Paid 4.51 at the gas dock in Norwalk CT yesterday, no extra charge for the ethenol. Of course this is simply a 'supply and demand issue" right? How can we even suggest thateven though the oil companies report BILLIONS in profit every quarter, and the higher the pump price the higher the profit...that they are gouging us? A proposterous acusation and unamerican as hell. God Bless EXXON /MOBILE
Gas Prices
- Thread starter Tug
- Start date
localboy":u98hvver said:
Perhaps this has some relevance to the problem - Number of Cars Worldwide Surpasses 1 Billion; Can the World Handle this Many Wheels? Like it or not oil and oil companies are part of a global economy and the price of oil (and fuel) is going to be driven by global demand. If a U.S. oil company can make more money by sending oil elsewhere it will. BUT that doesn't really happen since we in North America consume more oil per capita than the most other countries or regions in the world. Now that China's and India's economies are rapidly growing, it's not surprising that they want cars and want to live just like we do. Obviously, if EVERYONE in the world used as much oil per person as we do, we'd be in serious problems. So what's the solution long term? $5/gal fuel is IMHO a minor concern relative to the larger, long term issue of increasing fuel use world wide.
I feel your pain, Mike. We paid $4.04 for diesel in AZ on Thursday; Saturday morning at the same station, it was $4.21. Even Gas Buddy is having trouble keeping up with the rapid increases. :disgust
Nice that you can find some non-ethanol fuel for the boat.
We'll be heading back towards Texas in a couple days... and the fuel calculations are saying about $250 more for the trip back than what it cost two months ago to get here. No doubt that is going to cause many folks to reconsider summer travel plans.
Nice that you can find some non-ethanol fuel for the boat.
We'll be heading back towards Texas in a couple days... and the fuel calculations are saying about $250 more for the trip back than what it cost two months ago to get here. No doubt that is going to cause many folks to reconsider summer travel plans.
This would seem to be the start of a new trend of the public's seeming acceptance of hyper inflation. I'm thinking that this will surely slow down the economic recovery in at least some areas. The ethanol fix to reduce our dependance on foreign oil worked well 
but it's effect on corn prices along with these higher fuel costs to transport and produce food is seeing food costs climbing rapidly. I'm not sure but I would suspect this would have a pretty severe impact on the boating industry as motor boats are not exactly fuel efficient. Plus they are built with petroleum based products. Even used boat prices will drop like a stone.Luckily the baby boomers still have enough dough to buy Ranger Tugs and do the loop. Everyone has Iphones and Ipads and can afford an internet connection. What more could we want? Two dollar a gallon gas? With fishing regulations and current fishing bag limits going down bringing home a couple of keeper fish will only cost you about a hundred dollars a piece if your lucky.
D.D.
but it's effect on corn prices along with these higher fuel costs to transport and produce food is seeing food costs climbing rapidly. I'm not sure but I would suspect this would have a pretty severe impact on the boating industry as motor boats are not exactly fuel efficient. Plus they are built with petroleum based products. Even used boat prices will drop like a stone.Luckily the baby boomers still have enough dough to buy Ranger Tugs and do the loop. Everyone has Iphones and Ipads and can afford an internet connection. What more could we want? Two dollar a gallon gas? With fishing regulations and current fishing bag limits going down bringing home a couple of keeper fish will only cost you about a hundred dollars a piece if your lucky. D.D.
Just before current energy secretary Steven Chu was appointed in 2008, he made this incredulous statement (that he now is running away from).
“Somehow we have to figure out how to boost the price of gasoline to the levels in Europe.”
Well, as we know from our ultra painful experiences at the pump, Secretary Chu figured it out all too well, with prices rising from $1.80/gal in 2008 to $4.00 today....heading to the $5 range. So Mr. Chu and the administration should be overjoyed that we are headed toward those European levels.
At the same time, Mr. Chu would like Americans to run to the Chevy dealers and plop down $46,000 for a limited ability Chevy Volt (that taxpayers have already subsidized at an estimated $250,000 per vehicle). Nothing against the Volt and further development of hybrids, but that's a lot of Solyndra type bucks for the average family.
Obviously there are many factors that determine the price of gas, but it's disheartening to know that people that are supposed to be on our side are clueless when it comes to the massive damages to our total economy caused by inflationary gas prices.
It's not too much to expect that we have some affordable fuel for our C-Dorys this summer and in the future.
“Somehow we have to figure out how to boost the price of gasoline to the levels in Europe.”
Well, as we know from our ultra painful experiences at the pump, Secretary Chu figured it out all too well, with prices rising from $1.80/gal in 2008 to $4.00 today....heading to the $5 range. So Mr. Chu and the administration should be overjoyed that we are headed toward those European levels.
At the same time, Mr. Chu would like Americans to run to the Chevy dealers and plop down $46,000 for a limited ability Chevy Volt (that taxpayers have already subsidized at an estimated $250,000 per vehicle). Nothing against the Volt and further development of hybrids, but that's a lot of Solyndra type bucks for the average family.
Obviously there are many factors that determine the price of gas, but it's disheartening to know that people that are supposed to be on our side are clueless when it comes to the massive damages to our total economy caused by inflationary gas prices.
It's not too much to expect that we have some affordable fuel for our C-Dorys this summer and in the future.
1TUBERIDER
New member
Gas prices are holding at 4.50 around here. Its way to much for most around here who live paycheck to paycheck if they are fortunate enough to have a job.
Wife's youngest was here for 4 days. He drives a chev 4x4 with big tires, no job and in trouble. Whats he do to get $? Our 4 years olds birthday was Sunday and all their presents were taken and my wife and I assume to the store for a refund. Needless to say he is not welcome anymore. We have the hard experience of seeing to much of this type of activity. It is on the rampage and I believe that our economy has to take part of the blame. Not all go this way but we are seeing in our community new homeless and lots of activity with the sheriffs log.
On the good side of the report I now have almost 5000 miles on my volt and still I have only purchased 15 gallons of fuel. For those who have a hard time justifying the cost all I can say is I smile passing gas stations. Once the car is paid for the saving will even be better. I don't want to drive my gas vehicles. I just have a better option. My motorcycles sit, my spyder sits and the van is used for surfing but I have not spent $ on gas for it in 3 months as the beach I surf is only a few miles from where I keep it parked. With the volt I can take the long way home and not care.
I plan on using my boat this summer as it looks like a salmon season is in the works. I probably won't spend more than a couple hundred dollars on fuel and for all the trips I hope to get that is cheap therapy. If it were my old bayliner I am sure the cost would be the same, but the hours used would be way down.
I think as the price of gas increases we are going to have more social issues. In the past SS paid folks to stay home because of their drug and alcohol abuse. I was told that this was one of the god sends that reduced crime. Now we have a new wave of jobless folks barely able to make housing costs, retired folks on fixed incomes eating pet food for survival, All have to eat and survive and will do what it takes to survive.
I hate to paint a bleak picture. Can you convince me I am wrong and fuel prices and the poor economy have nothing to do with it? Maybe it does not matter as 12 /21 may make all this obsolete.
Wife's youngest was here for 4 days. He drives a chev 4x4 with big tires, no job and in trouble. Whats he do to get $? Our 4 years olds birthday was Sunday and all their presents were taken and my wife and I assume to the store for a refund. Needless to say he is not welcome anymore. We have the hard experience of seeing to much of this type of activity. It is on the rampage and I believe that our economy has to take part of the blame. Not all go this way but we are seeing in our community new homeless and lots of activity with the sheriffs log.
On the good side of the report I now have almost 5000 miles on my volt and still I have only purchased 15 gallons of fuel. For those who have a hard time justifying the cost all I can say is I smile passing gas stations. Once the car is paid for the saving will even be better. I don't want to drive my gas vehicles. I just have a better option. My motorcycles sit, my spyder sits and the van is used for surfing but I have not spent $ on gas for it in 3 months as the beach I surf is only a few miles from where I keep it parked. With the volt I can take the long way home and not care.
I plan on using my boat this summer as it looks like a salmon season is in the works. I probably won't spend more than a couple hundred dollars on fuel and for all the trips I hope to get that is cheap therapy. If it were my old bayliner I am sure the cost would be the same, but the hours used would be way down.
I think as the price of gas increases we are going to have more social issues. In the past SS paid folks to stay home because of their drug and alcohol abuse. I was told that this was one of the god sends that reduced crime. Now we have a new wave of jobless folks barely able to make housing costs, retired folks on fixed incomes eating pet food for survival, All have to eat and survive and will do what it takes to survive.
I hate to paint a bleak picture. Can you convince me I am wrong and fuel prices and the poor economy have nothing to do with it? Maybe it does not matter as 12 /21 may make all this obsolete.
That last post made me sad. My wife and
I are pretty forturate and thankful for what we have. With the kids having married and on their own and for the most part doing well considering. We are empty nesters with a little bulldog as our only dependent. My wife is retired has a pension and recieving social security. I'm still pulling the plow but am allowed off the reservation for extended furloughs or like having an extended hall pass. At sixty three I won't give up my income for at least a few more years. I was hoping to spend a summer in Alaska when I'm sixty five. Even for us these fuel prices which include 700 plus for fill up a 275 gallon fuel tank with number two heating oil for heat at our home, one hundred plus to top off the boat with gas, the same to fill up the pickup truck our tow vehicle hurts our disposable income if there really is such a thing. This has changed the way we will boat and spend money in the future. Cruising to places and traveling longer distances via boat will be out. Instead we will opt to places that offer a wide variety of short range cruising with weekly stays at marinas and or anchoring options. We will start carrying our kayaks with us. We will stay at marinas or a week at a time as weekly rates after the third day you are almost staying for free. Having the tow rig close by means land based boat fuel saving at least buck a gallon and the ablity to see land based attractions, more provision options, etc. Daily transicent slips are just too expensive and marina gas is just too crazy in price. I guess we will use the fuel management screen a lot more. Not to get political but I think if everyone got a little more pissy about the fuel price gouging the people in Washington might start to get the message that solar power or electric cars are not the answer to the current problems caused by the oil speculators and spin doctors using world events as good reasons for ripping our eyes out at the pump. IMHO
D.D.
I are pretty forturate and thankful for what we have. With the kids having married and on their own and for the most part doing well considering. We are empty nesters with a little bulldog as our only dependent. My wife is retired has a pension and recieving social security. I'm still pulling the plow but am allowed off the reservation for extended furloughs or like having an extended hall pass. At sixty three I won't give up my income for at least a few more years. I was hoping to spend a summer in Alaska when I'm sixty five. Even for us these fuel prices which include 700 plus for fill up a 275 gallon fuel tank with number two heating oil for heat at our home, one hundred plus to top off the boat with gas, the same to fill up the pickup truck our tow vehicle hurts our disposable income if there really is such a thing. This has changed the way we will boat and spend money in the future. Cruising to places and traveling longer distances via boat will be out. Instead we will opt to places that offer a wide variety of short range cruising with weekly stays at marinas and or anchoring options. We will start carrying our kayaks with us. We will stay at marinas or a week at a time as weekly rates after the third day you are almost staying for free. Having the tow rig close by means land based boat fuel saving at least buck a gallon and the ablity to see land based attractions, more provision options, etc. Daily transicent slips are just too expensive and marina gas is just too crazy in price. I guess we will use the fuel management screen a lot more. Not to get political but I think if everyone got a little more pissy about the fuel price gouging the people in Washington might start to get the message that solar power or electric cars are not the answer to the current problems caused by the oil speculators and spin doctors using world events as good reasons for ripping our eyes out at the pump. IMHO
D.D.
potter water
New member
I've put in my decades of 50 and 60 hour weeks, I have no children on welfare and they and family paid for all of their educations, (one Phd, 3 master's degrees), and dang it, now, I want to be able to play with my truck, CD, and RV. Is that asking too much? I don't want to drive a Prius as my sole recreation!
I'll vote at the gas pump and at the polls in November. I don't think for any politician of any stripe to claim there is nothing they can do is acceptable. Nothing gets done unless someone stretches out of their comfort zone and at least tries to make a difference.
I'm convinced that a lot of fuel cost issues are tied to a national attitude. If a real political leadership said YES WE CAN reduce gas prices and made the attempt, there will be a self fulfilling prophecy element that will help prices. A leadership that says, "oh, sorry, nothing we can do," is going to have the worsening affect on fuel.
As a guy with a business degree and background, I'm not naive that it would be easy to work all the issues and get the prices down, but I also know that real leadership could get the job done before I'm too old to operate machinery.
I'll vote at the gas pump and at the polls in November. I don't think for any politician of any stripe to claim there is nothing they can do is acceptable. Nothing gets done unless someone stretches out of their comfort zone and at least tries to make a difference.
I'm convinced that a lot of fuel cost issues are tied to a national attitude. If a real political leadership said YES WE CAN reduce gas prices and made the attempt, there will be a self fulfilling prophecy element that will help prices. A leadership that says, "oh, sorry, nothing we can do," is going to have the worsening affect on fuel.
As a guy with a business degree and background, I'm not naive that it would be easy to work all the issues and get the prices down, but I also know that real leadership could get the job done before I'm too old to operate machinery.
What we really need is a president who can keep the people in China and India from having children and wanting cars. Until we find such a person, we may want to reduce our dependence on oil some. We consume more per capita that most other nations in the world and long term, that's not sustainable. That's why Dr. Chu suggested that we need to gradually increase the cost of fuel over a period of 15 years as one method to decrease our overall fuel use.
As for the Chevy Volt being subsidized at a cost of $250,000 per vehicle, that cost "estimate" was based on taking all government (federal, local and state) subsidies on all components of the car (including a grant to a battery manufacturer) that have been awarded and may ever be awarded in the future (some of the subsidies are on a per car basis, some have specific goals attached to the future award) and dividing all the past and potential future subsidies by the number of Chevy Volts that had been sold as of Dec., 2011. See for example this link. It's an interesting way to calculate the costs.
As for fuel prices, are some arguing that the free market doesn't work and we need more government involvement?
As for the Chevy Volt being subsidized at a cost of $250,000 per vehicle, that cost "estimate" was based on taking all government (federal, local and state) subsidies on all components of the car (including a grant to a battery manufacturer) that have been awarded and may ever be awarded in the future (some of the subsidies are on a per car basis, some have specific goals attached to the future award) and dividing all the past and potential future subsidies by the number of Chevy Volts that had been sold as of Dec., 2011. See for example this link. It's an interesting way to calculate the costs.
As for fuel prices, are some arguing that the free market doesn't work and we need more government involvement?
Does anyone really think that the government is not already involved? I mean taxes at the pump, oil subsidies,enviromental laws, it goes on and on. Was their a sudden baby boom in China in the last two months? Sure less demand the price will go down. Well maybe. Interesting thought, everyone just stays home and does not drive their cars. That will work :lol:
D.D.
D.D.
Captains Cat
New member
rogerbum":mih8by9w said:
And shortly after that, Dr. Chu stated that he didn't own a car. I guess what's good for us gooses isn't good for his gander! :roll:
Why do we have to tax people to get them to do stuff? Supply and Demand, let it work. :wink: I'd like to see whatever plan they have for spending that extra tax money.... Reducing the debt? Doubt that.
Gas about 3.70 here with diesel still under $4.
Charlie
20dauntless
New member
The economics of oil are complex and fascinating. My guess is that Dr. Chu would like to see oil prices increase for at least two reasons. First, many economists believe that using oil produces a variety of externalities. By definition, these externalities are not accounted for in the price you pay at the pump. By forcing oil companies and oil users to internalize their externalities, people will be forced to consume less or pay for the damage that their consumption causes.
The second major advantage of higher oil prices, whether they are caused by increases in demand, decreases in supply, speculative pricing, or government intervention is the effect this has on the incentives for consumers and companies. While alternative forms of energy might not make sense with oil at $20 a barrel, they may make a lot of sense when oil costs $200 a barrel. Basically, higher oil prices make other energy forms more economically viable and can help spur research and development.
This is not to say that increasing oil prices are good for the United States. For better or for worse, we live in a country that is highly dependent on oil and it looks like that will remain true for quite some time. Higher oil prices certainly cause hardship for millions of Americans who have built their lifestyles around the prevalence of cheap gasoline, and this system will take time to change. But oil is priced on a global market, and the government has few resources at its disposal to lower the price of oil. Increasing US oil production will likely have a minor impact on global oil prices (and, by extension, local oil prices), but at least more of the money would be kept in the US economy, assuming that the recipients of the new oil wealth spend their money in the US. I'm slightly involved in the Eagle Ford shale in South Texas, a promising new oil field. Interestingly, the Chinese state oil company invested over 2 billion dollars in Chesapeake Energy for drilling the Eagle Ford, so a lot of the profits will be sent overseas.
Moreover, much of the new US oil production is relatively expensive. Saudi oil, for instance, is really cheap to produce at $4-6 per barrel, while the oil shales in the US are more in the range of $52-113 per barrel (IEA 2008 numbers, the most recent I found in a quick search). New technologies may lower the production costs of oil shale, but it probably will remain quite expensive. Economically, this only works when the price of oil is relatively high.
This isn't an area where the government can dictate prices. Many economists argue that the US government already subsidizes oil significantly, directly and indirectly.
David Brooks was on Meet the Press recently and said that during the Bush price spikes Democrats overwhelmingly blamed the president for the high gas prices. During the Obama price increases, Democrats seem to think it's not the presidents fault. The reality, according to Brooks, is that the president has very little control over oil prices. The point is, people like to blame politicians they don't agree with for problems, even if the politicians didn't cause and can't control the problem.
The second major advantage of higher oil prices, whether they are caused by increases in demand, decreases in supply, speculative pricing, or government intervention is the effect this has on the incentives for consumers and companies. While alternative forms of energy might not make sense with oil at $20 a barrel, they may make a lot of sense when oil costs $200 a barrel. Basically, higher oil prices make other energy forms more economically viable and can help spur research and development.
This is not to say that increasing oil prices are good for the United States. For better or for worse, we live in a country that is highly dependent on oil and it looks like that will remain true for quite some time. Higher oil prices certainly cause hardship for millions of Americans who have built their lifestyles around the prevalence of cheap gasoline, and this system will take time to change. But oil is priced on a global market, and the government has few resources at its disposal to lower the price of oil. Increasing US oil production will likely have a minor impact on global oil prices (and, by extension, local oil prices), but at least more of the money would be kept in the US economy, assuming that the recipients of the new oil wealth spend their money in the US. I'm slightly involved in the Eagle Ford shale in South Texas, a promising new oil field. Interestingly, the Chinese state oil company invested over 2 billion dollars in Chesapeake Energy for drilling the Eagle Ford, so a lot of the profits will be sent overseas.
Moreover, much of the new US oil production is relatively expensive. Saudi oil, for instance, is really cheap to produce at $4-6 per barrel, while the oil shales in the US are more in the range of $52-113 per barrel (IEA 2008 numbers, the most recent I found in a quick search). New technologies may lower the production costs of oil shale, but it probably will remain quite expensive. Economically, this only works when the price of oil is relatively high.
This isn't an area where the government can dictate prices. Many economists argue that the US government already subsidizes oil significantly, directly and indirectly.
David Brooks was on Meet the Press recently and said that during the Bush price spikes Democrats overwhelmingly blamed the president for the high gas prices. During the Obama price increases, Democrats seem to think it's not the presidents fault. The reality, according to Brooks, is that the president has very little control over oil prices. The point is, people like to blame politicians they don't agree with for problems, even if the politicians didn't cause and can't control the problem.
potter water
New member
I can agree with most of what has been said, however, my comment was that real leaders can make a difference in the price of oil. To say one can't do anything is to not show leadership. To try to do something is leadership.
Printing money and decreasing the value of the dollar pushes things in the wrong direction. Rules and regs have swung to the extreme and that pushes things in the wrong direction. Saying we need to become europe pushes things in the wrong direction. Not drilling and exploring pushes things in the wrong direction.
Politicians cannot hide behind former office holders. When the military changes generals in charge of a military command of any kind, there is no honeymoon or grace period. Change of command happens in a few hours. Every single good and bad thing that happens after that is on the new commander, and the officer taking over would be embarrassed out of the service out of the service if he tried to point the finger at any prior commander.
The difference in military management is that they only put highly qualified people into important positions. They don't put people in with no experience as we've seen in recent elections.
Now, back to talk of the wonderful boats we all love.
Printing money and decreasing the value of the dollar pushes things in the wrong direction. Rules and regs have swung to the extreme and that pushes things in the wrong direction. Saying we need to become europe pushes things in the wrong direction. Not drilling and exploring pushes things in the wrong direction.
Politicians cannot hide behind former office holders. When the military changes generals in charge of a military command of any kind, there is no honeymoon or grace period. Change of command happens in a few hours. Every single good and bad thing that happens after that is on the new commander, and the officer taking over would be embarrassed out of the service out of the service if he tried to point the finger at any prior commander.
The difference in military management is that they only put highly qualified people into important positions. They don't put people in with no experience as we've seen in recent elections.
Now, back to talk of the wonderful boats we all love.
Most politicians try to take credit for good things, whether or not they had anything to do with causing them. There is another edge to that sword, of course, and it's a lot sharper.
One would hope that the rational among us would make our own reasoned judgments about cause and effect. Sometimes that's easy. Sometimes that's hard - as is the case with the pricing of a world commodity like fuel. But blaming the Commander in Chief for everything that goes wrong is as foolish and dangerous as giving him or her credit for everything that goes right.
I think Roger's chart and accompanying data on real fuel prices is a good starting point for a rational discussion. And the first factors I would look at in trying to explain the ups and downs of the price line on that chart would not be who was President at each turn in the line. Or which party controlled which house of Congress. Or sunspots.
One would hope that the rational among us would make our own reasoned judgments about cause and effect. Sometimes that's easy. Sometimes that's hard - as is the case with the pricing of a world commodity like fuel. But blaming the Commander in Chief for everything that goes wrong is as foolish and dangerous as giving him or her credit for everything that goes right.
I think Roger's chart and accompanying data on real fuel prices is a good starting point for a rational discussion. And the first factors I would look at in trying to explain the ups and downs of the price line on that chart would not be who was President at each turn in the line. Or which party controlled which house of Congress. Or sunspots.