Generator Question

mrw90

New member
For those of you using any of the small generators. . .

How are you using them?

In charging the batteries, do you need to connect them directly to the battery that you wish to charge? If so, do you need to disconnect every thing else that is wired to the battery before charging. Or, can you connect the generator to the battery charger and charge the battery through that.

In powering your AC Stuff, do you plug directly into the generator, or can you hook into the shore power system somehow?

Would appreciate your feedback. We are on the list for a May 25' Cruiser and working through all the options and what we want to put on it!
 
Hi neighbor,

On my 25 I have a Honda 2000E. When I use it for power I put it in the engine well (assuming there isn't raining) and use a short cord from it into the shore power plug. The 25 has a built in battery charger and so once you are using shore power from what-ever source you are charging the batteries as well as powering the 115 v outlets in the cabin.

Hope that helps.
 
My Yamaha 1000 sits atop the starboard lazzarette and a 6' extension cord plugs into a Marinco 30 amp shore-power inlet. Then to a 30 amp master breaker in a mini- panel mounted above the cabinet doors. Then to a 3 breaker mini-panel to the left. Then one circuit to a 15 amp duplex gfci located behind the helm seat. A second breaker serves a 10 amp/2 bank Xantrex smart charger that is mounted to the rear bulkhead under the counter. One output runs to the house battery inside the port lazzarette. The other to the starting battery inside the starboard lazzarette. Ring terminals are used at the batteries and a seperate cable connects the negative terminals to each other. I leave a 400 watt microwave plugged into one outlet(oven sits inside icebox) and I use the other for a coffee-maker or other small appliance. Typical morning; Start generator and turn on charger, run drip coffee maker, hot coffee into thermos, microwave some oatmeal or make breakfast on the Wallas. By the time I've finished breakfast the batteries have recovered whatever energy the Wallas required overnight and I'm ready for another day. Yamaha_Generator_2.sized.jpg
 
Adeline":6vkffoqu said:
I leave a 400 watt microwave plugged into one outlet(oven sits inside icebox) and I use the other for a coffee-maker or other small appliance.

Your mention of a 400 watt microwave peaked my interest and I went searching the web for a source of one. I didn't have any luck finding anything less then 500 watts. Can you please advise the make and model of yours and a source to purchase if you know of one?

Do you also know the limits of wattage on a microwave that will work with your Yamie Genset?

Thanks
 
I'm going to take the liberty of describing an inexpensive 120 volt shore power and generator set up that is easy to set up and costs a lot less than a $1000 shore power system from the factory, although the CD-25 now comes standard with it (I think).

Rather than cutting up the cabinetry and installing a lot of connection boxes, circuit breakers, outlets, reverse polarity indicators, and indicator lights, you can do it this way:

A GFI (ground field interruptor) type bus bar with a 6 foot pigtail is placed beside the helm on the left over space beside the motor controls. The tail is led aft underneath the galley and out the wiring port on the starboard side of the boat under the gunnel.

This GFI bus bar has the circuit breaker overload protection, the GFI protection, the monitor on/off light and switch, and the multiple outlets all in one $25 or so unit.

A standard grounded (3 wire polarized) extention cord is plugged into the tail of this bus bar from the dock for shore power usage.

(You will also probably have to have a twist and lock 30 amp male plug adapter to actually plug into the dock's shore power outlet, since they usually have this feature.)

In the simplest usage, applicances are simply plugged into the busbar and used in the cabin.

To adapt the set up to generator usage, the generator is placed somewhere convenient on the boat where the exhaust gases will not induce carbon monoxide poisioning in the crew, the generator linked to the bus bar pigtail with a short extension cord, then the generator is started, and now we have 120 volts for whatever needed.

I have a Honda 1000ia which I set on a large cooler in front of the engine well, tie down with a bungee cord, and run with the exhaust facing aft so that the exhaust will go down into the engine well and not into the cockpit.

To be able to charge one's batteries, you'll have to have an on board charger. This can be a hard wired marinized type, but I actually use a 40 amp automotive style charger, mounted up on the inside of the hull next to the helm wiring. I've hard wired it to the large cables coming up from the batteriess to the helm. The big deal about using a marinized unit on a boat is that they are sparkless, but there's no gas fumes up in the v-berth, unlesss the dog's been eating brocoli and beans again.

The charger is plugged into one of the bus bar outlets, and can be run from either 120 volt shore power or the generator.

I have this set up in my CD-22, and it works like a charm! Cost is about $625 for the Honda, $25 for the busbar, $15 for the extension cords, $5 for the adaptor (make it yourself!), and about $95 for the big charger.

Additionally, I have 4, not 2, group 27 batteries, two of which are under the forward dinette seat with their own 1-both-2- off switch. The charger will charge all four at the same time equally w/o problems as long as there all about the same condition. I added the last two batteries when I mounted an Engine Mounted Trolling Motor to the 2005 Yamahma last year as a substitute for a gas kicker. Much less trouble, but also much less thrust-trolling only up to 2 mph. Buat it's absolutely "silent running".

By using the two battery switches, you can use and charge any 1,2,3, or all of the batteries at will. Total amp hours available w/o using the generator or main motor to recharge is about 70% of the total 460 amp-hours at which the battiries are rated, or about 325 amp-hours.

I have evolved this set up over the past 7 years, dramatically increasing the battery storage capacity and adding the generator in the last two.

Some may offer the criticism that the shore power set up is not grounded. This can be simply done by attaching a ground wire from one of the plug outlets and connecting it to the negative side of the boat's 12-v system. Connecting it will stop any chance that ae electrical short on board will result in charging the nearby water and possibly paralyizing a nearby swimmer.

Do you swim around the docks? If not you may not need the ground.

When you connect the 120-v system to the 12-v via the ground, you also allow any stray currents around the dock to come on board through any of your boat's grounded metal fittings in the water, including the engine!

Les Lampman once wrote in a posting here that he didn't really like such a grounded system, as it could lead to more corrosion aboard than w/o a shore power system.

So for me, I'm leaving the system un-grounded, not swimming alongside when the shore power's connected, and saving my new engine and the rest of the boat's electrical system and electronics the corrosion that must by NEMA standards be incorporated into the more than twice as expensive system.

Joe.
 
Joe,

I always like your complete and logical answers. I haven't given much thought to shore power yet since we don't have many places to plug in where I go. A generator though is in the cards and I like the simplicity of your setup.

With 4 batteries if I didn't know better I'd say you were running an electric outboard.
 
Tom-

Well, almost an "electric outboard". The trolling motor on the anti-ventilation plate produces up to 44 lbs of thrust, drawing as much as 38 amps, and with the 325 amp-hours of power available, should push the boat along for eight and a half hours at about 2 mph. (theoretically).

IM001237.sized.jpg

In practice, we either start the Yamaha motor or the Honda generator after about 6 hours max, as the lowered voltage starts to become obvious and the trolling motor becomes weaker and less efficient.

It was great meeeting you at the boat show, and thanks again for the ride to the factory Saturday night!

Joe.
 
Joe,

I bet a Yamaha is virtually silent at 2 mph. I can imagine the strange looks when you go by someone trolling with prop wash coming out from a motor not making any noise.
 
Your mention of a 400 watt microwave peaked my interest and I went searching the web for a source of one. I didn't have any luck finding anything less then 500 watts. Can you please advise the make and model of yours and a source to purchase if you know of one?

Do you also know the limits of wattage on a microwave that will work with your Yamie Genset?
It is an older Sharp Half-Pint identical to this one. It fits perfectly in the ice-box(door removed). It only requires 860 watts which is a good thing because the gennie is rated for 900 continuous output. That's enough for a George Foreman Grill, or a drip coffee maker, or a Belgian Waffle Iron, or a blender(margaritas) while still powering the 10 amp charger. Provided the batteries aren't too deeply discharged.

Link fixed by Da Nag
 
Joe,
Great post on the shore power subject. I do not have a shore power set-up on my boat-yet. I have only used dock power once to run an electric heater and I used an extension cord with a twist-lock adapter. I plugged a short GFI extension cord into the long cord and the heater into the GFI. About your comment that a short would cause danger to someone in the water near your boat-wouldn't a short cause the GFI to trip? I thought my set-up was safe, maybe not?
 
Ken-

Yes, you're right, the GFI should cause the circuit to break off if the hot side of the circuit is grounded to the water or somewhere inside the boat, but only providing the amperage differential is enough to pop the relay.

Without quantitative information on the relay and the possible amount of amperage leakage through the water, it becomes impossible to determine if a small leakage would trip the breaker. We'd also have to know at what voltage and amperage the path through the water causes paralysis to the swimmer.

The danger to the swimmer is usually more in the form of muscle paralysis and drowning at a lesser current and voltage than would be necessary to cause heart stoppage or even electrocution.

My hunch is that any amount of current and voltage that would be dangerous to the swimmer would also trip the GFI, but that's just a guess and not worth trying out in your Speedos!

This is the best answer I can give in all honesty, but I'm no Ph. D in the Physiology of Electrocution in Humans. That's more down Rogerbum's alley!

Are we on-base here, Roger?

Joe.
 
Timely discussion. I have also been thinking about cost effective solutions for occasional AC use by shore power or our Honda generator. I noticed the following site for Lind Equipment was referenced by West Marine www.lindequipment.net/gfcimult.htm. Is this the type of equipment your referring to Joe? Four outlet, 15 amp breaker with GFCI protection. Better hurry before the power goes out!

Tim
 
Joe,

Here is a link to an article I read several months ago that deals in missing grounds and voltage in marinas. In a nutshell the problem is most acute in fresh water marinas due to the conductivity of saltwater. It's good reading for the technically inclined.

Here is another article from the same web site detailing cases of people not surviving encounters with low levels of voltage around marinas. They all appear to be in fresh water.

Links fixed by Da Nag
 
True Story-

I'm sure those would work, but the one I bought was from the TV-Video department in (believe it or not) Wally's World! It looks pretty much just like a standard bus bar you'd have to multiply the wall outlets to hook all your computer power plugs or anything else into, but also includes the GFI circuits and inlets and outlets for your TV / computer coaxial cable to ground them to the 120-v ground wire to in turn protect you and your stuff against a lightening strike, as I remember it. About 17 easy one$ as I recall. RCA brand- made in ???

Tom-

Still reading! Thanks.
 
The first article Tom refers to is very clear it it's initial summary and so well done that I'm going to post an exerpt here:

Research has been ongoing to determine why people are drowning due to electric shock in freshwater marinas across the nation. In addition to those occurrences where people are known to have been shocked, more drownings may indeed be caused by electric shock than are reported because autopsy results are not able to pinpoint this as the cause.

The freshwater environment is of most concern since salt water's high conductivity allows the majority of ground fault currents to pass harmlessly to the earth ground (this has been previously quantified through a significant amount of research in saltwater). In freshwater, where electrical resistance is high, a person's body represents the low resistance path that the current is seeking to return to ground. Hence, the occurrence of deadly electric shocks to immersed people in freshwater marinas, and none being reported in saltwater.

This research will substantiate the need to monitor the electrical condition of a marina using available marina monitoring tools to reduce the chances for personal injury and death from electrical shock induced by electrical faults in boats and marina electrical systems.

An opportunity recently became available to conduct electrical testing in a large, well-maintained marina facility located on a freshwater reservoir in the southeastern United States. The summary of this freshwater research is presented below. It will demonstrate the following:

A low-level ground fault (less than shore breaker trip setting) can be induced on a boat connected to shore power.

If the dock ground system is in good condition, the induced ground fault current will be safely carried off the boat to the earth ground ashore through the dock ground wiring system, therefore preventing lethal potentials from appearing on underwater gear.

If the ground system is disabled (to simulate a faulty ground system) while the ground fault is being induced, a portion of the fault current will still find it's way to the earth ground directly through the boat's grounded underwater equipment (e.g. stern drives, propellers, shafts, struts, rudders, etc.) and the water.

The fault current traveling through the water sets up an electrical field that is potentially lethal to any person encountering it.

And here's the summary from the second:

Low level ground fault leakage in the marina AC shore power system can cause lethal potentials to appear on any metal surface – either on a boat or on the dock. In fresh water the electric field surrounding this surface can paralyze a swimmer. There is no warning that this condition exists, and it has resulted in numerous drownings. Further, there is no post-mortem evidence that electric shock was the cause. Therefore, the fatalities listed below are only the known electric shock caused drownings, which were investigated because of circumstantial evidence, i.e., multiple deaths, eye witnesses, considerable distress, cries for help, shock sensation reported by rescuers, etc.

We do not know the exact wiring errors or ground faults that created some of the incidents listed below, but it can be assumed that an energized AC lead (L 1 ) came in contact with a bonded (grounded) object, and coincidently, this object was not connected to the shore bonding (grounding) system. This caused a voltage to appear on bonded under-water metal gear, setting up a lethal field around the boat. This was true in every case that was investigated.

_____________________________________________________________

And that is why the NEMA wring standards require that the ground of the AC shore power be grounded to the negative side of the boat's 12-v electrical system, which will

1. Eliminate the current through the water as the stray/shorted current goes back out ground wire.
2. Hopefully also open either the GFI and / or amperage limiting pretection devices in the boat.

I think I'll go ahead and connect the two together by inserting a 3-prong to two prong electrical wall outlet adapter (little grey guy) into the bus bar and connecting the third wire (green, ground) from it to the boat's negative side.


*************AND THAT'S THE SHOCKING TRUTH!!!*************

Joe.
 
WOW....so ...other than throwing in someone else, how can we test our waters at our marinas for this...."loose current field?"

And, do we need to stick some type of instument in the water around all the boats or if not, how far appart do we check the areas?

Have any of you seen those fish shaped sacrafice chunks?... where can they be purchased? My thoughts are if there is one or two of those floating in and around my lower units...then the units sacrifical parts should last longer too.
 
SEAWOLF,
THANK YOU FOR POSTING THE INFORMATION ON THE POTENTIAL DANGERS OF IMPROPPERLY GROUNDED SHORE POWER IN FRESH WATER. I HAS CAUSED ME TO DO SOME SERIOUS THINKING. I NORMALLY CARRY A GOOD QUALITY VOLT OHM METER ON THE STIMPY AND I THINK THAT I AM GOING TO RIG UP A TESTING PROBE WITH A NON CONDUCTIVE HANDLE THAT I CAN ATTACH TO THIS METER JUST SO THAT I CAN "TEST THE WATER AT MARINAS THAT WE TIE UP AT.
REGARDS, DOUG CRUICKSHANK AKA ""THE STIMPSTER"
 
Patrick (Byrdman) and Doug (Stimpster)-

Well, I don't exactly recommend throwing in your favorite, loyal bird dog to test the waters!

Doug's right on target with the test probe made up of the voltmeter with an insulated metal probe on one end and a clip on the other to check for currents around the boat. Be sure the wires are insulated (except on the probe) for safety.

Attach the clip to the ground on the 120 v Shore Power outlet for starters. Be sure to try all around the dock / berth area around your boat to be able to get into any current path that might be there.

Don't forget to set the voltmeter on AC and the correct range.

I'd also test the Shore Power ground against the boat's negative 12 v side, which should be grounded. This will test whether it is or not. Should read 0 volts if the grounding is done right.

Then test the hot side of the 120 v system (usually the black wire) against the common wire (white / return circuit) in the boat. Should register the same full voltage available at the Shore Power outlet. Less and you have a weak connection somewhere.

Another test would be to test the GFI circuit. Set the voltmeter on amps, momentarily contacting it between the hot and the ground wires. Should pop the GFI circuit, but probably not the amperage overload circuit, as the current will be short lived. You may well blow out the protector fuse in the voltmeter, but fixing that is a lot easier than doing this procedure with a solid wire that could carry many amps and melt in and burn your hands!

Finally, you could place the meter between the insulated probe in the water and the grounded 12 volt (negative) side. Voltage here would indicate a hot wire leak somewhere between another nearby object and your grounded boat. Corrosion will be the result of any current between your grounded boat and the water around it.

Probably are other thnings to check and ways to do it, but this is just a logically derived list of places to start.

Be sure the insulated probe isn't just a wet broom stick. A cheap section of PVC sprinkler pipe would work nicely. No barefoot or wet shoes stuff, either!

None of these tests are recommended for those w/o a pretty good understanding of electricity. If you don't really understand this stuff, you won't be able to interpert the results, either.

Get a qualified electrician if you suspect a problem.

The foregoing is offered for discussion and to the best of my knowledge, but I accept no personal responsibility for any use you make of it.

Have fun, it's an eletryfying subject!

Joe.
 
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