Foam in V-Berth or not?

[colbysmith]

Want to resurrect this discussion again as I got my boat out of winter storage and ready to do some work on her before all the ice is off the lakes. I've been reading some of this info regarding digging foam out of the bow and replacing with hatches. Seems like most discussion hinges on flotation...but would that foam be helping to stiffen that area as well? The bow takes a beating as it punches through chop and waves. To those that have done this modification and have a good bit of sea time since, have you noticed any differences in how your boat handles? Also if one was to put a hole in the bow with a submerged object, are you more apt to take on water faster without the foam up there? Colby

 

[mgarr682]

Seems like most discussion hinges on flotation...but would that foam be helping to stiffen that area as well?

While it may add some stiffness to the bow I doubt if it adds much. The current 22 Angler doesn't have any foam in the bow at all. As you can see from the pictures below the area below the berths is all open and accessible via three hatches (not air tight) under the berth mattresses. There is an opening in the center toward the bow and one on each side. There is quite a lot of storage area there.



Looking down into the storage area under the starboard berth. That hump in the middle is where the bottom coring ends.



The view forward from the starboard storage area, the forward hatch is just visible in the top of the photo.

 

[Anonymous]

After going to the Victoria boat show this year and seeing the new CD22 with no foam or bulkheads and drop in hatches I also did the project. They had done a great job foaming mine (unfortunately). see page 4 in my album.
The storage in here is large compared to other storage areas on boat.

Back to your question I think it is safe to say no plugs no foam.

 

[RobMcClain]

Since our boat was built by Cape Cruiser our experience is probably not completely relevant, but I'll provide it anyway. I know a few CC owners have installed one or more hatches under the v-berth area so I finally decided to give it a try. In advance I noted 3 plugs under the berth where foam had been inserted so I fully expected to encounter it once I had the opening cut. I only wanted to install one hatch, a size 12x24" just in front of the porta potti storage area. Once I had the opening cut and the panel removed I actually began to laugh. Maybe it was stress relief... but I found that I generally had no foam to remove because there was none in that area. It had certainly been sprayed in through the three holes, but it had just expanded up vertically and not outward horizontally so it had not filled in the entire space beneath the v-berth. The space I wanted to access was generally absent foam. So I just smoothed out a few rough edges nearby and then put down some carpet pieces to protect the hull. The space now stores those items I rarely need to access, like electrical cords and a spare prop. I am very glad to have this area! Had I also intended to install small side hatches then I definitely would have encountered foam, but because the CC already has a small storage compartment to each side of the porta potti I had decided not to do this.

Rob

 

[Sunbeam]

Back to your question I think it is safe to say no plugs no foam.

My 2002 has no plugs, but at least some foam, so I don't think that's totally reliable. I removed the stock, ~6" round deck plate from the liner/sole under the potti area, and it was filled with expanding foam. So much so that I couldn't actually unscrew the deck plate, but had to remove the fasteners and pry it out. My guess is that they injected the foam through that hole, and then "quick!" slammed the plate into position and screwed it down. There was foam "foamed up" and stuck to the bottom of it all around it.

I haven't cut into the v-berth yet (but plan to), however another owner of a 2002 didn't find any (or much) additional foam, so I'm hoping there isn't much.

Given the photos I've seen (which basically look like a somewhat haphazard and inconsistent (between boats) application of spray foam, I have a hard time imagining its contributing much to the boat. If a person DID want the under v-berth area to do a better job of either sound suppression or safety, I think a much more effective and purposeful job could be done by the owner (and would be better than counting on who-knows-what-you-have under there to do it).

Sunbeam

 

[Sunbeam]

As you can see from the pictures below the area below the berths is all open and accessible via three hatches (not air tight) under the berth mattresses.

Those hatch rings have piqued my interest. If I'm interpreting the photos correctly, are they simply open rims that hold a separate, flat lid piece that is non-attached like you typically have under the cushions on a sailboat? If so, that's a neat option, as it still gives you the convenience of a drop-in frame that covers up the rough opening, but also nearly the flatness and ease (of not having to open up a hinged lid under a cushion) of a home-made sailboat-style opening.

If that is how it works, is there anything on it showing the brand? I'd like to check them out and could see them being a good option for some situations.

Sunbeam

 

[mgarr682]

Those hatch rings have piqued my interest. If I'm interpreting the photos correctly, are they simply open rims that hold a separate, flat lid piece that is non-attached like you typically have under the cushions on a sailboat? If so, that's a neat option, as it still gives you the convenience of a drop-in frame that covers up the rough opening, but also nearly the flatness and ease (of not having to open up a hinged lid under a cushion) of a home-made sailboat-style opening.

If that is how it works, is there anything on it showing the brand? I'd like to check them out and could see them being a good option for some situations.

Sunbeam

Yes, just aluminum drop in frames with Starboard drop in covers. I don't recall seeing any brand name or logo on them but I'll take a closer look the next time I'm down at the storage lot and get back to you. C-Dory would probably tell you where they get them. I'm sure they just buy them rather than fabricate them on site.

 

[Sunbeam]

Yes, just aluminum drop in frames with Starboard drop in covers. I don't recall seeing any brand name or logo on them but I'll take a closer look the next time I'm down at the storage lot and get back to you.

Thanks, I would appreciate that! If you don't find anything obvious, I may call Triton - but I'll hold that option in reserve for now in case you are able to find something.

Say, did you ever take a closer look at that stanchion leg that had leaked and then looked like it had a crack in it? I'm guessing it was a reflection in the photo, but I'm still curious.

Sunbeam

 

[mgarr682]

Thanks, I would appreciate that! If you don't find anything obvious, I may call Triton - but I'll hold that option in reserve for now in case you are able to find something.

Say, did you ever take a closer look at that stanchion leg that had leaked and then looked like it had a crack in it? I'm guessing it was a reflection in the photo, but I'm still curious.

Sunbeam

No problem, glad to help. And no crack in the stanchion, turns out that was the reflection of my cell phone from taking the picture. I couldn't figure out what it was till I pulled out my phone to take another picture and the "crack" magically reappeared.

 

[thataway]

To answer the question about stiffening--I doubt that it provides any stiffing. Foam, core with "Hat" lamination of glass over the core, is used for stiffening. He hull bottom is solid glass in this area. I am not aware of any C Dory which has punctured the hull in this area. A lot of miles and a lot of C Dories. If you hit a container at 20 knots that might be a difference--as rocks might also be. Even a dead head might be an issue. But it would have to be a very substantial piece of debris to cause any damage in this area.

There probably is some sound deadening from the foam. But again--difficult to know how much.

 

[colbysmith]

Just got done pulling all the 1" plugs in the V berth area and under the toilet. I have a 2007 C-22 Cruiser. There is foam in all the cavities, and it seems pretty thick. I've heard the newer ones don't have any foam and hatches are put in. However, could it be possible that they are pouring more fiberglass or material in the bow to stiffen up in place of the foam? I'm still not convinced that removing the foam wouldn't change the strength in the front end of the boat....but I'm not a boat builder. I did talk to the guy that owns the storage facility where I stored my boat this past winter. He did build boats in the past, and while not familiar with C-dory, suggested that the foam not only adds flotation, but may be there to stiffen the area as well. Has anyone checked with the builder of the earlier boats to see what their thought was on removing any of the foam? I would love to put a storage compartment in that area, not to add more weight, but just to get stuff off the cushions...but I also don't want to weaken the area of the boat that takes the most pounding. Nor open up an area that could take a log hit or submerged rock thru the bow, if the foam can prevent a quick sinking.

 

[colbysmith]

Posted my last reply, before seeing all the recent replies. I guess my question is still, has anyone talked to the original boat builder to see why they put the foam in this space in the first place. As I stated, the foam, at least right under the 1" plug, seemed to be thick...but I know until I've cut the area out for the hatch, I have no way of knowing just how much foam is in there. Has anyone regretted cutting a hatch into that area?

 

[Hunkydory]

Ours was made in 2000 & came from the factory without foam. The original owner informed me he had the foam added for the reason of hoping to dampen the noise level in chop. It would seem to me from the responses of the different owners of this era, indicating their boats were made both with & without foam added or as mine added after the original purchase, so I highly doubt it provides a needed structural stiffening. Now without any concern + or - to stiffening, I plan on removing the foam prior to our next Southeast Alaska cruise, where more storage space is a high priority. I also have no doubt there is a very slight risk in removing the foam causing some loss of buoyancy & protection from quick water intrusion if a log or ice is hit at speed, but as Bob stated there have been many miles made in C-Dorys where these conditions exist without one example of it happening. We have made some worrisome at the time, hard contact with ice at speed & when the boat was pulled from the water could not not even find where the hit occurred. I highly doubt anyone concerned about this remote possibility of increased risk is going to find someone who will guarantee it doesn't exist, but many who are comfortable with taking it for the benefit gained.

Jay

 

[Anonymous]

I (personally) am convinced the foam was not added for strength. It makes sense to fill this void with foam for the builder, if they aren't going to use it for anything else (it is these easiest thing to do)

My 2008 was NMMA certifed. This may explain why the void was completely (rather than partially) filled with foam (ie. maybe measuring and documenting the amount of foam). The C-Dory was only NMMA certified for one, maybe two years.

I did the project in the winter and I have found that the noise level is not increased from when I had the foam.
When you are comfortable (and starving for extra space) you may do the conversion, many brats have done it. To the best of my knowledge, Seasport Boats (previously and now) and the new C-Dories don't have foam.

No regrets, but a lot of work (made much easier with a sawzall and stanley flat prybar.)

 

[Sunbeam]

Colby,

As I've mentioned before, I don't feel the haphazard/inconsistent application of expanding foam was any kind of structural move on the part of the builder. If it was, they they didn't do a very good job of it, because the installation is all over the map (from boat to boat).

I don't know if the newer boats have a heavier layup, but I have not heard of them weighing more, and also, there are better/lighter ways to strengthen.

If I were going to stiffen the bow of a boat (say to prevent oilcanning, etc.), I think I would so something like glass in stringers running fore and aft at around two foot intervals. Basically these would be hollow hat shapes of fiberglass - they could be molded around "halfs" of PVC pipe, shaped foam, whatever. It's the "outline" that would give it the strength, and the inside is just a form. They would make the boat much stronger, shape-wise.

If I were building the boat and wanted to make the bow more "icebreakerish? I'm no marine architect, but I would think extending the core, with thick skins, would make it both quieter and stronger. I just don't see that happening with some expanding foam shot into some holes. On the other hand, it doesn't seem like the C-Dory needs it for the typical use.

I don't know if the newer boats have a heavier layup, but I have not heard of them weighing more, and also, there are better ways to strengthen.

I'm thinking that if you are going to have a niggling doubt, then maybe you will want to keep the foam, but.... just know that production boatbuilders often do things "just because," and the reason is oftentimes not because it makes a superior vessel. (That's not to say our boats are not fantastic, but just a fact of life in production boatbuilding. Sometimes things get done because they are expedient, because that's how they were done in the past, or because a better solution would cost heavily in time/skill.)

My non-naval-architect thoughts,

Sunbeam

 

[colbysmith]

After reading all the comments, particular from those of you that are using your boats in "heavier" water, I'm leaning towards digging out part of the foam anyway, towards the back of the berth area. This would give me the little bit of storage I want; give me the opportunity to see if the foam filled in fully; and still allow me to have foam in the forward half of the bow area. This being the case, I do have all the tools necessary, but would like to hear suggestions on what hatch to use, and rather to put it on top or on the side of the area. And preferably an inexpensive hatch at that. I would be using the storage for some extra clothing, books, food, etc. Stuff we normally just throw on top the cushions. I'm thinking a side mounted hatch would be easier to get at without having to move the cushion each time. Aft of where the porta potty sits. Colby

 

[goldpan]

When we removed the foam we found foam was just below plugs and did not fill void. we did not put in hatches but added wood lip underneath hole and just used cutouts to cover. i found boat a little noisier with foam gone

 

[Skeeter]

Colby,
I took a picture of the foam in my V berth just after I cut the opening. You can see that there was more void than foam. I, wanted some foam up there so I removed the foam in large chunks and re-shaped them to stuff in the bow forward most area.
I also cut a 6" round hatch all the way forward so I could install some expanding foam. The foam from a can is not as dense as the foam the builder uses. It needs moisture to expand. I contacted the manufacture and they said to install a few inches then sprits or spray with a little water. let it set then repeat. The expanding foam just locked in the larger re-positioned chunks.
McMaster Carr sell a box packing foam kit. Again less dense but handy. http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/119/1558/=m8cb89

To finish off the storage areas I cut a piece of dense foam to form a bulkhead. See my album set named V berth storage.
Hope this helps,
Bob
http://www.c-brats.com/modules.php?set_ ... _photo.php

 

[colbysmith]

Thanks again for everyone's replies. I'll have to look at the last links to get some ideas. Just replacing the cutout with board lips sounds like a good inexpensive idea, if I cut on top the area, rather than the side. A hatch might be a little nicer, especially if on the side, but since the cushion covers the top anyway.... Colby

 

[Sea Wolf]

Thanks again for everyone's replies. I'll have to look at the last links to get some ideas. Just replacing the cutout with board lips sounds like a good inexpensive idea, if I cut on top the area, rather than the side. A hatch might be a little nicer, especially if on the side, but since the cushion covers the top anyway.... Colby

Here's a good look and link to just such a project on Ornery-Rover: (Nicely done!)

Link

Joe. :teeth :thup