Balsa core problems

G

gary allen

New member
I was very disappointed to discover some rot in the balsa core of my new C-Dory.

I bought my 22 Cruiser in August of 2004. I have kept it in a slip at a marina here in Bodega Bay, on the northern California coast. Although the boat was not covered, the bilge pump was functioning throughout the winter rains, and I cleaned the boat and took it out regularly.

I took the boat out of the slip recently to clean it and prep it for salmon season. As I was checking the tightness of the screws securing the cleats holding the fuel tanks in place, I noticed that the screw on the inside corner of the starboard side (low point on the deck) just spun in place and wouldn't tighten. When I removed the cleat, I found water inside the screw hole, and as I inserted an allen wrench to check the "punkiness" of the wood, I found rotted wood going back at least 3/4 of an inch.

Securing those cleats with screws in a balsa cored boat seems to be a major design flaw. I'm not quite sure what to do at this point. Should I call C-Dory and check on the hull warranty? Check with the dealer? Repair it myself with marine grade epoxy? And if I do, how long do I have to let it air out and dry? With salmon season coming in two weeks and with rains on the way, I feel some pressure to take care of this problem right away or at least do a temporary fix...

Somewhat disillusioned,

Gary
 
The balsa core is the one single construction detail which almost made me reject the boat.

It is old technology, and has caused significant problems, even in high-end boats for decades.

There are other materials available which are impervious to moisture, and I would have been much more comfortable if one of those had been used. The only downside I am aware of is a slight increase in weight.

Well worth it, IMO.

In fairness, many boats have used balsa core for years without problems. The key is simply to make it impossible for water to gain access to the balsa.

I'm convinced that C-Dory has accomplished that so far as the hull is concerned, but obviously running screws through the glass into the unprotected balsa is a significant design flaw.

I'm surprised that we have not heard of this before. Perhaps the area is normally waterproofed, and it was somehow omitted on your boat. :roll:

Regardless, You should notify your dealer and the factory ASAP.
 
I have read other posts here, I believe of the same problem of the screws pulling out. Not necessaarily the water migrating in though. I must say I was pretty sold on the C dory for everything else, but this and the fact that it is not self bailing are two points that I kept coming back to. My brother had a fiberform that ended up with a rotten transom, lost a bit of $ on that one. So the wood in the construction was one thing that bothered me. Even though I would say it seems like it is not a big problem for C Dory's. But I bought my last boat specifically because it had no wood in it. And it seems to me that thats the way boats are heading now. So even though I love the C Dory I have ended up buying a new palmer defiance, three reasons swayed me. 1. No wood construction 2. self bailing cockpit sole 3. Ten year hull warranty. What kept swaying me towards a Cd was all you fine people on this site, I must say this place is one of a kind. And the information and comraderie shared here is fantastic. If I could have afforded it I might have gone to a CD25 because it has the self bailing. But a little over my price range. But for me and the fishing that I like to do I feel the safest with the self bailing. The no wood is a big selling point and probably is one of the reasons that they can offer a ten year hull warranty instead of a five year which most manufacturers have. I personally would not fix it myself as your boat is too new to have such problems, and is under warranty. I believe it would either be the dealer or the factory's problem to deal with. Quality of construction issues can come up in any boat line, the quality is only as good as the employees who make the boat. You might get a newbie or someone who's quitting soon, so their attention to detail isn't as good. Anyone ever look at the minnow album on this site? I meant to ask if anyone knew anything about that boat and its owners. Seemed like they were not too happy. And not sure, but in one of the pics, it looks like you can see the edge of a balsa core in a stringer that isn't encapsulated, or not very well at least. Anyway, good luck in the repair end of it.


Sark
 
ArimaSark
The Palmer is a nice looking boat for sure. Comparing hull designs, it is quite different then the C-Dory. No one boat could possibly fill the needs of every boater. The C-Dory has found a niche in the market, and the owner loyalty should speak for itself. I'm glad you have found the boat of your dreams. Happy boating.
Terry
 
We are looking at changing how the fuel tanks are anchored in the 22. If there happens to be some water intrusion as mentioned in this post it is isolated to the direct area of intrusion. With the end grain balsa that we use it will not spread throughout the boat. We hesitate to make a change to a different core after very few issues with the balsa core over the 25 years that C-Dory has been building boats. Balsa also has some really great characteristics that are hard to replace with a foam core.
 
Correct me if I wrong, but, In addition to using the end grain balsa, I believe that the balsa is sliced into small 1"x2" cubes and that each cube ends up somewhat encapsulated in resin. That would make it about impossible for moisture to migrate past the infected cube. ...I too had loose fuel tank hardware and worried about moisture damage but after the Seattle B.S. factory tour, me no worry.. The dealer should fix you right up
 
Just a comment. This topic just appeared, either today or yesterday, on the site. And we already have an intelligent response from the VP of the company, at the factory. Pretty impressive.

tom/terraplane
 
We have owned three boats with extensive use of end-grain-Balsa (2 C- Dorys and 1 Olympic) with no negative experiences. As Jeff has stated above and all of us already know, it's that core that makes our boats so darn buoyant (coupled with the stability of that dory-style-hull).

By the way, the Olympic had (and may still have) a 10 year warranty on the balsa cored hull and decks.

Powerboat Reports submerged (in sea water for several months) a piece of Marine grade Balsa a few years back (bare untreated stuff) and found very little water intrusion. The end-grain orientation of the wood is a natural barrier to moisture.
 
Gary - repair it yourself at your own risk! Nothing made by man is perfect, and the C-Dory is no different. The difference is that the dealer or the factory will take care of it - give them a chance, and don't be discouraged!
 
Gary,

I can sure understand your disillusionment, your boat is still brand new especially if you look at how well C-Dory's age. There are at least 6 C-Dorys up here in Sitka out in the various harbors that were built in the eighties. All of them look like they are used commercially and are uncovered. Poking around them, looking at all the custom additions, often any repairs made out of whatever material was available at the moment has made a real C-Dory believer out of me.

Several C-Dory owners have either already opened up those screw holes, filled them with epoxy and then redrilled and mounted their tanks, or like me, are planning to do so. At least one repeat owner is planning on doing that to his brand new C-Dory. If you read up on balsa cored boats I think you will find a great many fans of this style of hull. Most technical discussions that I have read also recommend the epoxy bedding of fastenings just like you brought up.

Although balsa core is "old technology" as one contributer points out, there are not too many areas harder on a boat nor more dangerous for a crew than the typical Alaskan winter. Apparently what frequently happens up here is that a boat cockpit gets several inches of rain in it which then freezes and gets covered with a foot of snow. This sits for several weeks or more before it all melts enough to be removed. Tapping the hulls of these old C-Dorys that have been worked like hell and then left open in the slip year after year has convinced me that I bought the best boat for the money. They are still solid, I view that old technology as exceptionally well proven technology, so what if some old fart thought it up fifty years ago, done correctly it works very well.

If you are carefull I'm sure you could perform the epoxy fix, but don't get too discouraged about the overall integrity of that hull. People up here don't put up with crappy boats as their lives depend on not getting wet. Mention to an old fisherman up here that you have a C-Dory and you'll get a nod of acceptance, yeah it's not a seiner, but you must know something about boats and they'll open up to you.

"Chivita" Dave
 
Gary,
Check out all the posts under "Bulging Fuel Tanks". There is a lot of good info concerning your exact same problem. Regardless of how you get the problem repaired, by the dealer, factory, or DIY, I would be leary of simply patching the holes and resecuring the screws. The thin fiberglass layer over the balsa will never hold the screws very well. I think the best fix would be a molded fiberglass lip instead of the starboard. Otherwise you need some method of bonding the fasteners in a way that seals the hole to water intrusion. There were several good methods mentioned in the above thread. Good luck with your repair. I know it is irritating to have problems with a new boat, but it really is a minor thing.
 
Thank you, everyone, for the responses to my concern about the problems around the screws securing the fuel tank cleat. After reading all the responses and reading back in the forum about people who had similar problems, I felt more reassured about this being a relatively minor problem.

I did call the dealer, but he wasn't very responsive and said he couldn't get me in until April 13th. So I decided to do the repair myself after reading what others had done. I simply cleaned out the hole to the best of my ability, left it open to dry for 48 hours, then used a hair dryer and vacuum cleaner. I later plugged the hole with some heavy duty, slow curing marine grade epoxy. I will redrill and attach the cleat this evening.

I'm regarding this as a temporary fix, and when I have more time later in the year, I plan to deal with the screws in some other fashion.

Although the consensus seems to be that the water intrusion would be confined to a small area given C-Dory construction techniques, I still feel a different securing system would be a realtively easy fix for the factory and would offer owners more peace of mind.

Thanks again,
Gary
 
Back when I was ambitious enough to tackle a complete take-down of a small runabout (totally gutting it out from the floor construction to the transom) I found the foam (yes, foam!) to be totally waterloged :!: :!: :thdown
I don't believe it when they say stuff like "foam is impervious to water" all you need to do is have it freeze, and water (ice) will eventually force its way into what ever material it is, given enough freezings and time.
I opt C-Dory stick with good old wood :thup :love .

Now, about the brackets on the floor: I had issues with that for several years (in the cabin) and finally put a stop to it by making larger brackets, and sealing the brackets to the glass with some good marine sealant. No more brackets coming loose since! Maybe I'll post some pix of mine when I get back... gotta go now ... :wink
 
"found the foam (yes, foam!) to be totally waterloged" -- as much as I love Whalers (still have a 21 & 13) they have a propensity to get waterlogged foam in the hull/transom curvature. Nothing is perfect.
 
boatguy":2vnt0pv2 said:
We are looking at changing how the fuel tanks are anchored in the 22.
Click to expand...

Jeff -

We were wondering what you guys came up with for this fix?

I agree with you about the limited damage any water intrusion may cause. My 1987 CD22 had almost all the screws pulled out, and I found the wet balsa to be confined to a very small radius around the individual holes. It seems to me that one small bottle of Git-Rot epoxy was enough to fill all the voids after hogging the wet wood out.

Nevertheless, it should be fixed if for no other reason than alleviating the stress it causes the boat owner.

Thanks,

Mike
 
I found a small crack in the rear deck of my 81' 22 classic this spring. This boat as far as I know has been in Alaska for all of its life. The glass and core was wet in about a 4-5" area. I firstly ground the gelcoat away from the bad area away until I was away about 2" out from the visible damaged area. I placed a heat light on it for a week to dry it out and than ground the glass that was damaged. I used a product that is called fiberfiller, which is basically strands of fiberglass, and resin to fill the the hole. I than applied a thin layer of glass over the whole thing and applied 2 layers of gelcoat. At the start I was really upset about finding the damage but a good friend told me "Its not the end of the world, its part of being a boat owner". What good encouraging words, don't be quick to judgement, these are fine vessels with unique problems and common problems. However the vessel itself is diamond in the rough.
Shaun
 
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