Help on 22 Cruiser Motor Selection

W

Work Release

New member
Howdy C-Brats,
Well I went and did it, bought a new 22 cruiser at the Seattle Boat Show. This will be my 4th boat, graduating all the way up from a 12' aluminium. I have always liked the looks of the C-Dory line, and am very excited about this new boat. I'm in sort of a dilemma thou, can't decide wether to go with the twin Honda 40's or 50's. My last boat was a 2002 Bayliner Trophy and had a 125 hp Merc. which was underpowered. When she had a good size load, Heck, I had to get my fishing buddy to stand up on the bow to get her up on a plane, even with trim tabs. The twin 50's cost a additional $1200, but if I go with the 40's and then find out that I'm going to be traveling slow with a load, it will little late for a upgrade. I thought perhaps some of you owners may have some input, it sure would be appreciated and put my mind at ease.
P.S. This is a great web site, lots of good info being passed around.
Thanks, Jim
 
Jim --

Every time I've looked at the 22 Cruiser I keep visualizing a Honda 100 on the transom. Yeah, they don't make one, so make that a Honda 90.

One engine to maintain. You can put a kicker to one side for trolling or "get home" if you think it necessary. I've flown single engine aircraft for many, many years and have yet to lose an engine -- nor a boat engine either.

I consider the swim step a mandatory safety device as I can self rescue if I fall in the water. This won't fit with twins back there.

As my signature line shows I'm running a single engine 16 Cruiser, but I'm looking forward to a larger C-Dory in a couple of years.

Single engine has none of the sync issues of twins. Twins look "offshore sexy" though, I considered a pair Honda 30s.

The C-Dory hull shape needs a lot less power than a Vee hull. But you're not going to get 40 mph out of a C-Dory and the normal engines.

-- Chuck
 
Jim,

Depends on how you will use the boat. Water ski? Twin 40s are great for about 90 percent of what folks normally do with their 22s. I have 2 22s right now -- one with a 75 Honda, and one with a 70 Suzuki. Both use kickers for trolling. Both have adequate power for the 22... the 22 just isn't a speed boat. Greg even has a 110 Yama (yuk), but he carries a ton of stuff (including huge fish). I don't think you could tell the difference between the 40s and 50s in general usage. I'd sure talk to Les at EQ, who does this all the time.

Dusty
 
Jim,

Good luck with your decision(s). Search back through the messages and you will find a Lot of discussion on the subject of single-versus-twins, and 40-versus-50's. Les' is the undisputed Master on the subject, and seems to lean toward the 40's in a twin engine setup. Lord knows, he's done a bunch of them - and they're giving very good service. As for longevity - look at Bill & El. I think their secret goal is to have 10K hours on their (twin 40) engines before repowering! GO Fiero's. (I want to be a Fiero if I ever grow up!)

Just to add another element to your decision - have you considered going with a Johnson 4-stroke? Yea, I know Honda is the standard-of-measure in 4-strokes, but look at the Johnson (a Suzuki in white) 4-stroke lineup. And Les is now a dealer for both Honda and Johnson! I'm not saying Anything against the Honda line (I have a BF90 & BF2 on a second boat, and love it...) but the Johnson (Suzuki) offers distinct features that Honda just hasn't gotten around to (yet). (EFI, beefier charging system, timing chain, and probably quieter)

In any case - enjoy the decision process. It'll make you a little crazy, but in the end you'll have an outfit that fits YOU, and that's what counts!

Good Luck!
Casey
(Naknek's in AZ storage until late April when she gets a couple new EQ toys on her way North to AK!)
 
I have a single Evinrude 90 Fitch two stroke. I do carry a fairly heavy load--three dogs and a couple of ice chests, plus.

There is virtually no difference between the 40 and 50 hp Hondas--the 50's develope the HP at the higher RPM--I doubt if you will see much difference in cruising.

I agree about the usefulness of the swim step. We have a 3.5 outboard which we have on a bracket for a "kicker"--and dinghy motor. We also have a 15 hp Honda we will take if we go to Alaska--in the rare instance of a main engine break down.

I have owned boats for over 50 years and the only outboards I have had go bad are ones which have been swimming! (get them running again, but eventually that salt water bath takes a toll).

I would opt for a 90 hp single and if you want a smaller kicker for the reasons given above. As I understand it, the 50/50 will not plane the boat, so if you have a breakdown you will have to come home at displacement speeds anyway. The twins don't give much difference in manueverablility.
 
thataway,
I have never had twin engines, but I always thought one of the big pluses was the greatly increased maneuverability. I would be interested in others opinion on this. I have been in close docking areas with a stiff wind that make precise movements with a single very difficult. The ability to reverse one engine and put the other in forward I would think could be a great advantage?
 
Twin propellers with counter rotating propellers give greatly enhanced maneuverability. Twins turning the same direction don't.

Outboards steer by redirecting thrust by pivoting the motor, not the rudders. On something like a Tom Cat, where the engines are far apart you may get some maneuverability from twins, but same-direction propellers so close together aren't going to give much, if any benefit.

Twins require two of everything. Locking the throttles together helps, but you still have to constantly diddle with the rpm sync.

-- Chuck
 
They key to maneuvering a boat like the C-Dory is practice. I too was a bit over cautious when first coming into launching docks, and especially into a mooring slip with all the other boats and onlookers around. Six years later, after a few goofs, and mostly just imperfect approaches that gradually got much better, I can back the boat out of the slip in the relatively crowded marina, do a 180 degree spin, and back it back into the slips to reverse the direction to work on the back of the boat from the central walkway. Practice and experience gives you the confidence to get over the apprehension of maneuvering in tight spaces. I have a friend who, after 20 years in the Coast Guard, can do this with 65 ft houseboats stacked up side to side and tied nosed in to a dock, without intervening fingers, and in the wind, to boot. Practice, practice. Twins aren't only less of an advantage on a boat the size of a C-Dory, they're just not necessary once you've got the experience. Joe.
 
Agree with the above posts--the C dory sets the motors only a couple of feet apart and the props are not counter rotating. I have owned over 20 boats up to 62 feet and only one with twin screws--a 42 foot Symbol with twin cats. The twins were especially nice when backing into a slip. However there were situations where I would have liked to have had a bow thruster also (owned only one boat with that). I can handle the C Dory and another 28 foot I/O boat I own currently as well as the twin screw boat--again it takes practice. The C Dory is so light. Another tight maneuver hint is if you have a kicker with 360 degree rotation, you can use it to get in or out of close spaces--this puts you in the cockpit and allows direct sideways movement of the stern--let the wind blow the bow where it may....
 
Work Release and CAVU,
The subject of twins vs. single motors on the 22' has been extensively discussed in past sites and "threads". Unfortunately, I am unable to locate those threads to resurrect them for viewing.

Although, I have never owned a 22' with twins, (am currently, however having them installed on my new 22'), I did have the opportunity to spend a day operating a 22' with twins. This is what I found to be true. We entered a relatively narrow cove, reversed one engine and had the other engine running forward at the same RPMs and easily spun around 180 degrees in the vessel's own length (never touched the steering wheel) and motored on out ot the cove. (Obviously, this was in spite of the lack of counter rotating props). (Counter rotating props, I believe are not available in outboard motors less than 100 HP).
As others have mentioned, regardless of single vs. twins, practice is the key to successful boat handling.

Hopefully, Bill (Da Nag) or Mike (Tyboo) can locate some of those previous "threads" that I mentioned.

Additionally, perhaps some of the "twin" owners can comment on the maneuverability subject as I'm certain they have more experience in the operation than me.
 
Here's a hint for maneuvering in tight spaces.

When in forward gear, set at the helm normally. When in reverse, stand up next to the helm seat in the aisle between the seat and the dinette, facing backwards and steering with your left hand. This way you can see where you're going without looking over your shoulder, and see which way the motor is angled and pulling you. Your visual field and orientation is much better, enabling you to maneuver much more exactly.

Just like with bass boats and trolling motors (or any boat) at low speed, it's easier to pull the boat where you want to go than to push it from behind (or the other end). You can, therefore, actually back the boat more precisely than drive it in forward in tight spaces. The need to see the motor is, unfortunately, an argument against mounting the ice chest in the motor well. A good helm arrangement for a boat used a lot in tight places, like a tug, would be to have the helm on a post out in the middle of the pilot station so you could stand on either side, with the seat to the rear, of course, and single lever shift/throttles on the post. Joe.
 
First-off, congrats! but why Honda :shock: I know the C-D dealers really push them, but here's something you should look into:

Suzuki, Evenrude, Merc and Yamaha offer a simpler more advanced, 4-stroke engine---especially the Yamaha :love (no reduction gears, and a belt-driven cam) Also, you might look into an old discussion we have on this site somewhere. I think it's called "what to do with my old engine" (something like that) I'd link you, but I got to run for now. Good-luck! as we have all said in the past "one cant make a bad decision" when it comes to the 4-strokes!
 
No question that twins, one foreward and other other reverse will spin the boat--and perhaps faster without a keel as the C Dory. However almost any boat, including sailboats with proper use of rudder and prop can be turned in their own length. The clockwise rotation of a "normal" outboard prop will walk the stern of the boat to port, thus it is easier to turn the boat to starboard--or to dock to the port side of the boat. The disadvantages of two similar rotation props is well explained at: http://www.boatfix.com/how/props.html. and is worth a read. My other boat has a duo prop--on the same leg one port and one stb. rotation--this is harder to turn in its own length than the C Dory, because it does not have the prop walk in reverse.

With the twins it would be easier to spin the boat to starboard, and more difficult to port. I don't think he fact you don't have to spin the wheel is necessarilly that much of an advantage to warrant twin outboards. I understand the arguements for the twin 40's I was looking at a local Honda ad--40's $4220, 50's $5485 (the 50's should not cost much more than the 40's) and the 90 is $7995. My choice of a single was based on the available space on the transom--swim step, a small motor for the dink/slow trolling and room to allow my dogs to go over the transom ashore via the Petstep or into the dinghy.
 
I agree with Dave's comments 100%! Not sure if this can be done as easily with a single, but for practice we float a fender off one side of the boat and using the twins we can spin the boat around so that the fender is floating on the exact spot on the opposite side of the hull, the twins really help when we are trying to get into the Des Moines hoist while 30 other boats are trying to do the same or when we are faced with a strong wind while trying to dock or depart.

Once we are moving at more than a fast idle, I don't think the twins feel any different than a single.

Prior to purchasing Chivita all of my experience had been on single engine boats and the only problem I've ever had with a single was shearing pins on an old Evinrude. We bought twin Hondas on our 22' as we plan on traveling the inside passage to Alaska several times and Les recommended them for that type of use.

Besides throughly enjoying how easy it is to spin our boat around in the same spot I can add one other experience that made me happy we bought the twins. Coming through the Tacoma Narrows one time, we "found" someone's discarded crab pot complete with line and water logged float. It was moving along below the surface with the rapid flowing tide. The line completely stalled one motor and it took me a good five minutes to get untangled once we had found a safe spot to stop. Running on the other motor, we had absolutely no problems finding that safe spot.

I'm pretty sure if we had a decent kicker we could of got it lowered and started in time to keep us off a piling/boat or shoreline, and had I been with a fellow C-Brat it probably would have been a great adventure, but I was with my wife and family and they don't always share my opinion of what makes for a great adventure.

I'm glad we bought ours with twins, but then we tow Chivita with one of those darn Dodge Cummins Diesels which like the twins is probably a bit of overkill!
 
Yes, I was going to say what Dave says here. Keep motors straight ahead. One in forward and one in reverse. Just a little gas, same rmps on each - see what happens. The boat turns around in a circle on the spot, or very nearly. I am not cool or calm enough to make this capability useful while docking with the wind howling, or even in a crowded marina on a calm day, but what the hey, it is a fact. Not that this would necessarily be the deciding factor, but you can't do this with a single.

DaveS":1u1lmtl8 said:
This is what I found to be true. We entered a relatively narrow cove, reversed one engine and had the other engine running forward at the same RPMs and easily spun around 180 degrees in the vessel's own length (never touched the steering wheel) and motored on out ot the cove. (Obviously, this was in spite of the lack of counter rotating props). (Counter rotating props, I believe are not available in outboard motors less than 100 HP).
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the input guys,
Well there seems to be pros and cons about twins on the 22 cruiser. I have been in two situations up B.C. way with other boats when I wished I had more than just a kicker to get myself back to the dock. Both times a good wind and strong tide kept myself at a stand still, (using a 9.9 kicker). Luckly, some nice guys came along and gave me a tow, pretty embarrassing thou. I do a lot more fishing than cruising, but having twins gives me more security when out on the highseas by myself. I have had swim steps on my last two boats and really like them for boarding and sticking a extra cooler on, but am willing to give it up and have a stowaway type step. Has anyone out there have or knows someone that has the twin 50's?, and what they think of this setup. In my mind, I can't help but think the 20 extra Horsepower over the twin 40's wouldn't come in handy when loaded up on a long trip.
Thanks again for the input, Jim
 
Jim,

You might be able to get El or Bill to contribute on this one. They have thousands of miles on a pair of 40s, always heavy. As I recall, the 40 actually has more torque in the normal operating range, and the 50 adds its HP from about 4500 on up. I've run both engines quite a bit as singles -- difficult to tell which one you are running. The same is true with the 75 and 90. I fish often with both the 75 and 90 -- IMO the 75 is better on the 22CD. Your point about coming back on a 9.9 is a good one, and the 40 would be much better for that. I'm a bit surprised that the 9.9 couldn't get you to hull speed though. I've come from Uclulet BC to Deception Pass on a single 9.9 (26+ hours) when the outdrive quit. 26 ft. heavy boat. Long trip, and even a 15 would have been a help.

Dusty
 
Skipper --

No one has yet documented the torque of eigher the 40 or 50 at any rpm other than the peak listed by Honda in their ads. Torque is normally a very flat curve on a graph. Horse power is a calculation based on torque and rpm -- more rpm you're gonna get more horsepower. Torque is what counts. Horse power is math.

All we know is the 40's peak torque is 43.8 ft lb at 3500 rpm and the 50 is 47.1 at 4500. No one will tell us what the 50's torque is at 3500 rpm. Seems a simple question. With the typical flat torque curve I'd expect it to be at least 43.8, but who really knows?

Not even Honda is willing to give this information.

-- Chuck
 
Sure interesting, Chuck -

I'm surprised they don't make that stuff available. I recently studied the curves on the new 135/150. A curve to kill for, and the two engines are almost exactly the same until about 4,500 -- and the HP curve is pure flat up to about 160 HP at 6,000. That's going to be a sweet, sweet engine. Pretty hi-tech for an old guy, but I ran it on a 21 Arima and it's a big jump to the future.

Dusty
 
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