No house electronics--weird problem

B

bmacpiper

New member
Hi all,
I've been chasing some electrical issues down, after my recent toasting of my starter batteries. I have a strange issue, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me so far.

I'm in a 2007 22' cruiser, that was rigged by Les at EQ Marine, i.e. a really nice rigging job. It runs 2 starter batteries, and a separate giant house battery (2100). All are odysseys and I have a xantrex 20 triple charger.

What I've discovered is that when the battery switches are on, I have no house electronics. From the House switch, there is a large breaker/fuse inline to the front of the boat, which I replaced last year when house electronics were dead. It has 13.2V on the far side from the battery, i.e. it's good. There is another large wire (2 ga?) that goes to another breaker up front, and then goes on to the windlass controls, i.e. the windlass is direct connected to the house switch with its own circuit and breaker. I have 13.2 at the windlass breaker, and 13.2 at the windlass switch, but the windlass doesn't work.

If I try to turn on the chart plotter, VHF radio, etc. I can hear the tiniest click, i.e. they're trying to turn on, but can't.

The really strange part is this--if I start the motors and run them for a few minutes, all house electronics will work normally.

The two starting batteries have VSRs on them, but I had always thought these didn't affect the house battery. But given my last paragraph, it sure seems like the VSRs may be blocking voltage from the house battery to house electronics, which makes no sense to me. And, given the presence of voltage at the windlass control switch, I'm at a total loss as to why it won't work unless the motors are running. This does shed light on why my pot puller and down riggers ran slow last year--I think they must have been running off the starter batteries and also explains why the house never seemed to lose any voltage! I thought I had the strongest house battery in history!!! :)

I realize I have a lot of wire tracing in my near future, but thought I'd throw this out there in case it's one of those basic problems where I'm overlooking something really obvious, and someone might say, "If you just attach the framas to the connectakazoink, the rotary girder will eliminate side fumbling and fix the marzelvane." :) (A buried VSR I don't know about? Etc.?)

OK, I'll keep you posted as this progresses. Thanks for any ideas!
Ben
 
The first thing to check is your battery terminals. Make sure they make good contact with the major cables which supply power to your vvarious circuits. You will have to disassemble each one, clean the terminals and the lugs, and reattach. The voltmeter readings you report represent continuity, but the voltmeter requires so little CURRENT to show a reading, everything looks fine. But when a heavy current draw item such as your winch, etc., is energized, the high resistance at the battery terminal restricts the current flow so much that the winch (or whatever) cannot function.

BEFORE you clean the battery terminals, do this test: Have an assistant monitor the voltage across the winch circuit before it is switched on, and watch what happens when turned on. You likely will see the voltage drop to a very low value. Do this first to verify that under load, the winch circuit is not operating correctly.

If the winch circuit voltage remaibs high, but the winch does not crank, then the problem is likely at the lugs on the winch instead.
.
 
Agree with Dave. Do a load test. load tester

Buy on of these load testers so you can do it with out the battery hooked up or another person. Good cheap useful and under used tool

You have also told us a lot about the power side but I find most problems are on the negative side. Are the connections all clean and tight?
 
Thank you Dave and Thomas!

A few responses.
--Batteries are AGM so no fluid level to check. Starter batts are brand new; house is charging and holding charge just fine.
--All lugs and cables are clean and installed with dielectric grease. I don't think this is the issue, but I do question the cables on the starter batts since they may have taken some salt water and may have corrosion inside the insulation. Even with a full charge, one batt will crank slowly, the other won't crank unless I use the emergency parallel switch to up current to the other starter motor. This makes me think I have a lot of resistance in the cables since the batteries are fine and connections are fine.

--Grounds are mostly on a common block, and I've cleaned them each year and used dielectric also; but, I'll do it again to be sure.

--The windlass lugs are protected and spotless; I'll try the load test at the switch and see what happens.

--I've found a number of "interesting" things so far in my tracing. Not the least of which is that the ground wire for the port fuel filler was disconnected (nut vibrated off I think). And the 30A fuse for port downrigger was melted but still working, probably due to corrosion--it's not a marine type and was able to ingest salt/humidity on the blades. Good to be having a thorough look through all of this stuff!

--As to why things work when the motors are running--I started thinking about the fact that the three batteries all share a common ground, i.e. all three are attached to the ground block mentioned above. Would this make it possible for the starter batteries and/or motor alternators to backfeed the house electronics, in case of emergency? I.e. could this be a designed feature instead of a defect? Both starter switches/batteries have VSRs on them, and I did notice the past couple of years that they opened more than I thought they should have--but it never clicked with me that something was wrong. Now I'm thinking that they were opening because the starter batts were powering down riggers, chart plotter, etc. and so they got worked pretty hard and the VSRs were called on often to protect them.

--If this last thought is in fact true, I'm still at a loss as to why the house battery, which is definitely fully charged, isn't powering even the most low-draw items (like VHF radio, cabin lights, etc.). I hear your point about the windlass and resistance, but it won't even light a teeny cabin light. It seems to me that there simply has to be a broken or loose wire somewhere; fuses/breakers are intact so far. I think I need one of those long-distance continuity testers, since my multimeter leads are only a few feet long. Maybe there's one that also has the load tester built in.

OK, back to tracing and testing and labeling. Thanks again, and keep the ideas coming!!!

best
bmc
 
bmacpiper":3a2ofn7r said:
Excerpts:

This makes me think I have a lot of resistance in the cables since the batteries are fine and connections are fine.

I think I need one of those long-distance continuity testers, since my multimeter leads are only a few feet long. Maybe there's one that also has the load tester built in.


best
bmc
Click to expand...

Ben-

Maybe you can use a set of jumper cables to extend the short range of your multi-meter leads to test the continuity / resistance of the cables (with the batteries switched off as necessary to protect against short circuits as needed).

Hook them up and then after testing the continuity and resistance at a static mode, wiggle the cables and see if the continuity / resistance varies, indicated big time corrosion down inside an insulated cable due to salt intrusion and corrosion.

Good Luck and stay connected! :lol:

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
I keep a 12 piece of #12 wire with alligator clips on both ends to use in testing to rule out one wire(such as ground) in testing.

I think you may be onto something with the VSR. The VSR should be giving you current as soon as the starting batteries get to about 13 volts--and this this can be fairly quickly--in a second or so.

Have you been testing the voltage at the console? This is where it counts--and I suspect that some switch is either off, or mis-wired so so you are not getting current until the VSR kicks on. The VSR is then connection the start and house batteries--as well as the electronics etc. The place to be looking is back near the batteries--especially around the breaker/fuse. It is possible that there is a bad breaker--and that someway it is being bypassed by the vSR--

Windlass--testing voltage at the lugs of the motor, or the relay? There should not be any power to the windlass until the relay kicks in. Possible that there is an interruption near the relay or switch?

Definitely load test all of the batteries before you go any further (bleed any more).

It is so much easier if one is there, since often there is a small place which is constantly overlooked, and then becomes obvious when pointed out. Most of the C Dory problems I find are from ground terminals, and or corroded connections--but you seem to have ruled those out.

I suspect that the 2100 battery is a group 31 (listed as a 2150 on current battery site). That is a good house battery.

A couple of photos of the VSR/fuse area--might give us some clues. Good thing about electrical problems--they are always solvable!
 
thataway":rmqikh0a said:
I keep a 12 piece of #12 wire with alligator clips on both ends to use in testing to rule out one wire(such as ground) in testing.
Click to expand...

(Slaps self in forehead)

thataway":rmqikh0a said:
I think you may be onto something with the VSR. The VSR should be giving you current as soon as the starting batteries get to about 13 volts--and this this can be fairly quickly--in a second or so.
Click to expand...

I lifted the entire battery switch assembly for the first time ever, and it was enlightening. And yes, it is set up so that the motors can run house if the VSRs are closed. Photos and description to follow below.

thataway":rmqikh0a said:
Have you been testing the voltage at the console? This is where it counts--and I suspect that some switch is either off, or mis-wired so so you are not getting current until the VSR kicks on. The VSR is then connection the start and house batteries--as well as the electronics etc. The place to be looking is back near the batteries--especially around the breaker/fuse. It is possible that there is a bad breaker--and that someway it is being bypassed by the vSR--
Click to expand...

I've tested several things in the cabin, and lots in the battery/motor area. I did just replace the main 50A breaker at the battery switches, which delivers power via a thick red wire to the main positive block up front (i.e. the one from C-Dory that is next to all the factory switches for lights, etc.) so I think that one is still good.

thataway":rmqikh0a said:
Windlass--testing voltage at the lugs of the motor, or the relay? There should not be any power to the windlass until the relay kicks in. Possible that there is an interruption near the relay or switch?
Click to expand...

On this boat the windlass is direct-wired to the house switch positive side.

thataway":rmqikh0a said:
Definitely load test all of the batteries before you go any further (bleed any more).
Click to expand...

I don't have a load tester just yet, but will do this when I get one. The starter batteries are a week old, so doubtful they're bad. The house is 4 years old, and holds 12.75 or so after getting to full charge. Can it be bad and yet still hold voltage? Maybe I'll take it with me to the auto parts store and have them load test.

thataway":rmqikh0a said:
It is so much easier if one is there, since often there is a small place which is constantly overlooked, and then becomes obvious when pointed out. Most of the C Dory problems I find are from ground terminals, and or corroded connections--but you seem to have ruled those out.
Click to expand...

Truer words have not been spoken, and I will clean all the grounds again just to be sure. They are certainly the problem in most everything electrical I've ever worked on, from old BMW motos to espresso machines!

thataway":rmqikh0a said:
I suspect that the 2100 battery is a group 31 (listed as a 2150 on current battery site). That is a good house battery.
Click to expand...

You're correct--I incorrectly said 2100. It's the group 31 Odyssey.

thataway":rmqikh0a said:
A couple of photos of the VSR/fuse area--might give us some clues. Good thing about electrical problems--they are always solvable!
Click to expand...

Will try to do this below, with descriptions.

First photo is just an overview of the switch configuration (top of photo is aft):
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipP ... FtcdHJ9bHt

Second photo is the switches flipped upside down, from front to back:
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipM ... hCWC5s_Mzq

Terminals A,B and C,D are the two starting batteries. E,F are the house battery, and of course the green bottoms are the VSRs. In between B&C is the emergency parallel. Positive leads are B, C & F. Motor sides are A&D.

On F: The top large red wire goes to the windlass breaker and controls up in the cabin. Bottom large red is main cable from the house battery. The yellow one goes to a downrigger. Brown goes to bilge pump.

On E: the large red goes to the main house breaker, then to the cabin positive block. Yellow goes to the control box for the simrad autopilot.

And if I'm seeing it correctly, the VSRs are tied to the cabin side of the house switch, which would in fact let the motors run the house electronics as mentioned. In that case--wouldn't this indicate that the problem lies between the house battery and the house switch??? In other words, if corrosion between the house switch and the windlass was the problem, it would seem to me that the motors and/or smaller starting batteries would not be able to overcome that same corrosion and make everything work normally.

Man, I'm really starting to suspect my house battery...so I'll wait to hear from you guys on whether a battery can be dead yet hold voltage, i.e. poor load test with good voltage. That would certainly save some pain. In the meantime, everything is getting cleaned and greased and that's always a good thing. I did notice some shiny wire peeking out in the house main cable when I flipped the switches over--which makes me think the cable may not be corroded.

OK, I'll stop for now.
Thanks.
bmc
 
Not sure why my photo links are not displaying photos in the message above, sorry... Photobucket no longer allows linking, so trying google photos.
bmc
 
One more thing, per Dave's comment about load testing. When I put voltmeter across the terminals at the windlass switch, I get 12.7. When I switch the windlass on, volts go immediately to 0. Same across trim tab switches.

Does this suffice as a rudimentary load test, to show that my house battery is toast? (Recalling that everything works fine when motors are running and feeding house circuits).

Thanks,
bmc

AstoriaDave":2lz6bvz9 said:
The first thing to check is your battery terminals. Make sure they make good contact with the major cables which supply power to your vvarious circuits. You will have to disassemble each one, clean the terminals and the lugs, and reattach. The voltmeter readings you report represent continuity, but the voltmeter requires so little CURRENT to show a reading, everything looks fine. But when a heavy current draw item such as your winch, etc., is energized, the high resistance at the battery terminal restricts the current flow so much that the winch (or whatever) cannot function.

BEFORE you clean the battery terminals, do this test: Have an assistant monitor the voltage across the winch circuit before it is switched on, and watch what happens when turned on. You likely will see the voltage drop to a very low value. Do this first to verify that under load, the winch circuit is not operating correctly.

If the winch circuit voltage remaibs high, but the winch does not crank, then the problem is likely at the lugs on the winch instead.
.
Click to expand...
 
Too late for me to try and find the photos, (get error) but Yes, a bad battery can still show 12.75 volts at rest, and immediately go down under load. This is especially true if the charger had just been on it, and there is a surface charge on the plates.

Yes, if the windlass is directly wired to the batteries (and the breaker/switch are good) it does act as a load test. This is true especially if you clamp the leads of the voltmeter to the battery posts, and hit the windlass switch--if it falls to zero--bad battery...(or a direct short, which should blow the breaker).

VSRs are tied to the cabin side of the house switch, which would in fact let the motors run the house electronics as mentioned.
Click to expand...
This also would suggest a bad house battery.. (in 2016 you said this battery was about 4 years old, so this would make it closer to 5 years old --you brought up the old thread :D )

I wire the VSR directly between the start battery and house battery. Not after a switch (which I think you have?). There also can be failure of the switches. I have had a fair number fail thru the years...(cheap marine junk!$$!)
 
thataway":3hebend0 said:
Too late for me to try and find the photos, (get error) but Yes, a bad battery can still show 12.75 volts at rest, and immediately go down under load. This is especially true if the charger had just been on it, and there is a surface charge on the plates.

Yes, if the windlass is directly wired to the batteries (and the breaker/switch are good) it does act as a load test. This is true especially if you clamp the leads of the voltmeter to the battery posts, and hit the windlass switch--if it falls to zero--bad battery...(or a direct short, which should blow the breaker).

VSRs are tied to the cabin side of the house switch, which would in fact let the motors run the house electronics as mentioned.
Click to expand...
This also would suggest a bad house battery.. (in 2016 you said this battery was about 4 years old, so this would make it closer to 5 years old --you brought up the old thread :D )

I wire the VSR directly between the start battery and house battery. Not after a switch (which I think you have?). There also can be failure of the switches. I have had a fair number fail thru the years...(cheap marine junk!$$!)
Click to expand...

All good points and fit my situation well. No breaker tripping when doing the windlass test; I'll repeat anyway with meter at the battery.

You're right re: age of battery--I was trying to remember when I bought the boat and replaced the batteries, and it was in fact 2012 not 2013.

And yes, I think I have switches between house and starter batts and VSRs, so switch(es) are involved.

Now I just need to solve the fact that one starter/motor turns over slowly, and the other needs emergency parallel to turn over at all--could be failing starter motors, or same possible corrosion in starter battery cables. Nothing like chasing multiple issues at once! I did rebuild/clean starter motors once already (and found one had a brush not even connected by the factory, oops!), so if I have to replace, 10 years probably wasn't a bad run, especially with salt.

Thanks again,
bmc
 
Good morning. Just back from Wally World, and it's a good news/bad news sort of thing.

The house battery load tested just fine, giving 1079 CCA of the rated 1150, and at 13.02 V. So "yay, I don't need to buy a new battery!", and "damn, I still don't know what's wrong!"

It occurred to me overnight that the port downrigger/crab pot puller is working just fine, and is directly wired to the house battery terminals. The starboard downrigger is not working fine, it won't spin, and it's wired directly to the hot side of the house battery switch. In my mind, that seems to narrow it down to the two battery cables that run from the house battery to the house switch and to the ground block, would you agree?

Similarly, with good voltage up front at the windlass breaker and controls, but no function, it seems that this would be narrowed down to the hot wires from the house battery to the windlass breaker, and from the windlass breaker to the windlass controls, and the ground cable (again) from the house battery to the ground block.

So guess what's in common there? The ground, of course... So I'll start there.

Being a bit out of my league here, a basic question. If I disconnect both ends of the ground cable from the house batt and ground block, is it possible to test that cable for corrosion, i.e. by measuring ohms resistance or similar?

OK, talk soon.

Ben
 
Wow, Ben, this has turned out to be a difficult chase.

I don't know if an ohmeter test will do the job. It might be worthwhile to steal thataway's trick of a length of heavy gauge wire as a bypass.

Bob's trick is guaranteed to eliminate cable/connector corrosion without a doubt.
 
Hard to believe that the wire would be the problem. It is possible that it is the switch? Agree with Dave, that without some fairly sophisticated test gear that a heavy cable will show up enough difference in resistance to determine that it is the culprit.

Cable--perhaps if for some reason there is a complete break in it.

Too bad you don't have an album (don't know how you got by this long without one!)--then we could see the photos...

The mystery of the first week of July 2017!
 
An update with very good news.

I went to my local chandlery and got supplies to replace:
--All 4 battery cables for the starter batteries (sized these up from 6ga to 4ga on his recommendation)
--Both battery cables for the house battery (kept to 6ga for those)
--Positive cables from house switch to 50A breaker, and breaker to cabin distribution block (sized up again, from 10ga to 8ga)
--Negative cable from aft ground block to cabin distribution block (8ga instead of 10ga also)

I cleaned all connections until they were shiny copper, used plenty of dielectric grease, and reconnected everything with it all just laying in the middle of the boat for now.

Surprise, surprise--the motors start so fast I can't even tell how fast they're turning over, and all house electronics work with house power only, i.e. starter batteries switched off and motors not running.

As a further test, I then disconnected the new ground from aft block to cabin block, and reconnected the original one; everything still worked fine on house power only. So I'm sure I could probably save myself some further torture and pain by just using existing wiring from the breaker forward, but I've come this far...

My hands and back are so damn sore I can barely move them, but so it goes.

Now I just need to route the cables over to the house battery, and thread the new cables up to the cabin, replace about 762 zip ties, and I'll be set for this round. The starboard cockpit pocket has to stay in place--I once made the mistake of removing that (with twin outboards and hydraulic steering--it literally took me daily attempts for three weeks to get it back into place since I couldn't get everything flattened out and curved just so), but once I thread past that with a coat hanger, it's smooth sailing through the galley and helm, since they're exposed.

As an aside, I split the old ground cable from the house battery and removed insulation for about 3 inches to have a look. As you might guess, the "copper" was all pure black, even between the centermost strands.

So, whoever said "it's usually ground" is correct once again, plus a ton of corrosion in the wires. The greybeards (as usual) carry the day! Us salt-and-pepper beards are close to your wisdom, but not quite there yet...

Now then, anyone have a good cure for all the black mildew on the fuel tanks and in the electronics compartment??? :)

I am very grateful for all of you being willing to help, in spite of the stupidity exhibited by some of us (cough, cough).

Best to all,
Ben, apprentice to the apprentice to the apprentice electrician
 
Glad to see you got the issues solved! Be sure and adhesive heat shrink every swaged joint. (Which means every joint--especially with your history of corrosion).

That much corrosion suggests one of two items--either the wire was not tinned properly in the first place (Always use marine grade tinned wire), or the wire was submerged in salt water at some time (could have wicked the salt water up the wire). Some folks use welding cable for the heavy wire in boat--it's cheaper. I have seen that fail due to corrosion.

Whenever I run a wire, I put a 1/8" piece of nylon or dacron cord along that "run" then it is easy to pull the next wire you put in that "run"--when pulling a wire with that cord, have another cord in place, and then re-use the first "string" or cord.
 
Glad you have it figured out. I just want to point out something to every one. You did a load test with the battery hooked up to the boat and using just a volt meter to see if the load dropped when you closed that circuit. voltage dropped to 0 but when you tested just the battery it was ok. This is why a $20 dollar tester is such a great tool. if you had tested as you did and then took off the cables and tested again with just the load tester you would have know right then that is was a connection, wire or ground. Dont get fooled with doing a load test with just a meter. Stating this for everyone reading .
 
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