain, 1/2 or 5/8" rope. Windlass weight: 44 lbs!

Good Advice!

Joe.
 
Geeeze Joe, that oughta do it, you can also use it to winch up your boat to the trailer when you're hauling out...! Now that you have such a beefy winch, guess you'll be looking at a beefy backing plate and very beefy bow roller. Whoa.
 
Not looking to hijack Jim's thread but his windlass woes has spread to my boat as well. In my case the South Pacific Breeze 700H that I paid 250.00 for two years ago developed a problem today in that the tension arm (holds tension on the rode) broke off.

Windlass93Angler.jpg



Well that isn't the real reason for this post. What I want to tell you folks is that finding a part for this windlass I thought might be a problem and I was considering how I was going to deal with finding a suitable replacement.

As it turns out, thanks to this internet age we live in, it wasn't hard to find the part after all. It is manufactured in Aussie Land, Downunder. I e-mailed them, had a reply within the hour, and had the item heading for a big bird by the end of the business day....for the total sum of $23.00 USD .

Like I said , I love the internet....thank you Al Gore where ever you are.
 
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