Xantrex TrueCharge 20 won't charge dead house battery

B

bmacpiper

New member
Hello all, happy summer to you.

I run two starter batteries, and a single large house battery. They are all Odyssey AGMs, and all are about 4 years old. My boat has a three-bank TrueCharge 20 which has served reliably so far. It also has a remote monitor panel, which only shows two batteries at a time, so no real way to know which two are being displayed.

The battery switches are also quite complex, having been installed by EQ Marine for the first owner, who intended to do long term cruising. There are on/off switches for port starting, starboard starting, and house, plus on/off for an emergency parallel that I believe only ties the starting batteries together. There are also two VSR's, which I believe protect the starting batteries only. I am not certain the house is not included in the emergency parallel; it is quite an operation to tear apart the bank of switches and I have not yet done so.

About 4 weeks ago, I was in the boat for something, and must have turned on the chart plotter--I left on the switches for depth sounder, GPS, and compass when I exited, and of course returned to find a dead/low house battery. I had also used a starting battery to power a sheep fence for a few days, and it was low also but not dead. The power cord to the boat was unplugged for those same four weeks (ahem).

When I discovered that one motor wouldn't turn over, I found the unplugged cord and plugged it in. A glance at the remote panel showed no lights, save for a slow blink on the charging light, which is not correct--normally there would be lights in the voltage sections, and also a steady charging light. A quick web search revealed that if the first battery to be checked by the charger didn't "qualify", the charger would return the error I was seeing. I guessed the starting batteries were first in line, and so I thought perhaps turning on the emergency parallel would rectify things, which it did--after unplugging/replugging, the charger had normal lights and went into charge mode.

Went out on the water the next day and set some crab pots, and then did a wash down of the cockpit (including rinsing with buckets of water). I noticed the bilge pump was really running slow, and later found the chart plotter to be cycling off, and anchor windlass ran super slow until I started a motor and revved back and forth in forward and reverse to get some juice to the house battery. Also did a run before pulling the pots with the electric pot puller. This worked and we got home OK.

I plugged in again that night (normal lights on the monitor panel), and checked things about 24 hours later by turning on the chart plotter. (As an aside, anyone know a way to display battery voltage on a Raymarine? I can't find it, and it seems like such a simple oversight-I hate my Raymarine stuff sooooooo much). The chart plotter turned itself off within less than a minute, so I have some juice, but not much.

All I can figure is that perhaps the charger "qualifies" each battery before charging, by checking existing voltage? I'm hoping someone can tell me how to bypass this and get the house battery topped up again? I'm also wondering why the charger won't charge a depleted battery, and all I can come up with is heat or something like that.

I'd say the odds that the Odyssey has failed are very low--the design life is 10+ years and they are designed for deep cycle or starting, either one. But I suppose it's a possibility.

Wondering if I should put a standard charger on it to bulk up, then see if the xantrex will finish. Also wondering whether the xantrex has ever charged it--it's massive (2100) and with motor input could go a loooooong time. But, we do use a lot of Downriggers, windlass, etc. so guessing it has charged previously.
Any thoughts or help would be most welcome...

Thanks to all and see you on the water,
Ben
 
Quick update--finally got hold of Xantrex, a very knowledgeable and friendly Chinese lady answered. She suggested the following:
--Check voltage at the house battery during charging to verify charger output to this battery (duh, sometimes I can be so dense...)
--If there's voltage, load test the battery and/or do the Odyssey thing of full charge, then see where voltage is in an hour (I think 12.6 or below after an hour means battery has failed, but will have to recheck notes)
--If there's no voltage increase to the battery during charging, do a hard re-boot of the charger, by disconnecting all a/c and d/c wires to it and leave it unpowered for an hour, and then reconnect and try again.
--She said the charger does a sort of self-test as it's charging, and if it senses that the battery isn't taking a charge, it shuts off. With a discharged battery, she said it's possible that the charger will charge for a while, sense that the battery isn't taking a charge fast enough, and shut itself off (even though it may in fact be taking a charge but slowly, especially with such a large battery).

So, will try all this and report back.
best,
bmc
 
I started a motor and revved back and forth in forward and reverse to get some juice to the house battery

No neutral?

I can't diagnose your issue, but I know the feeling about not understanding what the prior owner had going for electrical setup. What made sense to them might not to you. I basically pulled all mine out and started over. No need for everybody to do that.

What I will recommend is that you buy a Brother label maker. http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/3 ... fgodDl0PxA

They are worth their weight in gold and only cost $10. Every time you do anything electrical, have this handy. What makes sense to you today might not tomorrow (or next year). Once you put the wording in ("port side house negative") you can print several labels and space them out if necessary. It has saved me hours of wire tracing over the years in boats and old cars. You can also label things before you disconnect them.

The labels will stick to wire insulation, but not for years. For that, you need to wrap the label around the wire and adhere it to itself, making a little flag out of the label. Nothing is more frustrating than finding a few labels in the bilge.

Good luck.

Mark
 
Thanks Mark! I have a label maker and it's a great suggestion that I'll use.

As to neutral, there is not enough output at that point to help the house battery. At least not in the short term.

One thing that always perplexes me is how often the VSRs are activated/open. It always seems like they're open even when the charger is on, but occasionally they do close.

Will report back as this develops.

best,
bmc
 
First what size are these batteries? Reserve capacity would help the most. Case size (like group 27) would also help.

Many battery chargers will not charge a completely depleted battery--but apparently you got them to accept some charge.

I agree with what the "Chinese" lady told you. But there is no way that the Odyssey battery is going to last 10 years the way your are using them. If you completely discharge any battery (except some of the Li ion) you have caused damage to it. Not completely charging them after each use is also hard on them. If you discharge any battery to less than 12.2 volts (50% discharge state) you have shortened the life span to some degree. (again Li ion are exceptions).

Unfortunately Xantrex is not as good as in the "old days"--since they are now all made in China--still a decent charger, but not today's best.

What you don't have apparently, is a volt meter to measure each battery. I bought my son a small battery monitor (about 1" in diameter for about $5 on the internet"--I would put one of these on each battery at the minimal. Somewhat better is a Victron 702, which at least monitors the house battery state of charge and amps in and out, and voltage of one other battery.

Most likely the VSR are between each start battery and the single house battery.

As Mark suggests, get a labeler, dig into the situation, make a schematic of how your batteries are hooked up, label each wire, and keep the schematic on the boat.

To try and recharge and test--at this point, put a good auto type of charger on each battery, and see how well it charges them. Give them each 24 hours, charge, then let lest as you charge the next battery. The resting battery should read 12.6 to 12.7 volts, after 24 hours rest. Also get a Harbor Freight battery tester, the correct specs for your batteries, and load test them at this 24 hour period.

My best guess is that you are in for a new set of batteries. Make it a religion to always shut off the main switch, and any parasitic drains...VSR may cause parasitic drains, as can radios and chart plotters.

Your battery charger is most likely OK--and when you have good batteries, on then it will work as intended. I have owned the Xantrex True charge 40, with the remote--but I had other monitors as well.

The Odyssey are good batteries, but any battery if drained down will not hold up.

Your engine should have a lever which you can pull up or indent to allow higher RPM in neutral--I see that the 50 HP etec (at least current) claims a 75 amp alternator output. I would want to verify what your engine (2007?) have. Generally the mid size motors don't have huge output. There are some disadvantages using any outboard alternator (using the word somewhat loosely) output, since regulation is sub optimal.
Keep us in the loop as you test and repair.
 
FWIW- Years ago we used xantrex chargers in our ultra-luxury motorhomes. Whenever the battery voltage dropped below a certain point the only fix was to disconnect all power to the charger including 12 volt and 120 volts in order to reset the charger.
 
I'm probably the biggest fan of Odessey batteries posting here, but I agree with Bob on each and every one of his points.
Just a few over-discharges DRAMATICALLY reduces the lifespan. This can happen easily with just a few moments forgetfulness or inattention in Switch-craft (may I call it that?) and BAM! you've pulled it down to 12.1V and irreversible (but cumulative) damage.
They are great batteries, but expect a 10 year lifespan only if you keep it on a charger and use it only to charge your cell phone or key fob. 4 years from stamped date of mfg for tires and batteries is typical, even for good ones. If you get more, consider yourself lucky. I would no more travel with 10 year old boat batteries than 10 year old tires on either truck or trailer or spares. 6 years for an Odessey would be more reasonable if lightly used (at 3 years my 3 78# Sears group 31's are notably weaker, but after retiring next year I'll have more time so a lost boating weekend won't be as big of a deal). 4 years heavy use and you're golden if you never got stranded, so buy new ones.
Cheers!
John
 
As a side note on the labeling, what I do is put the label-maker label on the wire "long wise" (i.e. opposite to the flag way) and then put a section of clear, non-adhesive shrink tubing over the label and extending slightly onto the wire insulation on each end of the label -- and then shrink it on with a heat gun or other heat source. They never fall off that way (but you can remove them easily by cutting the tubing if you ever want to).

Obviously this only works for wires to which you can get a heat source, and also you have to be able to slip the tubing on (so may not work if ring terminals are already on both ends). But when it can be done, it works well.

I get the non-adhesive polyolefin shrink tubing from McMaster Carr (the adhesive type makes an illegible mess). Their part number 7856K14 (clear) is one size in the range and you can see the others from there.
 
Thanks to all for the thoughts and suggestions.

As an aside, from Odyssey's manual, they state numerous times that the batteries can be stored with or without float, but to charge when they reach 12.0 V or 24 months, whichever comes first. So it would seem that they are at least a little more forgiving than traditional deep cycles.

Anyway, I've owned many Odyssey's over the years for boats, motorcycles, and cars/trucks, and I would be calling to complain if they were failing at 4 years. This has never been my experience; they've all gone 6+ years with "average" use and maintenance charging.

For clarification, I do use the bulk/absorb/float mode on my charger; the current state of affairs (har har) was unusual and a mistaken light left on. So normally my batteries do get fully charged after every use, this was why the problem showed up in the first place, i.e. house not charging during my normal routine.

In any case, I did disconnect and reconnect the power cord to the boat again in order to get the charger going and to test voltage at the batteries to see whether they were receiving voltage from the charger or not. All three were getting good voltage.

I then disconnected power, and read voltage; house 13.5, starboard starter 13.5, port starter 12.77.

I left power disconnected for 2 days (but was lazy and didn't yet disconnect ground straps) and checked again (all battery switches and parallel remain OFF). House 12.86, starboard 12.86, port 12.84. So go figure, but all three are showing 100% charge after 2 days, and I'd have to say all is well. My best guess is that a day on the water gave enough juice to the house battery to get the charger to recognize it again.

Nonetheless, lesson learned and I'll be more religious about turning off battery switches. My bilge pump is of course hard wired (important in Seattle winter!) but with the maintenance charging this has never caused an issue.

OK, thanks again and see you all around.
bmc
 
I dont know if this helps but Odyssey has tech support info online

FAQ
http://www.odysseybattery.com/faq.aspx

Go to http://www.odysseybattery.com/
and click on Tech Support tab

SOP to recover from deeply discharged batteries
http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents ... DYSSEY.pdf

I bought a Battery Minder standalone charger for auto and marine batteries, and feel it prolongs batteries when used often.

Odyssey had their own line of stand alone chargers. I have not compared them to Battery Minder models but it might be useful to read about the features and benefits
 
Hey all--for the archives...

I got to re-visit this topic today (a year later), thanks to a GFI in the boat that had popped (the charger plugs into this GFI, but that situation will be getting modified...). My two starting batteries are at 0.3 and 0.8 volts, respectively. House is at 11.89.

The starters are obviously sulfated and toast. However, West Coast Batteries (who I've used extensively and is a major distributor for Odyssey) said that the comments above about going below 12.2V are not true. He said the Odyssey batteries are designed to do 400 cycles to 10V, and thinks my house will likely be fine after charging.

Anyway, I'll post again once I have a chance to charge and then let it sit for 24 hours. Best to all as always.
bmc
 
Thanks for the follow up.

Why were your engine start batteries at less than one volt? That should never happen, unless there is a load on them. My Sam's club group 31's AGM keep a full charge for months--unless there is a load. So what killed your batteries? It was not the lack of a charger.

What size batteries do you have? Have you done what was suggested by several folks last year? (check out wiring diagram, label wires, put in battery voltage/amperage monitor?

Unfortunately just checking the voltage at 24/48 hours after charging, gives you absolutely no idea of the state of the battery. That just shows that it has a surface plate charge.

Incidentally many batteries will last 10 years, with good care. My RV starting batteries (Starting a 350 HP diesel) are 10 years old. Plain old lead acid batteries. They are probably going to have to be replaced this year...

As to charging your totally discharged engine start batteries--you will have to jump them to get them started charging. Just hooking up a charger will not do the trick. (See Odyssey's PDF on charging fully discharged AGM's)

The life time of batteries/vs cycles depends on may factors, including the depth of discharge, the length of discharge time (Rapid discharge is much harder on a battery than a slow discharge), temperature. How the battery is re-charged.

Before you put another $400 or $500 worth of engine start batteries in the boat, find out what toasted the ones you have.

Good luck on the project.
 
Thanks Bob, all good points and I'll follow up on them! You are correct, I (stupidly, again) left the battery switches turned on over the winter, so when the GFI popped and disabled the charger, parasitic loads slowly took them down to zero. There are a few things I can think of, like LEDs on the relays, etc. Bottom line is I didn't consider the possibility of losing the charger mid-winter and therefore was careless with the switches. West Coast assures me that the two starting batteries are not coming back from the dead, and since they're 5 years old with abuse, and only $113 each, I'm just going to replace them. I do agree about them holding charge--they do so beautifully under normal circumstances. Fingers crossed that the house battery recovers ok.
BTW, what do you mean about voltage not giving an idea of the condition of the battery? If it holds charge for a day or two, why do you say that this doesn't give a good indication? This is always the test that Odyssey has had me do, so I'm curious to hear more about that.

Cheers,
bmc
 
Voltage is very easy to measure, and you have the means--I believe. The real test is capacity--in the house battery is it reserve capacity (there are many ways to measure capacity--but several which measure house use are:

1. Reserve capacity. There are a number of ways of measure Reserve capacity but one very common way is to put a resistive load of 25 amps, and see how long it takes to go to a voltage of 10.0. If it is 150 minutes, then the Reserve capacity is 150.

2. Amp Hours (the number of amps x 20 hours to fully discharge is an approximation. For example if it takes 5 amps to fully discharge the battery in 20 hours, that is a 100 amp hour battery. The useful capacity of that battery is 50 amp hours. The higher current draw, the less capacity.

To know the capacity of your battery (the measure of usable amount) we would have to put a load on it, and compare with when new. You don't have a meter to measure amp use, so we cannot compare.

The easy test, is resistive load--Harbor Freight 100 amp 6/12 volt battery load tester is $22. Good way to check the battery---also you can take the battery to any auto supply shop and they will test it with a load tester.

As any rechargeable battery is cycled, their capacity decreases. If a battery is abused, then its decay is more rapid. Lets say that Odyssey says that 400 cycles is their capacity (just a little over a year's use, If you are fully cycling 80% of capacity each day. Here is the quote from the technical manual for odyssey batteries: "The lower the DOD the higher the number of cycles the battery will deliver before reaching end of life." They do claim that there are 400 cycles before any loss of capacity--according to their graph (sorry it is not copyable) they have zero loss of capacity until the 400 cycles, and then a fairly rapid decay. The measurement is run time in minutes (108) steady to 400 cycles, and then i goes down to 60 minutes over the next 200 cycles. A little suspicious curve--because batteries have a certain state of decay, although be it small. Also this test is with a very low load--it appears to be less than one amp. So, under certain circumstances, this does give 400 cycles--but I wonder if I did the same thing with my battery--we don't know, since it is not tested that way...What if the load was more realistic\ic--like 10 amps? Again--not done--or not published.

This is why I suggest that any serious about maintaining his batteries, will get the Victron 702 or similar gauge. I have the Xantrex Link lite. It measures the amp hours of discharge, the number of amps being discharged, and an approximation of the state of charge.

A L A battery which is 10 amp hours will have a voltage @ steady resting state of 12.6 to 12.7 (AGM run slightly higher). But if the capacity was 100 amp hours when the battery was new, and now the battery has been heavily cycled it may only have a capacity of 50 amp hours--or usable capacity of 25 amp hours (using the formula, that you should not discharge more than 50%. Yes, I know that Odyssey says you can discharge further....My Sam's AGM (By East Penn) costs $180 The 100 amp hour rate is 110 amps. The Odyssey group 31 which is comparable is $420. So I can buy two of the Sam's club for the same price. Is that Odyssey battery that much better? I don't honestly know.

My guess is that your voltage sensitive relays were what killed your start batteries--they have a small load, but it is there--and that is why I cut my battery all of the way off--no connection to even the voltage sensitive relay...take the battery cable off the terminal! OK if you don't depend on a bilge pump.

I do check my boat at least once a month when not using it--includes checking the battery voltage.
 
A great, informative post. Thank you for taking the time to clarify marketing data vs real world. Definitely just learned something.
Best, bmc
 
thataway":1735o1r2 said:
Thanks for the follow up.

Why were your engine start batteries at less than one volt? That should never happen, unless there is a load on them. My Sam's club group 31's AGM keep a full charge for months--unless there is a load. So what killed your batteries? It was not the lack of a charger.

What size batteries do you have? Have you done what was suggested by several folks last year? (check out wiring diagram, label wires, put in battery voltage/amperage monitor?
Click to expand...

I have to chuckle at the crossover of this topic and my current one, Bob! Yes, I am forgetful and somewhat dense at times, and somewhere in the dark recesses I thought, "Didn't Bob once tell me that a battery can be charged and still toast?" and lo and behold, here I found your old comment to that very subject! So, better late than never, right? Yes, taking the suggestions, as time allows. Hoping to have it all sorted tomorrow with a load test and probably a new house battery.

Best to you and all the people here that continue to be helpful, in spite of my stupidity...

bmc
 
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